Diablo® III

Introducing the Dreadnite, thoughts?

85 Orc Death Knight
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Posts: 258
Even though the game itself is not out yet, I began wondering what the new class will be for the first expansion. I speculate the addition of a more or less of more sinister class than a Demon Hunter, one that had been damaged by the demons so much that, he/she only thrives for vengeance and is chaotic good/neutral in its nature, that the vengeance is all that matters for the pain that have been inflicted.

Introducing the Dreadnite:The Impending Nightfall of the Burning Hells

"The Paladins of the Zakarum, once the paragon of hope in the dreaded lands of Sanctuary were a beacon of light that swept through darkness and vanquished the bane of life. However, with the fall of the church and the destruction of worldstone, they were thinned in number as demons and cultists alike had sought them for vengeance.
Not all of them had been as lucky as the Templar who managed to escape with the help of valiant heroes. Under submission, they have been subjected to dark magics unspeakable to the most powerful of wizards, the goal was simple, to transform the banes of evil into its foremost champions. Ones that had already been weakened in their faiths were turned to ruthless killing machines wielding demonic power as of their own.
However, those who had not submitted break free in the wake of their new power, more of an abomination of dark energy, only seeking vengeance against those who had made him/her, and a being that matched the power of the lieutenants of the seven.

The Dreadnite is born, and vengeance on the evil has been sworn...
"

Think of a shield and heavy armor wielding Warlock that can subdue lesser demons and transform into a form resembling greater demons, while can hold his/her ground against the hordes of demons as an indomitable fortress. Analogous to a combination of Death Knight and Warlock, yet much more anti-hero.

However, it should be noted that, contrary to DKs who want to be redeemed or Warlocks that pact with demons for greater power and for protection the of their land/nation/faction, this class of "hero" is a pure manifestation of hatred and vengeance, a being that won't stop until the Burning Hells cease to exist.

As a sidenote, don't confuse this with a Demon Hunter, who only really hunt demons for vengeance and are pretty much righteous in their cause and such, whereas, a Dread Knight is a demonic abomination and a killing machine, anything between them and a demon is only an obstacle to be cleared.

"A Dreadnite will not stop until the Burning Hells cease to exist"

What are your thoughts?
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Posts: 153
So, its a Demon Hunter Paladin. No thanks.

On a more serious note, I'd wager cash the first class(es) to be released in an expansion will be D3's version of the Paladin, and possibly the Druid (shapeshifting, nature themed).
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85 Orc Death Knight
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Posts: 258
No, its a fallen knight that has access to demonic powers, as I had stated in a post I have posted in MMO-C:

The Dreadnite will either be:
- A melee enhanced caster of dark magics where they subdue demons and use them, or consume them to obtain a demonic form, that will still be a hybridization of melee and magic, where they will preferably wield polearms.

- A defensive melee/caster that, uses shield for protection, similar to a dark knight(Disciple of Cain from Warhammer Universe) wielding dark magic and a bit of vampiric in nature. Essentially the shielded dark templar-esque style will be the last vestige of Knighthood left in this "hero".
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Posts: 105
"A Dreadnite will not stop until the Burning Hells cease to exist"

That is so stupid on so many levels in the Diablo universe.

"Humans" aren't in conflict with "the Burning Hells", as Christian mythology in our world.
The Nephalem and their descendents are in conflict with their very own existence, and thus threatens both the High Heavens and the Burning Hells.
Contrary to the High Heavens, the Burning Hells doesn't want "humans" dead, they just want to use them as tools to destroy the High Heavens.
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21/02/2012 11:53Posted by annex
"A Dreadnite will not stop until the Burning Hells cease to exist"

That is so stupid on so many levels in the Diablo universe.

"Humans" aren't in conflict with "the Burning Hells", as Christian mythology in our world.
The Nephalem and their descendents are in conflict with their very own existence, and thus threatens both the High Heavens and the Burning Hells.
Contrary to the High Heavens, the Burning Hells doesn't want "humans" dead, they just want to use them as tools to destroy the High Heavens.


Ohooo...calm down Lore Boi
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85 Orc Death Knight
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Posts: 258

That is so stupid on so many levels in the Diablo universe.

