Diablo® III

Diablo 3 - The road NOT taken

85 Draenei Shaman
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@BenBroske,
You bash others for not knowing how blizzards code works, yet you talk as though you're an expert on this very field.
You don't know a duping exploit in D3 would yield the same ID as the original item.
You don't even know blizzard uses SQL.
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Read how SQL SERVER. Technology works first.

You only look at an end result of identical items of which you have NO clue how they are being generated. Do you have the source code of their RND function ? Nope.

Trust me : present day databases can control any forms of tempering with their tables within mili seconds.

Read and inform you first then post an excuse.

You can start by reading the Blizzard posts about the Asian incident back in May. It was all standard procedure known to everyone who is working within such server administration.

Back tracked, rolled back with the next snapshot, problem solved within minutes.


Not again. I am now sure at least, that you must be trolling. You spout the same bull!@#$ for several threads and when someone takes the time to explain to you that 3 identical items are literally impossible backed up by probablity you just ignore it, stop posting and look for a new thread to just repeat the same pattern again.

Whatever floats your boat bro, im not letting you push my buttons anymore.

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5825402547?page=7

The SLQ crap doesnt matter to me, but your arguments have been ripped to pieces several times.


No they haven't.

The arguments were even proven by a Blizzard statement when they rolled back an Asian data base server back in May.

You just want to insult people who calmy explain why a server controlled game with a SQL server technology will trace ANY tempering with game data in a matter of minutes. (be that by accident or on purpose).

I am sorry if that disturbs your usual conspiracy theories but do not lie to me ANYONE on this site ever ripped this database lecture to pieces...

On the contrary I think a lot of technology noobs can appreciate now how and why Diablo 3 never launched as a client side game.

And it will never have an independant playable client side disk either.
Edited by BenBoske#2907 on 13/11/2012 13:25 GMT
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@BenBroske,
You bash others for not knowing how blizzards code works, yet you talk as though you're an expert on this very field.
You don't know a duping exploit in D3 would yield the same ID as the original item.
You don't even know blizzard uses SQL.


The ID stands for each individual data entry of the databank. The consistency check is on the cell itself.

The ID in this case does not stand for an item perse.

Be that Oracle, SQL server; DB2 ... they use the same checksum controls. and common known commands to trigger these like "snapshot".

We are talking here about the backbone of our industry and common knowledge base infrastructure.

Our society would go nuts without these trustworthy DB controls. So would be a non server based controlled game (pun intended).
Edited by BenBoske#2907 on 13/11/2012 13:38 GMT
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You just want to insult people who calmy explain why a server controlled game with a SQL server technology will trace ANY tempering with game data in a matter of minutes. (be that by accident or on purpose).


So thats why that rollback took more than a day. At least take the time to check your facts.

Your arguments are based on speculation and your experience with server database protocols that you work with, but have no idea if d3 works with.

I gave you examples how incredibly unlikely identical items are, calculated it out, even, yet you are still stating that "with 7 million players its very likely that duplicates happen" while, its not.

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5825402547?page=5#89

Was my aswer to your inane rambling, after which you simply stopped postig. I hope you do that as well now, cause you are spreading stupidity.
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+1
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13/11/2012 13:44Posted by Cataca
You just want to insult people who calmy explain why a server controlled game with a SQL server technology will trace ANY tempering with game data in a matter of minutes. (be that by accident or on purpose).


So thats why that rollback took more than a day. At least take the time to check your facts.

Your arguments are based on speculation and your experience with server database protocols that you work with, but have no idea if d3 works with.

I gave you examples how incredibly unlikely identical items are, calculated it out, even, yet you are still stating that "with 7 million players its very likely that duplicates happen" while, its not.

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5825402547?page=5#89

Was my aswer to your inane rambling, after which you simply stopped postig. I hope you do that as well now, cause you are spreading stupidity.


It all depends on the RND numbers being generated.

RND 160-180 doesn't mean it has 180 possible outcomes, only 20 ...

Your enigma and conspiracy is stopped cold already ...

Why would they do that ? To make Legendaries more OP and less sucky ...

As to the DB theories: those are standard procedures in present day DB's. If you think Diablo 3 doesn't use these same data techniques than it is clear who I am talking to... a complete noob in present day automated data management.

You will NEVER see long term duping of items with such systems. NEVER. Already explained it in 20+ posts above why ...

Go read them and for once stop discussing things about server controlled data management you haven't got the faintest idea about.
Edited by BenBoske#2907 on 13/11/2012 14:17 GMT
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That being said here are the problems:

  • Gold sinks - There is none. Each patch the game becomes easier, hence less people need to repair items, and more than that every patch the repair prices are lowered.
  • Duping - Once you release the AH duping is annoying, that's true. But once you release RMAH duping is a felony. If I buy from RMAH a $250 bow and then dupe it once, i actually created $250 out of thin air (no work at all). [not to mention there are even gold duping videos running over youtube from way back in patch 1.0.3]



Is there gold sinks in real life? No. How is a bow in a game not "created out of thin air"? Are you saying games can create real money? How come greece is bankrupt? Why dont they just make a money creating game?


