Diablo® III

Diablo 3 - The road NOT taken

13/11/2012 11:42Posted by Uzsibox
Once probabilities start to get in the 10⁻¹² realm, they esentially do not exist. Statistically, you could have a water glass spontaneously boil while the bottom freezes, or be able to run through a wall. But the probability is so low it simply does not happen. There IS such thing as "thresold of non-believability" (sp?). The 13 identical drops is way way beyond that.

it might be or it might be not, truth is no one has any idea

as stated before, you have no idea how to calculate drop probability.
not to say theres as innate less randomness of set and legs compared to rares, since the leg change half of their possibe stats is fixed and you only roll a range.

Already did...even if the probability function is not flat, the order of magnitude stands. Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to move into more productive discussion.
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it might be or it might be not, truth is no one has any idea

as stated before, you have no idea how to calculate drop probability.
not to say theres as innate less randomness of set and legs compared to rares, since the leg change half of their possibe stats is fixed and you only roll a range.

Already did...even if the probability function is not flat, the order of magnitude stands. Now, if you don't mind, I'm going to move into more productive discussion.


No you didn't.

You have NO idea how they generate the stats on items.

So you accuse without proof at all. If I were Blizzard I could sue you for spreading false information based on invented programming code as you don't have access to their programming.
Edited by BenBoske#2907 on 13/11/2012 11:49 GMT
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My arguments about present day DB's security to check on consistency of EACH unique cell within each table and are based on valid facts and that is the backbone of our industry, banking and knowledge base.


In theory yes.

I strongly doubt anyone was sitting in a basement SQL injecting 'em Blizz servers (but who knows!) - but you could consider an exploit to be working. If by any chance they messed up somehow in the sense that the sever would generate the item every time, it would in fact come into existing, including a valid primary key.

Duping would still be a lot more likely explanation (probably exploitation of some mechanic) than attributing it to 'chance', at least if you take random for what it's supposed to be, completely random, rather than biased, rigged random. The latter wouldn't be random at all, by my definition anyway.

Otherwise giving you the choice between jumping off a bridge, or jumping in front of a train would still be random - except I just simply robbed you of all other options, and limited your alternatives artificially.
Edited by Erbsenbrei#2897 on 13/11/2012 11:50 GMT
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My arguments about present day DB's security to check on consistency of EACH unique cell within each table and are based on valid facts and that is the backbone of our industry, banking and knowledge base.


In theory yes.

I strongly doubt anyone was sitting in a basement SQL injecting 'em Blizz servers (but who knows!) - but you could consider an exploit to be working. If by any chance they messed up somehow in the sense that the sever would generate the item every time, it would in fact come into existing, including a valid primary key.

Duping would still be a lot more likely explanation (probably exploitation of some mechanic) than attributing it to 'chance', at least if take random for what it's supposed to be, completely random, rather than biased, rigged random. The latter wouldn't be random at all, by my definition anyway.

Otherwise giving you the choice between jumping off a bridge, or jumping in front of a train would still be random - except, or I simply robbed you of all, and limited your alternatives artificially.


Also ,in practice.

Because the database is constantly monitoring the consistency of its ID values.

You simply can't temper with it before a HUGE RED alert goes off in your consistency table.

And I mean it IS indicated with RED BOLD error codes.

believe me.

99.99999999 % of the time it is easy traced and due to some network hic up, but stating one can just enter a SQL DB and copy ID from one table to another (duping) is looking too much at Hollywood films. And yes programming errors are traced in the exact same way if it would lead to unjust doubling of things (the Asian case remember).

the only thing to see here is your second thought about RND values.

But as long as Blizzard just doesn't publish its RND algoritm for higher end Legendary gear, it is useless to even discuss this matter with adding numbers as such, because numbers mean NOTHING unless you can show proof of their algoritm.
Edited by BenBoske#2907 on 13/11/2012 11:58 GMT
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Read how SQL SERVER. Technology works first.

You only look at an end result of identical items of which you have NO clue how they are being generated. Do you have the source code of their RND function ? Nope.

Trust me : present day databases can control any forms of tempering with their tables within mili seconds.


Dude there are tons of videos duping items on the web. You say you know about SQL DB and server infrastructure yet you don't know that this stuff can NOT work as intended no matter what your level of competence is. It happens all the time on open platforms that are used by millions of people.

