Diablo® III

Monks and patch 1.0.3

85 Worgen Death Knight
11690
Some agression going on here.


Aggression?

I never complained about survivability as ranged


without any of the defensive capabilities of barbs/monks.


and most wizards certainly do use survivability gear. The pure dps build/gears are gone after the nerfs, so most are getting vit on every gear piece, most are getting their resistances up (some are even stacking more than dps stats), life regen etc.


Vit isn't really a defensive stat. It's a stat everyone should need a sbase, now that things like Force Armour have been changed.

As far as I'm aware, Force Armour is still chosen over Prismatic, and most Wizards I know still don't prio Resitances. At all.

I do know DHs can go pure dps, but that is nowhere near viable as a wizard anymore. So FYI, most ranged are going for surviability stats. Granted, not as much as melee, which is only natural.


As you say DH don't. Nor do WD. And most Wizards don't (stacking Vit doesn't count). So no, 'most' Ranged still don't do anything other than stack offense.

I do agree that having to kite as melee is retarded though


Yeah, and we're not built to do so. We have no manuevorability, and have to use a Melee ability with increased range to do so.

Edit: Thanks Godbeast for the good explanation, in contrast to a certain other poster who just responded with ranting


lol. Ranting.

Condensed information. Hard to type while winding a 3 week old baby.
Edited by Talhearn#2914 on 07/06/2012 20:24 BST
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You had an accident with a quote in there Bitterness, just a fyi :)

Edit: and you've fixed it now ;)
Edited by Godbeast#2720 on 07/06/2012 20:26 BST
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85 Worgen Death Knight
11690
:P

Quick on the edit button! ;)

Shame I usually can't be bothered to fix my spelling mistakes. I blame my keyboard. Messes me up on purpose!
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@ Bitterness

Yes I did say we don't have the defensive capabilities of monks and barbs, and no I was not complaining about it.

I agree vitality isn't defensive stat, but I mentioned it along with the rest to paint a picture of us not going pure offensive. Force Armor is preferred until a certain threshold of resistances, where prismatic becomes betters. Not really sure, but I think that threshold is somewhere near the 600s.

When you say "most" ranged still don't go for anything other than offense, do you ahve any sort of documentation for that, or is it just based on the "wizards you know"? Because a wizard going for nothing else but offense won't get past act 2, which is as it should be imo.

And yes, I called you post ranting. The reason was that you "accused" me of complaining about our survivability when I was not complaining at all, and telling me to suck up the one-shots and get survivability stats, which is exactly what i am already doing on my wizard. You came off abit agressive. I can understand how it is to be forced to play a way your class isn't supposed to do, but I didn't come in here complaining about ranged but you responded as if I did. That's why I called it ranting
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85 Worgen Death Knight
11690
What Barb/Monk defensive capabilities don't you have?

You can gear for Armour/Resitnces/LoH just like we can. You have an abilities that gives you a massive 65% increase to Armour, which is more than anything Monks can get, even though we have a passive that turns Dex into Armour.

You have a passive to reduce Melee damage by 20%. We have a passive to reduce all damage of those we can damage (not easy when you're running away...) by 25%.

You can avoid damage with Slow Time, Teleport.

We can't.

Just what defensive capabilites do Monks have that you don't? Well, apart form the obvious 30% reduction Blizz tacked on before release. But that makes little impact, if any.

When you say "most" ranged still don't go for anything other than offense, do you ahve any sort of documentation for that, or is it just based on the "wizards you know"?


Would you prefer "just about everything I read about WD, DH and Wizards, plus gameplay videos I watch on youtube, all point to Ranged classes stakcing pure offesne and doing things like 9 second boss kills?".

Because a wizard going for nothing else but offense won't get past act 2


Apart form all the Wizards that have, you mean?

The reason was that you "accused" me of complaining about our survivability when I was not complaining at all


You were equating Melee having an easier time versus Teleporting/Fast/Mortar (or any other combination that is the only real thing Ranged have to worry about) mobs, becuase Ranged don't have the same survivability.