How to fix this you ask?


Let the economy be free, every free economy fixes it self.

No matter how much blizzard pokes around and tries to socialize the economy it will always govern itself.
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12/11/2012 13:45Posted by Shoshi
We all know that the classes aren't equal. I don't want to add anything here as it's obvious what the problems are, just go read another QQ thread on barbs / hunters being so strong, or see how a 50mil barb can stand in unlimited amount of monsters + elites in MP 10 and stay full health without moving or attacking at all.


Dude, have u been on drugs or anything that makes u think irrationally?
Go visit AH and see how many items you can buy for 50mln for barb and for monk or ANY other class m8.
Purchase some life leach items and you will be standing as barbs do.
NOW As you said
PLUS

12/11/2012 13:45Posted by Shoshi
and it isn't going to be another "barbs are OP" even though they are.


so WHY THE HECK you comment on something you clearly do not fully understand.

GO play 500+ hours on a character and you will be standing as any other class out there.
Stop whining you life lacking human beings.
ENjoy the game, if not leave it as it is....IT IS A GAME AFTER ALL. Stop ruining it for other people.

AND blizzard, please stop listening to everyone as first you made a hard game, then you made it easier, now you tried to balance it with the MP and YET people are still not happy with it..

WHAT IS IT that you expect of a game that was supposed to be released 5 or so years ago.

Get over it and get a life.
Dont care and will not care.
Out.
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Gold sinks and Items sinks are sorely needed -

The upgrading a stat on an item and giving a chance to break per upgrade is a tried a true formula, worked for Lineage and i'm sure it'll work here. It'll take all the low end Legs (like poorly rolled vile wards and poorly rolled SOJ's etc) and make people buy them and try gamble them upwards, it'll take out items from the game. Charge a fee for upgrade and there you have a GOLD AND ITEM sink. will do wonders for the game.

plus it'll give the really rich people something to do.
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Let the economy be free, every free economy fixes it self.


I prefer the option when rich get too rich, you hang them on the trees. Viva la revolution, comrade :P
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Since this seems a reasonable thread, I will join it with some suggestions of my "own" (most borrowed from other games).

1) Economy:
  • The player base: Before an in-depth discussion about the economy can be even started, one has to know how much money is owned by what fraction of people. I would like to see some statistics from Blizzard displaying distributions of money: current/total income/total spent money vs fraction of players. Then we would know if >50% can afford the current AH prices and so on.
    Personally I am a casual player and have 2 mio on my account. There is not much I can afford with it.
  • Goldsinks: Having a fail rate on gem combination would really frustrate a lot of people.
    I don't think it is viable to have something fail which cost a lot of money. But this depends on the wealth of the players. If you make the combination fail you create a great gold sink, but also a great time-sink or even making it impossible for most players to get a perfect gem.
  • Goldsink suggestion: There are two other things which are done by other games (Diablo 2 and Torchlight 2): Gambling and Enchanting. Gambling (D2) is a very risky method which can get you fantastic rewards - or none at all. It is an optional mechanic and can act as a great gold sink. Enchanting (TL2) on the other hand offers small upgrades which stack with the current magic properties of the items. Imagine getting a few yards of pickup radius or 1% more dmg on your current gear (or some useless stuff). Enchantments are quite cheap to start with and their price goes up depending on the number of enchantments on your item. There is also a risk to loose them all at once! I think for people seeking a few percent improvement on their items, enchanting has potential as a moderate - high gold sink.
  • 2) Game content:
    Random maps
    What I don't understand from the development of Diablo 3, which is based on (partial) randomness of levels, is that you can't random-generate additional content. Both Path of Exile and Torchlight 2 have demonstrated that you can have such random dungeons as end game.
    I am personally fascinated by the model from PoE: Maps can be modified to up the difficulty while increasing the rewards! Kind of similar to what Blizzard has done with the monster level system, but the maps offer more variety: More (fire/ice/etc) damage taken, amount of bosses in level, etc.

    To be honest, Diablo 3 could do even more: How about an arena (like planned for PvP) but with different challenges through monster waves? I can see many people jumping on that, if:
  • The rewards are sufficient (gold/items/achievements/score board)
  • Has enough diversity to be played often (different scenarios?)
  • 3) Class equality
    I completely agree that the classes should be equal regarding the challenges you can master with them. However, they should not play the same. What I mean by that is simple:
    Barb is good vs X, Y but bad against Z
    Wizard is good vs X and Z but bad against Y
    etc.
    You should be able to master something, but not all. After all Diablo is, or at least used to be, a game about cooperative gameplay. Especially with inferno you can give the monsters additional abilities (maybe couple with MP?) that make it not worth while (but not impossible!) to solo the content. The problem here is getting it right so you don't scare current players (solo heroes). Let's face it, in the past D3 was not really pushing for coop - it felt more like it was punishing it.

