Diablo® III

Life steal will ever be better than LoH? (for monks)

My question begins from this article
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/blog/5235297/5235296#lifesteal
which is saying that Life steal is going to be better in few months.

Now what I'm wondering is if it's going to be useless form monks or not.

For example I have 20k dps which means 10k damage per hit in my case.
Life on Hit gives me 1500hp for every 10k damage.
Life steal gives me 10k x 10%(lets say 2 items with 5% each) x 0.2(from inferno reduction of 80%)= 200 life per hit.

Now if you compare the numbers this means that in the next "few months" I must increase my damage output by at least 700% which equals 140.000 dps

Honestly do you think monks will ever have these numbers ?
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85 Worgen Death Knight
11335
No.

It will be useless.

To match a moderate 900 LoH, you will need aorund the region of 250k DPS. After enemy DR.

Both of the stats scale with mitigation, and both of them scale with Attack Speed at the same rate, but Life Steal scales with your weapon damage and damage output. Life Steal also scales better in AOE situations.


How does LoH scale with Mitigation? LS obviosuly does. You deal lower damage, you Steal lower amounts.

How does LS scale better with AoE? If your ST LoH is greater than your ST LS, then adding in extra mobs *will not* change this.

And this is from one of the games designers?
Edited by Talhearn#2914 on 19/06/2012 15:09 BST
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Yeah it will be when you get sth like 200k+ dps.
Until then it sucks :D
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Note the key words here are "Life on hit". Life leech comes from all damage done, like sweeping wind, the ticking damage rune to conviction aura and other things.

The dps displayed in the character window does not match the damage output since all skills have damage modifiers on them, and some(most) hit more than one target.

Life on hit doesnt care that you strike hits 6 targets, it doesnt care that it crits and it doesnt care about damage that does not come from direct attacks. Life leech does.

Wether it will become a straight up superior stat I dont know, but it is already a reasonable alternative as long as you use the skills that benefit from it the most.
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No.

It will be useless.

To match a moderate 900 LoH, you will need aorund the region of 250k DPS. After enemy DR.

Both of the stats scale with mitigation, and both of them scale with Attack Speed at the same rate, but Life Steal scales with your weapon damage and damage output. Life Steal also scales better in AOE situations.


How does LoH scale with Mitigation? LS obviosuly does. You deal lower damage, you Steal lower amounts.

How does LS scale better with AoE? If your ST LoH is greater than your ST LS, then adding in extra mobs *will not* change this.

And this is from one of the games designers?


It scales with YOUR mitigation; as you mitigate more damage (your effective hp increase) the heals on yourself become more effective.
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it will be better at some point, otherwise it will be fixed

"
Wyatt Cheng: I'm happy with where Life on Hit is and keeping an eye on Life Steal.
Life Steal was far and away the best stat internally, which is why we put in modifiers to reduce the effectiveness at higher difficulty levels.A lot of theorycrafters have (correctly) ball-parked the effectiveness of Life on Hit as being roughly 3x as strong as Life Steal. So it's probably pretty easy to see that before we put in the 80%, Life Steal was 2x as good as Life On Hit. We knew we had to do something.
We played with numbers as low as 10%, and as high as 50% penalty. The reason Life Steal settled at 20% is because over the next few months, the relative value of Life Steal will probably go up, whereas Life on Hit will not. Both of the stats scale with mitigation, and both of them scale with Attack Speed at the same rate, but Life Steal scales with your weapon damage and damage output. Life Steal also scales better in AOE situations.
To make a long story short, Life Steal is tuned around where we expect DPS output to be months from now. As people do more damage, get more survivability, and generally find they can AOE things more than they used to, I expect the value of Life Steal to go up.
"
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never forget, life on hit has modifiers as well, so if you have 900 life on hit you dont get 900 from every hit
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85 Worgen Death Knight
11335
It scales with YOUR mitigation; as you mitigate more damage (your effective hp increase) the heals on yourself become more effective.


While totally accurate, it's shady use of explaining stat scaling. The *amounts* of sustian they provide don't change with your mitigation. Hell, you might just as well claim that your damage scales with your mititgation, as you're alive longer, you deal more damage...

Still, LS does scale with enemy mitigation, while LoH doesn't. ;)

never forget, life on hit has modifiers as well, so if you have 900 life on hit you dont get 900 from every hit


Sometimes you get more! ;)
Edited by Talhearn#2914 on 19/06/2012 15:53 BST
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19/06/2012 15:52Posted by Thiak
never forget, life on hit has modifiers as well, so if you have 900 life on hit you dont get 900 from every hit


I never check this out but I dont believe it. Why would blizzard want to scale it? Just to make things even worse ?
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85 Worgen Death Knight
11335
Check out Thaya's thread. It's linked there.

Most skills give reduced LoH, notably, FoT - TC and WotHF - FoF give more.
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Wel, if what you say is true, that 900 LoH gives not 900 life but les, then you are telling me disturbing news. Under no circumstance, a clear number should not be messed up, but for the sake of balancing.

I'm sorry but things are going very bad if its true.
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85 Worgen Death Knight
11335
Seriously, read the thread and look at the attachment before getting any more pessimistic.
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LoH in its current state is fine apart from the prices of AH items lol.

Good info about life steal. I suppose for aoe builds it will excel and used with LoH it will mean sweeping wind will tick us a small amount of HP as well as life regen and LoH.