"Humans" aren't in conflict with "the Burning Hells", as Christian mythology in our world.
The Nephalem and their descendents are in conflict with their very own existence, and thus threatens both the High Heavens and the Burning Hells.
Contrary to the High Heavens, the Burning Hells doesn't want "humans" dead, they just want to use them as tools to destroy the High Heavens.


From the looks of it you didn't even really care to read what I have written, in addition, missing out on some major details on the actions of Nephalem, however, this not the place to argue on those...

The being Dreadnite is a creature of hatred spawned from the torment that demons have inflicted on ex-paladins. These beings were supplied with demonic energies to get corrupted while being tormented to build them into the creatures of their own demonic design. This related with a Nephalem's ability to grow in power and demons' efforts to surpass it.
Dreadnite is the ultimate effort of the Burning Hells to use the Nephalem for winning the Holy War.

However, this eventually backfires as these once beneavolent entities were paragons of righteousness and held a strong will unparalled by any other of their kin. Hence, some of them break free and swore vengeance upon those who had inflicted pain upon them.

Not last but the least, the torment inflicted was not a simple one, the Dreadnite before his/her transformation had been subjected to tortures that resulted in his/her death that of which only to be followed by his/her soul to be transferred to a fresher body and reanimated to be retortured by cultists and demons alike, with every cycle embalming the soul with fel energies rendering it more demonic every time.
Those who submitted in the end have become the champions of hell, and those who got soaked with the power not submitting, finally had broken their chains to kill his/her torturers, and flee while leaving a destruction in its wake.

What I'm presenting here is a demonic entity corrupted to the core and is only considered a hero due to his/her aligment to destroy demons.

The significance of this "event" is such that, with worldstone shattered Nephalem are capable of accessing their untapped power, making them the perfect candidate for a champion. Playable Dreadnites are the ultimate sin, experiments of the demon lord Azmodan, that have went downright wrong, the ultimate weapon they have risen, ultimately turned against them.

For a continuation of series beyond D3, they have a greater potency to become villains.
Edited by Zénx on 21/02/2012 12:53 GMT
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Posts: 105
You would have to rewrite the lore about the political alignment of men and demons to have a story to build it on.

Also, you make Diablo into a history formed by design of the author, rather than terminology and definitions in battle - guided by the author.
That is the big difference between Warcraft- (to give and example, even though most fantasy stories applies) and Diablo lore - Warcraft is, just, a good bed night story of typical characters; Diablo, however, has a lot of "relevant" philosophical dilemmas, defining social-realism (within the universe AND analogies of the real world) and it creates a universe where all of our terminology and language is relevant, no matter how abstract the meaning is.
The idea of a "Dreadnite", described by you, only differs from Demon Hunters in a few ways: It is of demonic origin, fighting for men (Demon Hunters are human). It is lead by the vengeance to eliminate one part of the Eternal Conflict (Demon Hunters only seek to defend/reclaim Sanctuary, and despite the name, might also "hunt" angels if they have to). It assumes the presence of human souls, undefined; like in Christian mythology again, or souls in general, even though the lore haven't stated anything of the likes (even the description of Soulstones is stating that it catches the essence of the demons and not actual "souls").

I'm not trying to dismiss your character design idea. Plated Warrior/Death Knight/Warlock sounds awesome.
I'm just telling you that the lore of implementation doesn't suit the Diablo universe.
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Posts: 153
I agree with annex. The general theme doesn't fit at all, but I'd like to see a Paladin ingame, but not an evil one, wtf son? THIS. IS. SANCTUARY !!!!
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85 Orc Death Knight
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Posts: 258
Again, you seem to have wrongly perceived what I had tried to introduce...

Demons have been messing with anything caught in the holy war for long now.
Specifically, Leoric and Izual have been the most significant examples of what they had done to achieve their goals.

Terminology and definitions for battle concepts form a part of the game design. If it is an FRP game you are dealing with, and making suggestions on, you can't deem those aspects mutually exclusive from the design.