They only don't have the same survivability becuase payers *choose* not to.

There are posts on Tanking DHs. I'm sure Wizards can build Tanking specs as well.

I'm talking about 10K DPS, Max Resist/Block/Dodge/Armour types of builds.

Thing is. 'Tanking' builds don't work for Melee, with thier 30% extra damage reduciton. We're forced to kite.

And we're not built for it.

Melee mobs ruin us. And Ranged classes don't have to really worry about Fire chains/Plagues/Descerate/Molten.

Ranged mobs that cause havok for ranged classes ruin us. Becuase we're not designed to play at range, but have to try to crowbar it into our specs to do so.

So yes. We suffer just as much as the other classes facing the same types of mobs that cause them pause. But they don't have anywhere near the issues we also face from 'melee' mobs.

and telling me to suck up the one-shots and get survivability stats, which is exactly what i am already doing on my wizard. You came off abit agressive.


Apologies you took it that way. But I'm not going to sugar coat class balance, when it's so obviously out of wack currently.
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Guys, you both have arguments and you both have points, while we're not in an all-out wrecking match yet is it possible we can take a breath and tone it down? Don't begin accusing each other of being aggressive - it merely provokes that very behavior.

This is an interesting discussion and we all have our thoughts to bring to the table. Take them as that: thoughts. Opinions and proofs backed up by experience or logic. Don't let it devolve into who is ranting and who is not. Don't get provoked if something irks you - point it out but don't be snide about it or get angry, just counter with your own arguments. If you disagree with something or want a further explanation then point it out and ask for it - and comply when the same is done to you.

It is more civilized, constructive, and pleasant that way.
Edited by Godbeast#2720 on 07/06/2012 21:15 BST
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85 Worgen Death Knight
11690
Er, I'm not het up. ;)

Or feeling provoked.

Maybe I needed some smilies above.
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Well, I would say that 30% less damage taken is quite alot, although from what I understand not enough I guess. Unless I am completely wrong, barbs and monks can take more hits than a wizard (3 hits from a normal mob = death for a wizard, and no I am not complaining about it because wizard are not supposed to be able to take as much beatings as barbs or monks).

It could be that we have different definitions of "pure offense". To me it means foregoing defensive stats completely and not having to use defensive abilities. Wizards were foregoing defensive stats and hp before Force Armor and CM spec got fixed, but can't do that anymore. We need HP, and we need resistances. Although we don't prioritize resistances, it doesn't mean we ignore it.

Not sure what posts you have been reading about wizards, but the general advice given on the forums is to get enough HP to make Force Armor work, and get some resistance, and get enough attack speed to be able to kite. And yes, there is a "tank spec", however it is not really viable after act 2, so the "creator" of that build has now abandoned it, and it is mostly used for farm/fun.


You were equating Melee having an easier time versus Teleporting/Fast/Mortar (or any other combination that is the only real thing Ranged have to worry about) mobs, becuase Ranged don't have the same survivability.


Actually I didn't. I was first saying that ranged would have a harder time against mob types such as Soul Lashers. I didn't mention specific affixes at all. Then when I was told melee also had trouble with them, I was interested in why that is.

I really am sorry we obviously came off wrong, because it really do seem like we agree. I have never claimed ranged have a harder time than melee (except agains Soul Lashers etc, which I now understand is not true), and I really am concerned about the state of melee if it is as bad as I am getting the impression from here. I too want melee to play as, well, melee. I am sorry if I in some way provoked you, and I guess my response to you could have been milder, but I was abit annoyed since I came here trying to learn what Monks are having a tough time with, and got met with a response to "suck it up". Again, I am sorry and I hope we can instead focus on a more comstructive discussion :)

That said, what are the concrete suggestions to let monks actually be monks instead of trying to be a melee/range hybrid?
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85 Worgen Death Knight
11690
/salute
/bow

More after winding. ;) And that turned into being thrown up on. lol.