On the Asians servers (at some point) all the top Demon Hunters had the SAME manticore w/ same stats which is statisticaly impossible and is a clear proof of duping on a prettty massive scale.
Edited by FMCorps#2190 on 13/11/2012 14:26 GMT
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The rigged RNG is another theory but...it fails to explain some stuff:

http://www.diabloprogress.com/item/16128802: No copies.
http://www.diabloprogress.com/item/15848657: No copies.
http://www.diabloprogress.com/item/16706976: No copies.
http://www.diabloprogress.com/item/15848658: No copies.
http://www.diabloprogress.com/item/15813809: No copies. Interestingly, this is an Echoing Fury.
http://www.diabloprogress.com/item/14990048: ONE copy...wait, one of the guy who wore it is not seen with it anymore. Seems like he sold it to the other one.
And I could go on and on...Surely all of the above is godly stuff!!
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Read how SQL SERVER. Technology works first.

You only look at an end result of identical items of which you have NO clue how they are being generated. Do you have the source code of their RND function ? Nope.

Trust me : present day databases can control any forms of tempering with their tables within mili seconds.


Dude there are tons of videos duping items on the web. You say you know about SQL DB and server infrastructure yet you don't know that this stuff can NOT work as intended. It happens all the time.

On the Asians servers all the top Demon Hunters have the SAME manticore w/ same stats which is statisticaly impossible and is a clear proof of duping on a prettty massive scale.


I explained the fact you can't dupe on DB servers above. You set the discussion back to the beginning of the thread which means you are too lazy to discuss and read.

i'll say it one more time: as long as you have NO idea what the code is to generate High end Legendary weapons you have no case at all.

As the back bone server structure simply doesn't allow duplicate items without HUGE warning alerts, you have no leg to stand on.

In fact you are a player with ZERO knowledge of SQL server technology. I have been a SQL server administartor for 7 years... and I KNOW what I am talking about .

there can be NO duping on present day DB's without setting off HUGE alerts within milli seconds.

That includes programming errors which would set off these alerts too (if they resulted in copying ID's). In fact that last one happened to Diablo 3 on the Asian server at the end of May (and it was a clear programming error since items were copied by accident after doing X,Y and Z in game).

But of course the control tables did no longer match and set off the usual alert. Everything was described by Blizzard and rolled back to the previous snapshot.

Nothing to see here really. Any Hi end DB manager will tell you the same stuff. Duping of items is impossible within such structures without setting off alarms.

Is it that difficult to understand ?????
Edited by BenBoske#2907 on 13/11/2012 12:18 GMT
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In fact you are a player with ZERO knowledge of SQL server technology. I have been a SQL server administartor for 7 years... and I KNOW what I am talking about .


You are right however i have been doing QA for internet platforms for the past 8 years and I've seen more than my fair share of bugs X-D

I can guarantee that at some point there has been item duping just watch the videos they are easy to find.

It's possible that duping is triggered through a bug in the client and not the DB right? It's also possible to mess things up through cross site scripting and stuff like that. No open platform are safe from these kind of problems as far as i know.
Edited by FMCorps#2190 on 13/11/2012 12:20 GMT
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In theory yes.

I strongly doubt anyone was sitting in a basement SQL injecting 'em Blizz servers (but who knows!) - but you could consider an exploit to be working. If by any chance they messed up somehow in the sense that the sever would generate the item every time, it would in fact come into existing, including a valid primary key.

Duping would still be a lot more likely explanation (probably exploitation of some mechanic) than attributing it to 'chance', at least if take random for what it's supposed to be, completely random, rather than biased, rigged random. The latter wouldn't be random at all, by my definition anyway.

Otherwise giving you the choice between jumping off a bridge, or jumping in front of a train would still be random - except, or I simply robbed you of all, and limited your alternatives artificially.


Also ,in practice.

Because the database is constantly monitoring the consistency of its ID values.

You simply can't temper with it before a HUGE RED alert goes off in your consistency table.

And I mean it IS indicated with RED BOLD error codes.

believe me.

99.99999999 % of the time it is easy traced and due to some network hic up, but stating one can just enter a SQL DB and copy ID from one table to another (duping) is looking too much at Hollywood films. And yes programming errors are traced in the exact same way if it would lead to unjust doubling of things (the Asian case remember).

the only thing to see here is your second thought about RND values.

But as long as Blizzard just doesn't publish its RND algoritm for higher end Legendary gear, it is useless to even discuss this matter with adding numbers as such, because numbers mean NOTHING unless you can show proof of their algoritm.


You haven't read what I stated, or didn't quite understand it.

If there's an exploit that lets the server generate an item that already exists, as if it was a new one, it would automatically be created under a different primary key. No alerts going off there, as far as consistency is concerned. The duping would however base on exploits within the server mechanics.