A demon hunter is a Nephalem, hunting demons for the purpose of righteousness, and up until now, nowhere related and canon to Diablo Lore states their tendency to go up against the High Heavens. Angels may have been deceptive and manipulative in the past with some of them continuing on, however, contrary to members of Burning Hells who had relentlessly slain any human they had encountrered, no angel of Angiris Council or any lesser angel had massacred the nephalem. What I am trying to introduce is in line and compatible with the currently available lore.

Regarding your argument of seeing this class as analog or a developed version of a another, it is a shallow point of view that you are trying to observe it.
Simply put:
- Demon Hunter, a Nephalem with glowing eyes, hunts down demons, not demonic but a bit sinister in its nature, and champions for Nephalem.

- Dreadnite, a demonic entity, subdues, consumes, eats and kills demons, and does it out of vengeance for the pain that the minions of the seven had afflicted on him/her. If a man is on his/her way in doing, it is just another obstacle to be destroyed.

Regarding how you compare Diablo and Warcraft lores, hints at a lack of knowledge of WC lore on your side. The two storylines differ in the way that Diablo even though younger in development has a more focused storyline due to how the context it spans is rather low in volume(Heaven, Sanctuary, Hell with the domain of Trag'oul and the Others are left untapped). Hence, the density of information is retained in a more or less steady way.

However, in Warcraft, the story starts out in the domain of Titans, spans the great dark beyond, culminating in two major events that we know of, mainly the corruption of Sargeras and the imprisonment of Old Gods. From these branches, we go to two different ways that eventually begin converging in close points in the plot.

For this reason, due to the enormous fabric of Warcraft where many of the philosophical aspects of life has been distributed seem farther away, hence, lose their significance within the vast ocean that this storyline is.

Both are great stories, however, the way they are handled are different, just as how their context are. The only reason I had used references from Warcraft was due to the setting of Diablo not accomodating these concepts. However, don't mistake this as being out of context, the Burning Legion's impact in Warcraft is huge and even though it is frowned upon, training in being a Warlock is still acceptable, thus, they exist and fight side-by-side with the heroes of their faction.
However, with Diablo, any form of demonic connection or the tendency to access their power is a taboo, as the people of Sanctuary had suffered more in the hands of demons that the denizens of Azeroth. Therefore, you cannot simply introduce the art of fel as something casual or simply make a playable cultist.
Moreover, with how the denizens of this setting are tied to this concept, you can't simply ignore the existence of these fel arts.
As the heroes that we command are essentially aspects of the setting that we command, the demonic corruption in a way should be introduced to the gameplay for the player take part in such a major aspect.
Sometimes understanding someone else requires you to think in their shoes. What made Arthas an awesome villain was our ability in experiencing his downfall in his shoes, through our own eyes rather than some other entity telling how that maniac has risen to power.

For this very reason, adding a Dreadnite is an appealing step, due to how the possible need and the lore are compatible.
In Diablo 3, the first of the followers is a Templar, an ex-paladin(Leoric was tied to Leoric, and we find this hero in Tristram Cathedral) whom we save from a possibly terrible destiny.
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85 Orc Death Knight
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It was neither a single nor hundreds of Paladins that were left after the events of the Worldstone Shattering.
Thus, with the demons beginning to roam more and more freely over the lands of Sanctuary through the course of 20 years, it has gotten easier for them to capture the remaining of Paladins. The capturing of these disciplined and highly capable warriors that had given trouble to demons for long is sensible as Paladins would prove to be possible vessels of an elite force that can champion demonic forces.

Following this agenda, the Templar, Kormac was the lucky one, probably captured the last and saved the first, had been saved from the terrible fate that many of his comrades had and were to suffer...

Now the relevant story:

"Every single unlucky Paladin left unsaved, was to be called as Dreadnite, the champions of hell.
They had been subjected to unparalelled torture, where their body had been tortured until all life had left it followed by an unholy exorcism to embalm their spirit in demonic essence, corrupting it and to be reanimated within a newer body, until the subject had submitted.

The demonic essence had provided empowerment, and it was the flaw of their plan that was to backfire on them.

Every consequent application had resulted in them growing in power.