Well, I would say that 30% less damage taken is quite alot, although from what I understand not enough I guess. Unless I am completely wrong, barbs and monks can take more hits than a wizard (3 hits from a normal mob = death for a wizard, and no I am not complaining about it because wizard are not supposed to be able to take as much beatings as barbs or monks).


Yeah, that's what I originally tohugh on paper, and I'll be brutally honest, I wanted originally to play a Spectral Blades 'melee' Wiz, but (among other reasons) thought "But I don't get the 30% damage reduciton, I need that!".

It's just not noticable in Inferno. White mobs can still 1 shot us.

It's all about the gear. And to be frank, being at range and taking zero damage is far better than being in melee with a 30% damage reduciton. ;)

It could be that we have different definitions of "pure offense". To me it means foregoing defensive stats completely and not having to use defensive abilities. Wizards were foregoing defensive stats and hp before Force Armor and CM spec got fixed, but can't do that anymore. We need HP, and we need resistances. Although we don't prioritize resistances, it doesn't mean we ignore it.


Well, Rare's muddy the mix, coming with defensive stats alongside offensive. More importantly, Vit is rolled into a property with Dex (and I assume Int) anyway. So if you want the highest offensive stat, you get Vit for free so to speak. Which is one reason I don't count is as a defensive stat. It's a basic stat everyone needs some amount of. And monks don't scale with Vit (unlike Barbs), we actually get worse, the mor we have, as our heals don't scale...

Not sure what posts you have been reading about wizards, but the general advice given on the forums is to get enough HP to make Force Armor work, and get some resistance, and get enough attack speed to be able to kite. And yes, there is a "tank spec", however it is not really viable after act 2, so the "creator" of that build has now abandoned it, and it is mostly used for farm/fun.


Yeah, get vit now, after the nerf. ;) Once the damage has been done, but I digress, there was also Quickening/Boon abuse from Monks as well. :P

Actually I didn't. I was first saying that ranged would have a harder time against mob types such as Soul Lashers. I didn't mention specific affixes at all. Then when I was told melee also had trouble with them, I was interested in why that is.


Soul Lashers have the nasty ability to pull themselves to you, so you can't kite them. They're fast, and hit like a truck. I think everyone hates them.

Melee also hate Harbingers of Plague and Suicide Bombing Imps. >_< Thing is, Ranged attackers are just as bad.

I really am sorry we obviously came off wrong, because it really do seem like we agree. I have never claimed ranged have a harder time than melee (except agains Soul Lashers etc, which I now understand is not true), and I really am concerned about the state of melee if it is as bad as I am getting the impression from here. I too want melee to play as, well, melee. I am sorry if I in some way provoked you, and I guess my response to you could have been milder, but I was abit annoyed since I came here trying to learn what Monks are having a tough time with, and got met with a response to "suck it up". Again, I am sorry and I hope we can instead focus on a more comstructive discussion :)


The 'suck it up' wasn't personal, it was a more general response for other viewers, well, DH in particular. ;) You want to focus on DEX/MF and cry when you get one shot? That's bordering on hypocracy.

Apologies agian if it came across as a perosnal attack, never intended to be.

I'd usually always reference those directly. :P

That said, what are the concrete suggestions to let monks actually be monks instead of trying to be a melee/range hybrid?


It's a tough call. Blizz are nerfing Inferno. Which will make it easier for Melee, and should allow them to Melee. At some point. But it also makes it easier for Ranged, and the gap between the two remians.

Also Blizz have hinted we'll still have to kite anyway, and can melee once we overgear the Act. /sigh

Ranged classes could be nerfed to make the game harder for Ranged specifically.

Melee could see the inherant 30% buff increased. This would have to be handled with care, as to not upset the low game. But I suppose the buff could increase as the difficulty increases. 30% in normal. 40% in Nightmare, 50% in Hell, 60% in Inferno. That sot of deal. (Number off the top of my head).

Sustianability could be reduced to Melee only. Like LoH doesn't proc from Ranged.