    4) Polishing the game
    Let's not forget this item on the list of improvements, as it is an important aspect if you want to get new players into the game. The game has to feel good! This includes areas like
  • Auction House
  • Crafting
  • Visual effects
  • Items
  • Auction House: While the auction house is great to find new items, it still doesn't feel comfortable. Convenience features are missing:
  • Make it available while playing and/or outside the game (app/website)?
  • change character for AH without switching it in char screen (affects the suggested items)
  • available sort (+ memorise) in auction list (only available for search), i.e. sort auctions you bid on by time left.
  • make additional tabs: selling/buying: I can see that the GUI was done with console/simplicity in mind, but when bidding on more than 5 auctions scrolling is necessary. The space for you bids is simply not enough
  • money return directly to stash, no need to pick up (this seems like a lazy system to prevent money duping)
  • Allow the search of +movement speed (among many others!) on weapons and armor other than boots.
  • Crafting:
  • add make N of an item like in GW 2 (especially useful for combinind materials)
  • Visual effects: I think in terms of skills etc, D3 is a huge improvement over D2 and is at the top of over action RPGs. However, I am disappointed about the missing effects of complete sets (http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/File:Set-trangs-full-s.jpg, http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Tal_Rasha%27s_Wrappings). They offered an interesting opportunity of customisation: you could tell what set the person next to you is wearing. D3 did a good job to catch up with the legendaries. I hope this trend will continue.

    Items: The only thing I can think off, which wouldn't make it hard to balance is: Remove incompatible class specific stats (spirit regen, etc) from class specific items from both rare and unique items

    I hope this is not too much text. It is by far not a complete list, after all I am just a single person. Write your own ideas! @Blizzard: read them ;)
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    I see only one problem for D3 and that's the AH and RMAH are really GREAT additions for future games, but the fact the ONLY thing that's worth trading is "gear", it limits the use of the AH/>RMAH in D3...

    I think AH/RMAH would really florish if other parts of a bigger game could be integrated like it is being seen in WoW..

    - AH/RMAH for trading Pets.
    - AH/RAMH for trading Farm products.
    - AH/RMAH for tading other profession items (needed to construct things).
    - AH/RMAH for trading BOE gear.

    etc ...

    I think Blizzard knows this and I hope they learned a lot from D3, just like they did with the meaningless gold in D2 and turned Gold valuable in their next project : WOW.

    it remains to be seen if RMAH is a valid alternative for a subscription ( I doubt it), but in the meantime earning money from playing a RPG has been an excellent experience ...
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    It all depends on the RND numbers being generated.

    RND 160-180 doesn't mean it has 180 possible outcomes, only 20 ...


    Yes, it does with an item with one single affix. With multiple affixes those are multiplicative. Most items have several million possible combinations, billions even.

    13/11/2012 13:57Posted by BenBoske
    Your enigma and conspiracy is stopped cold already ...


    With that comment above you mean? No, it just proves that you have zero idea of probability.

    As to the DB theories: those are standard procedures in present day DB's. If you think Diablo 3 doesn't use these same data techniques than it is clear who I am talking to... a complete noob in present day automated data management.


    So what if i am. Your arguments have been speculations on how the d3 database works. The server rollback in asia took 24+ hours which according to you should take a few minutes at best. (and that there HAS been a rollback proves there are dupes as well, as there was one recently)

    You will NEVER see long term duping of items with such systems. NEVER. Already explained it in 20+ posts above why ...

    Vile wards:

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/puafia-1295/hero/5768717

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/wetmorsel-1933/hero/6062928

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/werked-1655/hero/10564181

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/boa760612-3751/hero/18327534

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/robinruin-6175/hero/23683099

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/ramp-1195/hero/24394361

    http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/jxchrixt-1527/hero/27976404

    is that so?

    13/11/2012 13:57Posted by BenBoske
    Go read them and for once stop discussing things about server controlled data management you haven't got the faintest idea about.


    I read some of your posts, and conclude that you are full of crap. Plus, you cant argue properly and use the same 2 arguments (cant happen cause sql / dupes possible cause many players) over and over and over, to dispute arguments.
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    I think some people here think blizz is the CIA and that they have the best security protocoles in the industry. Blizz is a publicly traded company : priority is the bottom line not DB security. They don't constantly monitor everything they have limited resources.

    They aren't pro-active they are on the back foot ever since D3 has been launched. They had to rescale they're infrastructure on launch, they had to rebalance the game nearly completely, they got caught with there pants down with duping (several times), this Saturday they had an outage that lasted several hours...

