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Ok so I am currently trying to get more light shone on the WD class right now and I am pushing as hard as I can for changes to build diversity in our class, I do not want us to be stupidly over powered as that would ruin the fun, I would like the class to be able to take any set of skills within the 6 (without elective mode) and actually be able to farm MP10 or if you're on MP5 that with any of the skill sets as that to me is build diversity.
What will this post contain?
Every skill we have, any proposed changes to them, my reasons behind these changes and what I hope would be accomplished by these changes, if anyone has anything they would like to add or if they disagree please reply explaining such and please give me your full reasoning behind it, saying "I don't like that" or "that's stupid" isn't helpful, however explaining your points and even bringing some clear mathematics to the table would be very welcome.
Firstly some people actually use this, that being said it is still quite a weak skill for a number of reasons the main one being it's DoT for 40% of the damage which means it's slower than most primaries.
Not many people can argue with this skill, 3 darts 60% each it's annoying when they miss but 180% damage from a primary is pretty good. No change.
60% slow for 2 seconds, it's only 1 target and it's only 2 seconds, I don't know very many people who have ever tried this rune let alone used it with success. Maybe the slow could be on an AoE and for 3 seconds? Something like 5 yards or 10 yards from the target that's hit to improve it as a useful crowd controlling primary.
Much like Splinters, 29 mana per dart which costs 10 mana it's bad it's quite good for those needing a mana primary.
I always feel this is lacking just a little damage, 180% puts in on par with Splinters which is a level 6 rune, 20%-30% more damage would really help the skill out.
Snake to the Face
Why not change things up? How about you fire 3 darts out (a bit like multi shot or the scoundrals 3 shot arrow) each dart does 60% damage and a chance to stun also?
Other than the pots being hugely annoying this is a decent primary skill, some use it and some really swear by it, let's look at the runes.
4 spiders, they leap up to 25 yards and deal a total of 144% damage max, they are pretty damn cool if I'm honest and I think they are where they need to be except maybe it should be 144% and not "up to".
I understand they designed it round VQ however 15 seconds and 630% in AoE is tiny damage, 42% per second which is way less than any other primary we have, the problem is you can only have 1 at a time. I would propose that they make it a max of 3 meaning 126% damage per second, yes it's less damage than most primary skills but it's AoE.
They do what they say on the tin, 4 mana returned per hit, they are very good at generating mana for the WD and quite a few people rightly use them.
Firstly why 25%? Why not just slows on each hit, also how long is this slow they don't tell you on the skill, I believe it's 2 seconds. Make it 100% chance and the runes sorted.
Again a fire alternative, the problem? Only 12% more damage that leaping spiders and they don't just across the screen to hit their enemies. Up the damage to 180-210%.
Plague of Toads
Oh dear where to start with this one, the toads on their own are so random they are quite annoying, maybe they should have a almost pathing that they use to get to enemies?
169% damage when they explode, if the toads were a little less random this would be one hell of a brutal skill, as it is some getting use to is in order.
Toad of Hugeness
Best gimick ever, no really it was funny when you first got the skill, then you realised it didn't work on anything but whites and it became useless, why does it add a 5 second cooldown when it does 20% damage per second? How about it can eat Elites and we might use it.
Rain of Toads
Our saviour, my oh my is this one good, good damage good proc good range and targeting and on top of all of that is goes over walls. Do not change.
I tried these for a long time, yes they are better than normal toads however 15% is not high enough it needs to be 25-30% maybe then it could be effective.
This was as it is due to the original mana cost being 37, now it's 12 this rune is a joke, how about instead of 3 toads we release 12 toads in a circle from where we are stood which deal 50% of the damage the normal toads deal? Something a bit more creative than no mana cost come on.
I've always liked it as a skill and I don't think that will change, I would like to see some improvements though.
I love the skill, one thing I would ask would be for the 15% to become say 10% to encourage it's use some more.
Roll of Bones
Again very cool skill, the only thing that hinders it is the damage it deals being quite low myabe a little damage buff on the whole skill?