Together this should make us the tanks we're meant to be hopefully. :D

Although from memory life steal is only available on weapons so we're only going to be able to get like 4-5% max. Would probably work well with Diabo builds too with higher base dmg of spirit aoe moves.

Good food for thought as we gear up :D
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Everyone who says Life Steal sucks have never compared it with LoH vs packs of mobs. Currently in solo inferno I have 2 weapons with 3% of lifesteal. I don't know how comes that from 1 hit on 1 creep I healed for 450 HP (calculations says I shouldn't have healed that much) But Attacking 3+ creeps already gives me around 2k per hit. I've tested that multiple times, even though that contradicts calcualtions - the effect remains. Fighting 5-6+ creeps already heals for 4-5k

Whatever you say about LoH - it's probably only good when you fight less then 3 creeps or if you have bad AoE attacks. For Monk with AoE attacks Life Steal might be even better then LoH.
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23/06/2012 13:43Posted by Scotty
Everyone who says Life Steal sucks have never compared it with LoH vs packs of mobs. Currently in solo inferno I have 2 weapons with 3% of lifesteal. I don't know how comes that from 1 hit on 1 creep I healed for 450 HP (calculations says I shouldn't have healed that much)


Thanks Scotty. Im not sure what These LoH fans are on about. I have two Fist weapons Each with 3% lifesteal and 50 lpSS. I realized the strength Of Life steal when i moved from My Daibo Wave of Light Spam to Duel Wielding. LS procs on All types of Dmg. We're talking exploding Palm Chain reactions, Wave of Light hitting 20 creeps At once with 150k Crit.

The only downside to Lifesteal Is Aoe. when i attack single targets the benefits are less, unless Im using Sweeping wind, Then i get a Moderate 250-300 hp/sec.

I understand it weakness so Im going to get a A piece of gear, perhaps an Amulet to add LoH for Boss duels. But Life steal...if you do enough Aoe just can't be beat.
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85 Worgen Death Knight
11335
And again, with 6% LS (the *max* a Monk can get...), you would need around 250k DPS to out heal what you could get from a moderate LoH (say 900, can get that from a single weapon) coupled with using the best LoH attack and around a 2.0 Attack speed.

Any Monk got near 250k DPS?
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Stack both...TADA
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And again, with 6% LS (the *max* a Monk can get...), you would need around 250k DPS to out heal what you could get from a moderate LoH (say 900, can get that from a single weapon) coupled with using the best LoH attack and around a 2.0 Attack speed.

Any Monk got near 250k DPS?


If i hit 6 monsters for 25k each (my current average damage with wave of light), that is an instant 150k damage in 1 second, assuming i don't crit for 75k.

Now say i hit ~9 monsters (happens a lot in act 2 for me) i just did 225k damage in 1 hit(assuming no crits).

From 6 monsters i'd get 1.8k health, from 9 i'd get 2.7k. that's instant, with no crits, and life per spirit spent not included.

IMHO life steal would be for a 2h active skill, skill build, and LoH would be for a 1h/ board, DW auto attack skill build.

If your spamming cyclone/wave of light/7ss, your definitely going get more health from life steal than from LoH.
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19/06/2012 16:03Posted by Kind
never forget, life on hit has modifiers as well, so if you have 900 life on hit you dont get 900 from every hit


I never check this out but I dont believe it. Why would blizzard want to scale it? Just to make things even worse ?


Life on hit for wizards spectral blade is 1/3 rd of the life on hit you have in you character sheet, and only proc once. Not the three slashes from spectral blade for example.

Just an example from my mage knight :)
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What are people talking about? LF and LoH has only 1 difference and that is it. Period. the difference is not attack speed but attack damage.

With LoH you heal a fixed amount every time you hit a target or aoe multiple enemies.

With life steal you heal a fixed % of the damage you do, obviously this will change due to min/max damage on your weapon and enemy armor/resists and even blocking.

Both life steal and Life on Hit benefit equally from attack speed. Why? because 1 hit or 10 hits pr sec produce the same result if the values are equal.

Example:
100 LoH on a weapon with 1.00 attack speed. After 10 hits solo target you gained 1000 health back. Now lets say you got a 25% speed increase (shrine) your 10 hits would have given you 1000 life still, no difference but the time it took you to deliver those 10 hits was shorter.

Lifesteal, lets say you do 1000 damage with also 1.00 speed. and your life steal is 10% that means you will LS 100 health every hit on solo targets. Now if you got the same speed buff as the first example, you would also not see a difference aside from hitting faster but you arent getting more health pr hit.

my point is that they are equally good when it comes to speed. The real difference is the damage. LoH will give you a fixed amount of health regardless of what spell you use, it doesnt matter if you use a mega bomb one shot spell which does 700k damage, or a small stun skill which only does 50 damage. it will heal the same.

Life steal on the otherhand will heal a fixed amount of the damage you do.

Thats how simple it is, why are there some people saying that LoH is worse than LS or the other way around? LoH is meant for lower level chars because it gives them the benefit of getting large portions of their health back regardless of their damage.

Example:
A monk with 10k health and 1000 LoH pr hit. if the monk went down to 5k health from an attack, he could heal himself up quite fast. But lets say this monk was an awesome tank which had 60k health then LoH would take longer to heal him up. Get it?

Imo LoH is a stronger stat because you can rely on the amount healed most of the time (dodge immune etc..) compared to LS where your min/max damage comes to play on top of inferno mobs having high resistances and that requires you to have even more damage for LS to work.

/rant
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