However, they had underestimated the heroic will of a paladin, those of whom that were older than the rest of the others had seen so many atrocities of demons that they had perseveared. Bidding their time, on the border of insanity, some of them had waited, to exact retribution.

However, every day they were growing weaker.

It was at the very moment that these fallen knights had sensed the drawing of the demonic energies to themselves that they had awakened, it was not the chant of Anu they heard anymore, it was the scent of darkness they could smell.

It was time.

They had broken their chains, and relentlessly killed their torturers...

...within their hunger they leaned on the carcass of cultists they had slain. However, the hunger was not quenched.

In its rage the abomination fled into the night, only to encounter other demons. Its mind filled with one thought "Succulent", and plunged into them...

...the hunger, it was suppressed. Upon licking the bones of what was left of these demons, the memories hit the fallen knight. The beast was more human now, yet the pain struck it. The very pain that was carved to its very soul very soul by them...

...the demons...
...it wanted to cause them the very pain that it had been forced to endure...
...and to consume them.

Upon this moment with its roar piercing the night, the Dreadnite had fallen to avenge the fallen knight...

...and it will not stop until the Burning Hells, ceases to exist.

Dreadnites had been unleashed...
Edited by Zénx on 21/02/2012 22:10 GMT
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Does he have dreadlocks?
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85 Orc Death Knight
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Posts: 258
21/02/2012 21:50Posted by GorillaINC
Does he have dreadlocks?


No, with what they have been through, we may not even really be able to see their heads, even then they may not really have any hair left to form dreadlocks.
Edited by Zénx on 21/02/2012 22:24 GMT
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Posts: 274
Drednite..sounds like a alian material that we wud find in the near future that wud lead to our demise
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Posts: 105
Again, you seem to have wrongly perceived what I had tried to introduce...

I think it is awesome that you try to explain yourself, since I miss your meaning, obviously:)

21/02/2012 21:40Posted by Zénx
Terminology and definitions for battle concepts form a part of the game design. If it is an FRP game you are dealing with, and making suggestions on, you can't deem those aspects mutually exclusive from the design.

The difference in the path, as I see it, is that you can either tell a good story, with no thought given to the meaning of the context (general fantasy), or you can tell a good story where everything is well thought of and gives food for thought (Diablo).
To better understand the two different concepts I am presenting, I would like to draw an analogy to paintings:
In the first category the painter Thorsen fits with this reply which he is quoted for (as far as I remember):
Question: "What is the motive supposed to be [looking at the picture]?"
Reply (Thorsen): "What do you think?"
This example demonstrates the unthoughtful creativity, where the outcome can be anything the creator thinks of in the spur of the moment - it may be a masterpiece interpreted by some, and it may be garbage interpreted by others.
In the second category a painting like Mona Lisa, by Leonardo DaVinci, fits. The painting have always been intriguing, and after all of the analysis up untill today; everyone agrees that it is a very progressive and a well-made masterpiece with a lot of deeper meaning (like the innate optical illusions and hidden ink).

Diablo uses and internally defines all of the traditional language used today. No matter how bizarre a concept might seem; in the Diablo universe everything is made possible, believable and "scientific". Suddenly, mysticism has meaning, religion makes sense (is more than the 'working definition' in real life), nothing is "taken on faith" and everything can be experienced. The setting is truly awesome and, in my opinion, deserves recognition for the brilliant lore.
On that note: I would like to redact Warcraft from the first category, after giving it some thought. As I wrote before; I meant for the general fantasy stories to go into the first category, and not necessarily wanting to compare it to Warcraft (I only did it, since you started with Warcraft references).

A demon hunter is a Nephalem, hunting demons for the purpose of righteousness, and up until now, nowhere related and canon to Diablo Lore states their tendency to go up against the High Heavens. Angels may have been deceptive and manipulative in the past with some of them continuing on, however, contrary to members of Burning Hells who had relentlessly slain any human they had encountrered, no angel of Angiris Council or any lesser angel had massacred the nephalem. What I am trying to introduce is in line and compatible with the currently available lore.