These use to stack which made proc builds awesome, I haven't used them since, if they still stack then a great skill especially when linked with high APS, if it doesn't stack anymore, let it stack up to 5 times.
When I first used this I thought it was a better Spider Queen, upon using it I realised it was just bad, they need to remove the limit or 1 to make it usable or make it hit all enemies and be a max of 3.
Looks cool feels cool and hurts about as much as a really gentle breeze, a bit more damage on the AoE maybe 45% but it needs something a little more for the higher MP WD.
Grasp of the Dead
320% damage with a 60% slow! Sounds awesome until it's for 8 seconds which is only 40% per second and the cooldown is 8 seconds so you can't stack it... Easily double or triple that damage to make it worthwhile, it costs 123 mana it should be way stronger that a primary!
As far as slows go it's very strong, the problem we use to have was that elites and fast affix things tended to almost ignore it and run through it like it wasn't there, I hear that's been changed.
This always seems like an insult, 360% to 416%, really? Like mentioned earlier up the damage a lot.
Death is Life
Not a bad skill, how about a 15% chance though to make it a bit more enticing?
6 second cool down... 25% faster because that's "desperate" I would suggest a 50% on the cool down making it a 4 second cool down rune.
Rain of Corpses
The wording is confusing, it's the normal GotD on the floor but a corpse drops every second onto a random mob and does 80% damage, this could do with being about 200% to be very honest maybe even more as it's only once every 1 second.
Summon Zombie Dogs
Since the change in 1.0.4 the have been much better and I'm happy with them.
If this is to be the damage option or one of them the damage needs to be more than 9% that or make it the proc dogs with really good proc, damage up over 20% or good proc.
For a Sacrifice build you can not go wrong, works very well with out passive GF.
Super rune, I wouldn't change it for anything, well other than more % ;)
I always feel 2% is just way too low, 4.5% maybe?
Ok the dogs hit for hardly any damage as it is and with the 80% reduction in inferno you see hardly any healing from this, either make it 100% OR make it a LoH where you and the dog gain 300+ life per hit.
A skill I've used very little as I hate fear, still a good skill though. I believe most people are quite happy with is, my reasons for not using it are purely that I like mobs being close to me and not scatered.
Like most skills with extended times I feel it should have been doubled up to 8 seconds.
Very cool speed boost, I wouldn't change it.
Face of Death
24 yard range is HUGE, again they got this one right I think.
Again 100% armour for 8 seconds, very good rune.
27 mana per enemy just doesn't seem good enough to me especially when fighting ubers / elites, could do with being 54 mana.
Fantastic skill, almost every WD uses it and rightly so, there are a few "odd" runes but no bad runes.
3 seconds if it were any longer it would be too strong.
Gives a reason to have max mana on items, as 15% of 1200 is quite a bit, when I had mana issues this was a life saver.
310% damage in AoE, the only thing I would say is how about adding our Pick up Radius to the range?
Enemies you pass take 225% damage, that's quite a lot and quite cool.
7% is good 10% would make me really happy ;)
Once they fix the damage bug I think people will be happier using it again, I use those numbers to let me know the bears are on target *shrugs* don't know if you guys do too.
Really? 1821 hp, seriously? How about 10% of the targets health so it actually scales.
Here piggie piggie, 20% damage bonus is good I wouldn't change it.
I think if they changed this people would be upset, it's not hugely useful but it is fun and we like that, maybe up the % damage by a nice amount as there is a long CD on it, say 756% it's an 15 second cool down.
12% bleed is very weak, double it at the least maybe even more, 25% maybe 35%.
This is super weak again, so one target every 15 seconds can blow up for a whole 135%? Seriously that needs to be much much higher or it needs to add an effect where is those who are hit by it will also have poison for 3 seconds where they will explode upon death too and spread it.
Very good DPS skill, the Int boost is awesome.
Swallow your Soul
Much like Horrify 39 mana isn't enough to make people consider this, double it.