I highly doubt that any possible dupe exploits would take place on the client side.

At best Blizzard could filter if any individual received an extraordinary amount of items in a short span (which everyone does, so good luck with that) and they happen to be identical.
Edited by Erbsenbrei#2897 on 13/11/2012 12:23 GMT
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I am not talking about bugs.

I am talking about the CONSISTENCY of ID tables and cells in database server technology.

Duplicated unique items can not be generated (by accident or on purpose) without setting off a huge red alert with every snapshot of the DB taken.

And no EVERY item is stored on the DB side.

Oh God it is like talking to children and try to explain something more advanced than Sesam street.

We talk about the CORE check mechanisms of SQL servers, Oracle, etc...

Those tables NEED to be full proof in their CHECKING consistency.

Got that ?
Edited by BenBoske#2907 on 13/11/2012 12:26 GMT
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I am not talking about bugs.

I am talking about the CONSISTENCY of ID tables and cells in database server technology.

Duplicated unique items can not be generated (by accident or on purpose) without setting off a huge red alert with every snapshot of the DB taken.

And no EVERY item is stored on the DB side.


An ID is typically auto-generated by the server.

If I managed to make the server belief that item X, whose ID is 1, dropped again, the server would insert it under ID 2 with the same stats, thus it would acquire legitimate virtual existence.
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As the back bone server structure simply doesn't allow duplicate items without HUGE warning alerts, you have no leg to stand on.

In fact you are a player with ZERO knowledge of SQL server technology. I have been a SQL server administartor for 7 years... and I KNOW what I am talking about .

there can be NO duping on present day DB's without setting off HUGE alerts within milli seconds.

Nothing to see here really. Any Hi end DB manager will tell you the same stuff. Duping of items is impossible within such structures without setting off alarms.

Is it that difficult to understand ?????

We do understand, and personally I think you are correct.
But I didnt proclaimed that blizzard got no alerts, still, I do think theres duping.
Theres a different. You cant argue math, the chances of the earth to fall into black hole occured by particle accelerator is higher then 15 exactly the same echoing fury and 30 same manticores (1303.9 dps?).
Who knows? Maybe blizzard just dont give a fu*k?
Edited by DemonHunter#1405 on 13/11/2012 12:29 GMT
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I am not talking about bugs.

I am talking about the CONSISTENCY of ID tables and cells in database server technology.

Duplicated unique items can not be generated (by accident or on purpose) without setting off a huge red alert with every snapshot of the DB taken.

And no EVERY item is stored on the DB side.


An ID is typically auto-generated by the server.

If I managed to make the server belief that item X, whose ID is 1, dropped again, the server would insert it under ID 2 with the same stats, thus it would acquire legitimate virtual existence.


Wrong: the minute a duplicate would be created the snapshot would give an error in the consistency table.

be that by programming error or on purpose.

We talk about checking the consistency. D2 is not consistent in this case.
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What about items that have identical stats but different IDs do you think they would trigger an alert? Lol do you want a list of games in which have you can find item duping flaws (Borderand 2 LOL)?

Duping happened at some point however as you so vehemently pointed in your previous post without the details it's just speculation. But it did happen on the Asian server at least that's for sure.
Edited by FMCorps#2190 on 13/11/2012 18:24 GMT
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As the back bone server structure simply doesn't allow duplicate items without HUGE warning alerts, you have no leg to stand on.

In fact you are a player with ZERO knowledge of SQL server technology. I have been a SQL server administartor for 7 years... and I KNOW what I am talking about .

there can be NO duping on present day DB's without setting off HUGE alerts within milli seconds.

Nothing to see here really. Any Hi end DB manager will tell you the same stuff. Duping of items is impossible within such structures without setting off alarms.

Is it that difficult to understand ?????

We do understand, and personally I think you are correct.
But I didnt proclaimed that blizzard got no alerts, still, I do think theres duping.
Theres a different. You cant argue math, the chances of the earth to fall into black hole occured by particle accelerator is higher then 15 exactly the same echoing fury and 30 same manticores (1303.9 dps?).
Who knows? Maybe blizzard just dont give a fu*k?


But how many times do I need to tell you that NUMBERS mean nothing IF you don't have the exact generating programming code for certain stats on items ?

it is clear 15 exact items can exist in this game...

That's the only thing one can say. The rest depends on how much RND they include within their code isn't it ?

Who said that every item in this game is complete random anyway ?
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What about items that have identical stats but different IDs do you think they would trigger an alert? Lol do you want a list of games in which there have been item duping flaws (Borderand 2 LOL)?