I wrote: "hunt", for the purpose of avoiding this misconception. Demon Hunters are totally new, yes. The very first mention of them is (as far as I remember) even in the Book of Cain, where they are described as a bunch of warriors that settled in the crater, because of the abundance of demons, which in turn is a good exercise to harness their skill.
The only indication of their lore, and back-story, states that they hunt demons for the righteousness, to defend their kin. That would imply that any external threat will be met by Demon Hunters, if it be demons or angels. And the arch angel Imperius has already wanted to exterminate everything on Sanctuary once... the lore gives an indication that he still has that in mind. Even according to the End Days prophecy; the angels might give a hand in the trying to get rid of Sanctuary - that is only speculation though.
It's obvious that demons are killing humans and angels aren't - angels are from Anu (life) and demons are from Tathamet (death) - angels can still decide to exterminate (if they are powerful enough, that is) Sanctuary, since Sanctuary isn't a part of the creation, and doesn't belong in the universe (or is the next evolution of the universe).

Even though a demonic entity, fighting for Sanctuary, might be possible, from the perspective of lore, doesn't make it a good choice, since the current understanding of Sanctuary is that the Nephalem and its descendents don't play well with angels and demons - the Nephalem doesn't mix with either part without falling for total corruption, sooner or later.

21/02/2012 21:40Posted by Zénx
Sometimes understanding someone else requires you to think in their shoes. What made Arthas an awesome villain was our ability in experiencing his downfall in his shoes, through our own eyes rather than some other entity telling how that maniac has risen to power.

SPOILER:Which is why we follow Leah...
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Posts: 105
In conclusion:
We might just be miscommunication, or disagreeing on some fundamental part of the lore, but in my honest opinion; a demonic entity, as a class in Diablo 3, fighting for Sanctuary, seems like a really bad idea on many different levels.

Seeing as we have 2 light-, 2 medium-, and only 1 heavy class(es); we need another plate wearing monster-slayer.
I'm all in for the dark Warlock/Death Knight/Warrior mix!
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Posts: 972
I reeeeeally cant see a way for this type of champion to be welcome in cities or amongst other heroes, the whole idea is heaven/sanctuary VS hell, i dont really see why any part of hell would work along the humans as hellspawns wish to rule and torment mortals <.<
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Dreadnite? Are you serious?
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Posts: 130
I would rather have a "zombie" mode which you unlock after finishing inferno and a few of the achievements or something.

Play as a zombie through the single player, only have melee attacks and the puke attack to use and cant equip anything apart from grey items.

Much more fun xD
Edited by Chad on 22/02/2012 10:36 GMT
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48 Dwarf Paladin
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Posts: 34
Why is he named nite and not knight? And what is a nite exactly?
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85 Orc Death Knight
2915
Posts: 258
@annex:
Regarding your first post ending with the spoiler, I'll have to skip replying to it, as it will only derange the topic, as even though not mutually exclusive, debating on the foundation of forming and integrating a storyline in itself is something we should be doing in Lore forums as this one's a class design discussion.
Regarding the spoiler tagged not, as far as we know that character will be accompanying us in our adventures while we essentially will not be filling her/his shoes playing in that character's place. Hence, it is different. Determining the actions of chacracter to a degree and accompanying in its adventures are two distinct forms of gameplay.

Now regarding the ambiguity you seem to have in your perception of the class: The playable Dreadnite is by no means a champion of any side. If its a side that you would like to associate it with, then that it would only side with anything that is willing to kill demons. Essentially what we have in our hands is an avenger in its own right. However, nefarious and bloodthirsty it may be, it retains its intelligence.
As with what it had been through, this once noble guardian had lost faith in what he/she had believe, had lost hope in his/her dreams and had lost his/her love for anything that (s)he held dear in the past.
Whats has become of this once valiant hero is a vengeance seeking and cunning creature that will not stop until it accomplishes its goal of wiping out demons, and will ally with anyone as it sees for this purpose working towards this goal.

For others:

Read the whole post and you will realize that it has much more potential than a shallow putrid mod to a shallow game.

Dread Knight is not fitting, as it is not really descriptive of the character and the name Dread Night is not really aesthetical for use, hence, the name goes the Dreadnite: The Impending Nightfall of the Burning Hells...
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