1.0.2 and 1.0.3 this was a go to skill for WDs however 5 enemies means 10k hp, our pots heal for more this needs to be do at say 10% of your hp per enemy hit meaning no matter who uses it they can heal 50% of their HP OR on uber at least get some healing.
I don't know anyone who has ever used it, maybe rework the whole skill we have too many slows it's just silly we don't need more, if you disagree then increase the slow to 5 seconds.
Soul to Waste
60 seconds or one minute of the souls, that's really good and I think a lot play this rune.
230% damage seems good however on a 15 second cool down skill it's pathetic, make it 460% or 500%+ and see how many WDs at least try it out.
Very good skill, used in a number of ways, some as a mana battery others in a sac build and some use it with CoL passive.
Another slow seriously? How about after blowing up the enemies burn or bleed (I'm thinking alien and the acid blood) for 3 seconds for a total of 150% damage per dog?
Next of Kin
Before the 0 sec builds this was almost good, I believe it needs revising now how about a 35% to trigger a second explosion?
Huge mana battery very cool for none sacrifice builds.
For the Master
Very cool how it is but why not make it a % of the WDs hp again so it scales, 12.5% of the WDs hp per dog? Using ZH a WD can get 50% hp per cast (which a lot get now anyway).
Provoke the Pack
Let it stack, please it would be such a great option and would add some build diversity into Sac builds if this stacked, if it stacks reduce the time it lasts to 15 seconds and a max of 100% bonus damage.
Everyone probably thinks I can't pick at this one, well I can one good rune doesn't make a skill wonderful.
240% damage over 3 seconds, yea cause passives our power this, it's a 140 mana skill! That poison damage needs a big buff.
Right so it can occure 2 other times at 205% so it can if you're lucky do less damage than ZB by a lot... needs much MUCH higher damage if you want this effect on it.
Wave of Zombies
So ZBs with a 50% damage nerf? What was the thinking here? Again needs a big damage increase to be worth while.
How many of us were so pleased when we got this to then realise it was crap? Double the damage and it'll get used, make the range increase with Pick up Radius.
So powerful it makes Barbs whine, we love it, however it's not as easy to use as people might think, aiming is a pain the bears get stuck on everything and you can't see what's going on for all the bears. Still a damn good skill.
This skill had and still have great potential, it just needs a bit more kick to be useable, it IS in the same damage area as Zombie Bears and should be competing with it. 230% damage for 108 mana is poo we need more damage from it.
The Spirit is Willing
I don't know a WD since 1.0.3 who has used this, it needs reworking big time, if we want mana from a spirit spell we will use RoE.
Well of Souls
Most WDs can land the 3 additional shots on the same target anyway but you're fixing it so when drunk and blind we can still do it, the problem is that none of it is strong enough OR has AoE, maybe give an AoE of 10 yards on the 3 additionals?
Take the limit off how many times we can stack this and like I said increase SB damage anyway and this will see a lot of use.
It's not actually a bad skill but not used all that much, mainly because people don't realise it's potential.
Great concept guys, 20 seconds at 1667% damage total, take a standard CK of 1.4 APS then do 230% over 20 seconds, 6440% that is where the damage should be. Also the range should be increase by out Pick up Radius, then it's a useable skill.
HUGE mana cost, tiny damage HUGE proc rate... Ok for the high proc rate we can live with the lower damage, however we would like it to at least stack thanks very much, only 1 could be used for proc at a time but the damage we would like to stack.
The go to skill, hits everything and is a good rune.
Lob Blob Bomb
Why are we limited to 3? Make it as many as our mana and APS can handle.
If you made the skill stack we would be happy with it as you actually ran the numbers on damage right here.
Kiss of Death
Who thought this one up? No seriously nice idea terrible implementation into the game, so instead of being at whatever range we want we have to run into melee and then only gain a tiny amount of damage? The damage on this rune needs a massive overhaul and rethink.
Every Necro fan out there saw this skill and jumped about like a little child, they then used it and sobbed. You gave us an almost necro skill and it's pants, this should be a HUGE damage dealer, take ZB, 236% x3 in AoE for 140 mana. 5 damage per mana so this spell pops out at 870% damage to be on par, that's a little much so make it 750% and it will get used a lot, however it will not make it overpowered but will make it a viable option for builds.