    I mean common we are very very far from top performance.
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    What about items that have identical stats but different IDs do you think they would trigger an alert? Lol do you want a list of games in which there have been item duping flaws (Borderand 2 LOL)?

    Duping happened at some point however as you so vehemently pointed in your previous post without the details it's just speculation. But it did happen on the Asian server at least that's for sure.

    b2 uses local saves no? played b1 was a mess with local saves.
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    I think some people here think blizz is the CIA and that they have the best security protocoles in the industry. Blizz is a publicly traded company : priority is the bottom line not DB security. They don't constantly monitor everything they have limited resources.

    They aren't pro-active they are on the back foot ever since D3 has been launched. They had to rescale they're infrastructure on launch, they had to rebalance the game nearly completely, they got caught with there pants down with duping (several times), this Saturday they had an outage that lasted several hours...

    I mean common we are very very far from top performance.


    3rd party gold sellers at their own official community forums and in-game chats reflects all this in exhausting way. Good thing is they have started more actions to prevent this phenomenon.
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    b2 uses local saves no? played b1 was a mess with local saves.


    Yeah BL2 is a local save hence you can dupe if you give your items to a friend and quit without saving in a public game. My point is that item duping is pretty common and can be acheived through several different ways (BL2 being the easiest duping I have seen yet)...

    The technique used in D3 to trigger a dupe is much more elaborate I guess.
    Edited by FMCorps#2190 on 13/11/2012 16:40 GMT
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    Guys, GoldnThunder has given some great ideas.
    I hope the thread will continue in the way he has - add new ideas and comment on others, if this can get enough magnitude all we can hope is that Blizzard will give it the required attention.

    As for the duping discussion, it doesn't matter if we know or don't know how SQL protocols work and even if there is NO possible way to dupe an item, a loophole exists - as stated way too many times in this thread - ROLLBACK.

    Every account can issue max 2 rollbacks, meaning with 2 accounts you can dupe 1 really good item into 16 duplicates - because the "hacker" account doesn't get a rollback, he gets to keep the item and therefore we have several identical / different id's of the exact same item in the system.

    Now back to topic.

    Regarding the gem failure option, there is a nice way to have it work:
    Each gem upgrade stage has a %chance * gem level. This is the chance for the gem to fail upgrade, will make it easy to get to 60-70% gems, but the top tier gems (90%-100%) should be reserved for the "elite", giving a minor bonus but truly hard to get.

    A casual player doesn't need the extra 30% crit dmg for instance, and he easily get his gems to 70% with minimal failure chance, but like the BEST armor in the game costs a few bil gold even though the difference between that and a 200mil armor is pretty minor. I believe this should be the same.
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    I have linked to you the stats of the item, including their range. The nature and range of the bonus ensure that this is a way over average weapon, even with the worst rolls. Yet, you insist on some weird mojo to ensure that, somehow, the possible combinations drop by at least 8 orders of magnitude due to some unknown and completely unnecessary algorithm.

    Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate


    You spout the same bull!@#$ for several threads and when someone takes the time to explain to you that 3 identical items are literally impossible backed up by probablity you just ignore it

    Ugh...

    BenBoske, you should stop casting pearls before swine, people are just not strong enough to imagine what a randomizing programming routine is, instead they call it "weird mojo" and "bullsh1t". Honestly I'd never thought the mind can be so under curtain. This is like explaining aerodynamics to a savage with an ax.

    As another plus to your arguments, people often reported two or even more identical RARE item drops each one short after the first, in same game, posts can be found on these forums. Barb belts for example...
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    I agree on some points but...

    Gold sinks - Gem upgrading has a fail rate which will make you lose the whole gem, so when you do get to a radiant star it will mean something and there will be little of those, and not trillions like in the market atm.

    Each time you upgrade an item it will get a little blue (1) next to it [next will be (2) then (3).. you got the point]. Each time you take that item for another upgrade it will have a 10*UpgradeLVL chance to fail.
    Meaning first time 0% fail chance, 6th time will be 50% chance.
    Upon fail - item is gone, item inflation is down, and there is a real challenge in finishing the whole business.


    Success/fail chance for socketing and upgrading items is a feature in Aion and it is the main reason most people (including me) quit that game.

    I haven't played Diablo 3 for a while now and if Blizzard introduces success/fail chance to socketing or upgrading, it will just give me another reason not to go back. I am a casual gamer and I expect fun and rewarding gameplay from a game (which Diablo 3 certainly lacks), not hundreds of mindless grinding for nothing.

    12/11/2012 13:45Posted by Shoshi
    a 50mil barb can stand in unlimited amount of monsters + elites in MP 10 and stay full health without moving or attacking at all.


    Is this theory or did you actually see such a Barb? I really don't think even 500mil barbs can survive in MP10 without moving.
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