The issues with the Monk class could be addressed. Scaling our heals to make them useful once we reach inferno and can't ignore Vit any more. Giving us an 'escape' ability that actually works. Making 'dodge' as our primary defense stat not suck, and make it apply versus everything. If we're gonna have to stand in the Plague (unlike Ranged), then let us dodge it. Only fair as Barbs are but not around dodging (I dislike binary on/off triggers), but damage mitigation...

There's lots of things that could be done. Guess we're gonna have to wait for 1.1. :(
Edited by Talhearn#2914 on 07/06/2012 22:02 BST
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Yeah, the spectral blades spec, or Blade Dancer as it is so aptly named, is great fun. It actually works early inferno, but sadly loses it's viability later on. But yeah, great fun :)

So I guess that alot of monks' issues lies with the non-scaleable heals, forcing you to go LoH, which in turn doesn't work because you can't stay in melee?
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85 Worgen Death Knight
11690
So I guess that alot of monks' issues lies with the non-scaleable heals, forcing you to go LoH, which in turn doesn't work because you can't stay in melee?


Indeed. ;) Well, we can. As long as Serentiy and Blind are up.

And we're receiving a triple threat nerf with the IAS change.

It will reduce;

Our damage
Our resource generation
Our survivability thorugh LoH

But Inferno is getting easier. So we reamin the same, while Ranged classes get an even easier ride.
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But Inferno is getting easier. So we reamin the same, while Ranged classes get an even easier ride.


Except, IAS is the single most important stat for kiting, so a nerf to IAS is a nerf to our ability to kite. I get it though, it will most likely hurt you alot more than us. Just saying it's not like wizards won't get hurt by the nerf as well. Also, we don't really know the extent to the nerf. It could be detrimental, or it could be perfectly manageable. Will have to wait and see.

Meh, and I was so looking forward to my monk hardcore character in inferno :) Doing perfectly fine now in act 2 nightmare, but which class wouldn't? I really want monk to be on par with the rest, because it is such a fun class to play
Edited by Absurdum#2752 on 07/06/2012 22:13 BST
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Absurdum, can you give me a quick crash course in the relation between kiting and IAS for wizards? My experience with playing a DH implies the opposite, with a heavy, slow, 2-hander xbow making stutterstepping easier.
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Make pony level even easier = profit LOL
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85 Worgen Death Knight
11690
I've just dusted off my level 1 DH, and quickly levelled to 10.

First thing I noticed was not only does Hatred regen automaticaly, but when you use a Hatred generator, you always regain that hatred.

Even if you just spam it at nothing.

You can't stand still and spam FoT to generate Spirit, no...

But you can just stand stil and spam your resource generator at nothing to build yourself back up again as a DH. And I bet Blizzards justification is "hey, Hatred regenerates *anyway*..."

>_<
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Monks should get an "innate" ability to generate spirit at 0.5 per second.

Even without hitting anything.
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nerfing stuff that makes monk viable as tank, its like blizz says to all those who playes monk " !@#$ of and drop dead OR re roll" what a way to make a game!
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they shuldnt nerf inferno, and you shuld just start farming and stop crying... or reroll already...
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I still think patch 1.0.3. will make things better (not perfect) overall, even with the IAS nerf. One of the lead designers clearly stated what is the focus of patch 1.0.3.

I'll state up front that I do think there's a disparity between melee and ranged, and I would like to see that closed. I feel like if I talk a lot about thought processes and design philosophy and don't state this up front people will lose the forest for the trees and conclude we think everything is fine. So I'll say it again: melee vs. ranged disparity is not fine, changes are being made, and even if you disagree with the approach outlined below we can hopefully have the common ground that the current situation needs improvement.


The whole text with explanations about how the changes are aimed at "nerfing" ranged classes and preventing some of their cheap tactics can be found here http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5590647017#8
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18 Blood Elf Hunter
0
DH's will get their !@# shoed in the new patch. we all know that anyone who rolls a DH is an unskilled easy mode wannabe. even with the inferno nerf they'll still getting one shoted and with the 5 times more repair bills they'll all go bankrupt.
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