Wall of Zombies
The cool down is the reason this skill isn't used, it's a joke reduce it to 10 seconds and drop pile on to 5 seconds.
Good skill once the cool down is sorted.
Come on our base slows are 60% make it 80%.
The WoZs Damage got a buff but these didn't? It's a bit weak, make the creepers do 75%-150% would need testing.
Really cool and good idea, it comes with a cooldown and the damage is too low though, make it up to around the 750% damage mark and people will likely invest in 5sec cool down items for a 0 build (remember i said lower it to 5 seconds) remember build diversity.
Explosive Toads has huge damage for a passive because it's so random, this also needs huge damage for the same reason, 900% and you might see it used, then again you might not it's a pain of a skill to use.
I realise I skipped these earlier I wanted them in with the damage skills, the base damage of this skill is just plain too weak, it should be around the 205% mark maybe a bit higher.
Awesome skill, it's only problem is it's damage, 220% come on make it 440%-500% and it will be a useable skill again.
Make it 5% or 6% and this could be brought it to deal with Refelcts, then again you're nerfing them cause the DHs and Barbs cried *shrugs*.
I like the skill, the range should be a lot longer and the damage a little higher at max it should be about 350%, it's a strong skill.
Edited by Fean#2616 on 26/01/2013 11:34 GMT
On paper these look amazing, in reality? They suck so much, make it so the range is increased with pick up radius, make it so that have a 10 yard AoE splash on the damage and increase the damage to 450%-500% and they will possibly see builds, the mana cost of bats means higher damage wouldn't be right.
Cloud of Bats
How awesome is the damage? Well it's ok, the weakness with this skill is that it's well weak, there are a number of changes but first off the damage NEEDS to be 350% base gaining 30%-35% per second over 5 seconds, you either need to be able to move while casting it or Pick up Radius increase it's range OR have your pick up radius cause a vortex effect on creeps dragging them to you.
This games PvE not PvP so no "it'll be OP in PvP" honestly I don't care about that, the base damage on this is a thing to be laughed at, make it about 650%-700% so it's over 100% per second, let it stack and we could use it as a main attack, I don't mean 3 times I mean perma stack so we can play spirit builds.
155 life, are you serious? how about 0.5% of you total HP? 50k hp WD = 250 per second it's not OP but it SCALES.
Just increase the damage to about 450% and it's fine.
If the initial changes to Haunt are done then this wouldn't need a change.
Why, why, why another bloody slow? Also why 30% that's pathetic, how about you change the run completely so that instead of 1 Haunt we cast 2?
20 mana per second is 3.7% of the base mana, that's pants make it 5% of the WDs mana total per second or even make it 3.7% but make it so it SCALES with out mana pool.
Could have been great but then it wasn't, 196 mana are you for real? With the tiny damage it does? It should be doing roughly 11000% damage for the mana cost so how is it doing such a tiny amount and why doesn't it stack? Lower the damn mana cost to about 120, make the % damage over 8 seconds 800% and allow it to stack.
With the initial changes to LS it's good.
Make each hit / jump add 5% of the WDs mana to his total mana.
Cloud of Insects
Yes 10 seconds but also 1000% damage then.
75% damage for 3 seconds come on, make it 150% or 225%.
33% increase make it 1066% damage.
Since his damage buff we like him, the only think I would ask is allow him to proc again please.
A little under loved but he is good, maybe just up his cleave to 150%?
Since you fixed the bug few people use him, can only happen every 2 minutes? REALLY, make it one minute and allow GI to reduce the time.
For a 15 second cast he should do more, I would suggest that he absorbs 20% of the incoming damage on us also, he is a PROTECTOR after all.
Humongoid is just better 30-50% damage AoE but would likely need testing.
I like him all I would say is again the CD on his stun should be reduced by GI.
Big Bad Voodoo
How we love this skill, how can we ask for buffs here? We can't really it's fantastic. Except it could either follow us OR emite from us.