Duping happened at some point however as you so vehemently pointed in your previous post without the details it's just speculation. But it did happen on the Asian server at least that's for sure.


ID stands for the unique data in each cell not an item in a game per se. It is overall common DB language.

the Asian duplicate was due to a programming error but Blizzard's DB immediately reported a checksum error and so the server was rolled back to the previous snapshot before the error. Common practice.

Each cell is constantly monitored and checked upon its consistency. When a table no longer is consistent it sets out an alert.

--

The only thing you could say is that Blizzard would ignore such alerts, but even then the game as such would be !@#$ed up in a matter of minutes.

All interaction between the tables could even result in giving thousands of errors in a few seconds time..

Alarms would go off anywhere in those tables.

No one could ignore it. It could lead to the crashing of the game.

As for games which have LOCAL stored items, of course tempering with such local items is easy but this can't be the case with server based games with items stored on these advanced DB tables.

Are server games full proof ? No of course not: everything that is STILL client based can be tempred with.

Speed hacks, Bots, floating characters etc... those are still client side data. But items (and their value) as such are only stored on the server side and so tempering with this kind of data would directly result in alarms in the consistency tables of their DB's.

Even if it would happen (by accident ONCE at the end of MAY) it would never be consistent and traced back to where it happened.
Edited by BenBoske#2907 on 13/11/2012 12:52 GMT
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The only thing you could say is that Blizzard would ignore such alerts, but even then the game as such would be !@#$ed up in a matter of minutes.


The problem was patched and fixed however it wasn't fixed quickly enough that it had no impact on the game. Cause there are lots of players who had the time to see the problem.

So we went from

Accept you have no leg to stand on to support long term duping within present day database technology and security ... while you have NO CLUE how Blizzard "steers" its random stats of the higher end Legendary gear.


to yeah it did happen it was a "programmming error".

BB excuse my french but you're a clown.
Edited by FMCorps#2190 on 13/11/2012 14:30 GMT
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The only thing you could say is that Blizzard would ignore such alerts, but even then the game as such would be !@#$ed up in a matter of minutes.


The problem was patched and fixed however it wasn't fixed quickly enough that it had no impact on the game. Cause there are lots of players who had the time to see the problem.

So we went from

Accept you have no leg to stand on to support long term duping within present day database technology and security ... while you have NO CLUE how Blizzard "steers" its random stats of the higher end Legendary gear.


to yeah it did happen it was a "programmming error".

BB excuse my french but your a clown.


At least I am a clown that explained SQL server technology and how server based games can prevent duplicating of items with ease...to technical noobs... :)

BTW I am not French , where did you get that message? I am fluid in 4 languages though and I am from Belgium (most Belgians already speak 3 languages if they come from Flanders).
Edited by BenBoske#2907 on 13/11/2012 13:02 GMT
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My view how to make the game better:
-endgame: there will never be a point where it is the end, the key is the desire to re-play again and keep up this desire
-currently there are only three acts (act 3 and 4 for me is only one act together), it really needs at least one new and BIG act with lot more randomness then the current maps. I hope Blizz already working on the first and not the last expansion.
-since the only difference between characters are the items, we would need more options. That would mean new legendary/set items, crafting should be reworked as it is not really useful now. Also there are lot more possibilites could be in gems and sockets. Crafting could add enchantments to already existing items, etc.
-drops: I know high-end players are getting lots of legendaries, but casual players like myself don't, the game currently is not really rewarding for us and it would need to change. To those who care about the economy, the very best items will always be expensive, no matter what
-since there is no point starting a second character from the same class, it would be good to have new classes also with expansion

Zalan
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Read how SQL SERVER. Technology works first.

You only look at an end result of identical items of which you have NO clue how they are being generated. Do you have the source code of their RND function ? Nope.

Trust me : present day databases can control any forms of tempering with their tables within mili seconds.

Read and inform you first then post an excuse.

You can start by reading the Blizzard posts about the Asian incident back in May. It was all standard procedure known to everyone who is working within such server administration.

Back tracked, rolled back with the next snapshot, problem solved within minutes.


Not again. I am now sure at least, that you must be trolling. You spout the same bull!@#$ for several threads and when someone takes the time to explain to you that 3 identical items are literally impossible backed up by probablity you just ignore it, stop posting and look for a new thread to just repeat the same pattern again.

Whatever floats your boat bro, im not letting you push my buttons anymore.

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5825402547?page=7

The SLQ crap doesnt matter to me, but your arguments have been ripped to pieces several times.
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