We usually have things dead by then but ok, could also lower the CD to 90 seconds?
Why is it only mana? It should be resources to benefit allies too.
Wouldn't change it.
Again no change.
Not seen anyone use this, make it 75% and also add health globes in there and it might get a use in here and there.
Where do I start, firstly why are they only there for 20 seconds? Also why don't they have force armour? They are completely USELESS right now.
I'm not going through the actual Runes as until the Fetishes hit harder, have more HP, gain force armour and don't vanish after 20 seconds then they will not get used by WDs period.
Overall a good skill cooldown isn't bad for what it is. Make it so the range is increased by Pick up Radius.
Why not make it 30 seconds go on, let us almost have a 0 second MC build with Last Breath, with the DR on crowd control effects it wouldn't be a problem.
Again 75% thanks and add health globes in.
3 second stun is good we like stun ;)
20% damage is good we like it.
22% per second are you serious? Spider Queens better than that, make it about 75% and then we'll talk.
Passive time ;)
15% is absolutely fine no issues here.
Circle of Life
Make them have force armour then they spawn seriously other than that maybe 35%?
Good but 2% mana regen please.
Perfectly well balanced if I'm honest.
2% hp regen and it's bang on.
Don't touch it's fine.
Again no issues with it.
Pierce the Veil
Ok 20% damage for 30% mana cost, are you frigging joking? 30% damage for 20% mana cost I believe is what you were meant to put.
I think people would be upset if this changed so I wont say a word.
Force armour, the 1 minute is fine, why only 5%? 10% thank you with a max of 10. Why because people want to see their passives working to use them.
Rush of Essence
Very good passive.
You nerfed it a little too hard guys, 50% mana regen.
Seriously you need to make thorns a % in this game before this will be touched and the life regen for the pets is pointless right now, make it add a say 15% thorns to all pets and they gain your thorns damage (also change those affixes to a %) and give them your regen, THEN it will be useful.
Can be powerful, takes a good build and lots of mula or low MP running but a good passive.
Let it effect horrify and I'll be happy.
Small note I forgot to mention Soul Harvest and "topping up Souls" if we have 5 souls and we cast on 3 enemies don't drop us to 3 let the 2 that are there on top be there until their timer runs out.
If I missed anything please let me know, if you agree or disagree also let me know.
Have a good one guys.
You hit most of the points I wanted to express on skills.
However, I do have a general change I would like to see. I would like to see an animation for the immobolize proc from boots. The only indicator of the proc is the word root floats above the monster's head for a second and then disappears.
I would like to see immobolize cause the same animation as the Hellrack crossbow. When the Hellrack causes a root/immobolize, you see a whirlwind around the monster. I would like to see something similar from the gear immobolize proc.
We have a lot of people that talk about skill changes on the US board and I will make a post that requests they come over here and tell you what they think.
Excellent review. I'd agree on all points. I think *literally all suggested improvements* seem reasonable & balanced.
WDs have lots of interesting skills/runes, but the damage numbers on most of them are pathetic. Furthermore, the mana cost & CDs are far too high to make many of them viable. CDs in particular can instantly limit a skill to be useless, and there's currently too little way to improve those CDs reliably. Range is definitely an issue for some skills too.
ZBs & Acid Rain already do plenty of damage, AoE & procs, so buffing the other skills/runes only really just bring them up to this standard at most, & the numbers you're suggesting shouldn't overpower us WDs i believe. Your suggested improvements should simply attract more diversity.
I've tried all skills & runes over the months & discarded most quickly, as it's simply obvious they aren't worthwhile (i'm normally re-testing new skills/runes every few days). Generally, your numbers/ideas look approximately correct to improve these without making them OP.
A few specific points:
I would definitely agree with Leeching Beasts needing a serious boost. They're totally useless atm. Rabid & Burning dogs need either a reasonable damage increase or proc increase, or both (as you suggest).
Fetish Army is ridiculously bad for a cool idea. Everybody has said roughly the same points for months. Even if it required Fetish Sycophants to evoke to needed improvements, that would be a good start. Surely this is *the* obvious starting point for skill improvements for WD.
It would be lovely if ZH significantly boosted Thorns damage, to finally give a reason to care about thorns. eg: pets do 200% thorns damage [on that topic, Thorns really does need to be a %age of total damage output - it *needs* to scale!].
Minor point: I'd add that GF needs it's icon corrected - v nice to have it up now, but it'd be great if it accurately showed the damage buff given the stacks are currently timing individually. Either that or change the actual damage buff to be accumulative up to 5.
Disagree with this, Widowmaker spiders, VQ and mana regen from gear would make this overpowered. Numbers on this need tweaking and a massive boost to damage is not always the answer.
Skeletor it would be weaker than spamming bears still, however it would give us options and targeting wouldn't be an issue.
I can without VQ and a primary spam bears all day long are they OP?
What would you suggest as I said at the start I wanted numbers to validate ideas and such, if you believe it would be too OP please tell me why, where that damage is OP and how it could be balanced please :D
I do think bears are OP you shouldn't be able to do that sort of damage constantly in my opinion.
As to corpse bomb I believe damage should be more somewhere between 400-500% damage with a slight increase in range.
As the tooltip doesn't say what range it has it's hard to say 50% extra range is right. From playing with it it seems to have a range of about 15 yards an extra 50% Would make it too close to acid rain. Somewhere around 17-18 yards seems the best to me but like i wrote hard to tell with out knowing what range it has now.
Good post Fean.
I would point a few things out that I would think needs changing:
Mass Confusion / Paranoia:
The tooltip makes it difficult to understand if the 20% dmg buff sticks to the enemies in the radius on the initial cast of it the dmg buff works for any enemy entering and exiting a specific radius for the 12 second timeframe.
I believe the answer is the 2nd... and if this is the case, it would be nice to display this radius on the ground visually so you can identify if the enemies are in the radius or not... similar to BBV? If they stick to enemies... then perhaps a way to identify that as well like confusion/bleed over the monsters head.
The zuni bonus and manajuma bonuses are great... but the mana on kill mechanic doesn't scale with MP which didnt exist when they initially created the bonus. Can this be changed to a scalable ability?
If not... then Bliz needs to change 'on kill' mechanics so that if allies kill... we also get the bonus. The way it is set up now... 'on kill' mechanics makes people want to solo more than play in a group... and what fun is that? Same thing applies for archon wizards...
The idea to improve VisionQuest is good... I would rather have something that is more scalable for mana regen. Instead of having to have a useless primary (all our primaries suck) wasting a skill slot... can we just change VQ to be 'Steals X% Mana from damage' similar to Life Steal (which can be nerfed down in inferno like LS is). Having this would allow a passive that SCALES!!! Since attack speed kills our mana pool which should be a buff... it is a logical request to have something scale with attack speed/damage, etc.
So melee classes get 30% damage reduction... because they are going head to head with the monsters (at least that's blizzard's argument I think). So with that same logic... wouldn't it make sense to have ranged classes have ranged dmg reduction? melee classes get 30% melee reduction... ranged classes get 30% ranged reduction... Just a thought.
Just my 2 cents.
Edited by ofgortens#1113 on 27/01/2013 14:00 GMT
mana on crit ^^
then Bliz needs to change 'on kill' mechanics so that if allies kill... we also get the bonus. The way it is set up now... 'on kill' mechanics makes people want to solo more than play in a group... and what fun is that? Same thing applies for archon wizards...
i dont think even this will make the affix very attractive, doesnt make a difference to scaling (or there lack of).
actually was just thinking this on my way to labs earlier. this is so ridiculous and could be a really awesome party buff thats able to compete with slam dance.
@BlastrMastr, you mean like they did in Act 3 on D2?
That would be kinda cool, like when they die or are unsummoned they explode, it would certainly make items like the gidbinn interesting and the passive too...
So many fun filled pet style builds we could be doing with DoTs and such but right now none of it's viable.
I do love the exploding fetish idea.
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