Diablo® III

New paragon system, fun and exciting!

At first, I believed in Blizzards ability to fix the game, and do it rather soon - for all that time, I've played it rather vigorously

When Paragon levels announcement came, I've publicly declared my doubts about them, and regarded them as a band-aid

When MPx came out, I expressed same reserve, and started to doubt heavily in game future - not long after, I quit the game

Ok, after a short intro, a small remembrance to a game many of us love, and all the devs hate - D2:Lod:

1) Normal/Nightmare/Hell - they HAD the purpose, since usually player got to Nightmare with less than lvl30 (where last tier of skill was unlocked). Most people now critique that system, since "development was finished at lvl30" - nothing being further from the truth, since leveling skill and synergies could lasted to lvl99, and still not being over

2) Now, imagine you want to make a character who wants to rely heavily on two lvl30 skills - and you DON'T have a respec, which is the way it should remained:
- you should sacrifice (save) say 15 skill points, which would allow character to level both lvl30 skills simultaneously
- sacrifice was, of course, playing till lvl30 with just ~19 skill point invested (out of 34), and furthermore those CAREFULLY invested, since there was no respec and we wanted STRONG endgame character
- note that this include some trade-off (not choosing most efficient early game skills) and some skill (playing without half a skill points invested)
- it actually made DIFFERENCE between GOOD AND EXPERIENCED player, and novice
- when novice become good, he used to realize his initial mistakes and decide to make new, better character, with better build

3) What we have in D3:
- no punishment for bad planning whatsoever - all are EQUAL
- no strategy in leveling process at all

4) Basically, few good things were removed and, two bad introduced - making people rightfully ask for removal of normal/nightmare/hell entirely, something which I'd rather see FIXED, instead removed, but currently - demand is kinda reasonable, since we could have INFERNO-ONLY BALANCED skills, instead LEVELING BALANCED ones


How to fix Paragon - or "it's YOUR mess, but I'll advice anyway

1) Paragons serve exactly nothing - all 100 of them give 300+200+100+100 stats (which could be found by just upgrading gear), +mf/gf% (which should never been hard capped in the first place - something else I publicly talked about - maybe on another forum, can't remember really and it doesn't matter)

This is basically artificial increase of mf%/gf% cap which was wrong thing, and a pitiful reward not worthy spending time on - a flipping would make the "benefits" come much faster.

So, mf%/gf% cap MUST go out of the game, since it lost purpose, and Paragons must have a REAL reward (read below). Same goes to MPx mf%/gf%/exp%, which basically does nothing but rewards more people with best gear, regardless of skill, planning and other features, all more worthy than bought gear.

2) We're all the same - pick a class, level with "necessary level of grinding" - I DO agree grinding always is a part of ARPG - but it usually gives something less pathetic (or even hurting the game). What happens at p100? Oh, goodie, a +3mf/gf%! YESSSSS! Slightly better than p99. Somewhat better than p90. Better than p49, but not greatly. And probably MUCH worse than something gained by upgrading a gear. An this is true for all classes, all builds, all players, regardless of how they played, what choices they made. Does it feel rewarding? For some people, probably, for majority - not so much

Proposition:
- Paragons give a choice of perk at each x level, for example you can have X, or Y (can respec, since people are in love with this bad feature, though I'd like it out, or punishing in some way). But, player CANNOT have BOTH. Example: increase damage of skill A or B, add +x mf% OR +x attribute, etc. This happen several times during the leveling, so character could become pretty different, especially if both choices are good and equally tempting

[this is about as far as I'm going, since developers will never listen to forum advice, no matter how good it is]

- Paragons give a different type of rewards, for example ADDITIONAL PASSIVE (either in a form of 4th slot, or Paragon-specific one which is chosen among few (perhaps tiered, so different passives are chosen at different Paragons, or at least enabled, if player wants two tier1 passives). Existing passives could also be increased in power. This should happen, say twice, perhaps three times in leveling process

This is resulting in p100 character with 5 passives far SUPERIOR to p99 or p90, and even more than p49 one. Paragons become highly sought, instead "oh, well, better picture" attitude.

Speaking of pictures, hated-over-current-blizzard D2:LoD had a cool feature - TITLES! Players defeating a difficulty were called Lord XXX, or Slayer XXX etc. Even this alone would improve Paragon desirability.

[please DON'T put anything trifecta-base as optional choice, it would just make hole deeper - character should differ by FEATS, not pure dps or hp]

3) Shared Paragons - in a word: WHY? Yes, I'm often bitter when speaking about devs (being an experienced modder/dev myself) and consider them making a lot of foreseeable bad choices without giving them enough thought or testing, but I DO listen to their podcasts, read interviews etc... Practically everything said. Which made me question lots of thing. But encouraging thing I've heard was that new Game Director asks them WHY? WHAT WILL THAT ACHIEVE?

So, "Why shared Paragons in first place, and what will they achieve?"

In current form, almost nothing - same old, boring, useless stats (explained above), just shared. Will that shorten playing span even more? Or what is exact purpose - making players play more with alt-characters is a hardly Paragon-based, rather gear-based. So starting with inferno with p40 alt-character will have little additional appeal

[basically, I'm against this feature - endgame should be fun and rewarding, enjoyable even when grinding, instead boring task which is shortened by up to SIX TIMES by gear-based MPx mechanism, and even MORE, if Paragons are to be shared.]

4) Diversity through items - Loot 2.0, as I understand, have also goal to fix initial skill flaws, lets say famous "Two Hydras" affix - btw, proposed in time of 1.03 or so, as a passive skill for Wizard by Clavdivs, The God - "Hydramancer - can create two hydras at the same time, each Hydra damage is reduced to 80%" (the reducement is probably not necessary now, but back then hydra damage fluctuated wildly between Poison and others)

- So, instead through AH sellable goods, why not (also) implementing fixing/balancing/improving through perks given on each 10 p-levels? The ones that CANNOT be bought (BoA, if you will)? Wouldn't it make paragons more desirable?

Summary:
I don't see any value in shared paragons, and once again advise against this. Numerous other improvements could be made which would have Paragons useful, desirable and fun, and increase fun player is experiencing though necessary grinding. And though system of potential useful rewards, make character more diverse - PLEASE avoid anything trifecta-primary-stat-vitality based - and make people feel proud of their paragons, instead being... no matter
Edited by Snakefist#1128 on 01/08/2013 23:25 BST
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1. For the love of all that is holy, do not make paragon levels accountwide. If that happens we lose yet another goal for our characters, and the game loses longevity (just like it did when inferno was nerfed in patch 2-3).

2. Do not extend the paragon system. Not only would it delute current system, but it would focus more attention on those levels instead of actual content.

3. It would be nice if there were some tresholds in the paragon system where you got something special. I would suggest that at lv 25 you can use 2 henchmen at the same time (singleplayer), at 50. You get an extra active skill-slot, at 75. You can use all three followers at the same time and at 100. You get a bonus passive skill-slot as well as the ability to use a follower-token.

This would make it feel more worthwile than just the endless +tiny stats and mf for 200 hours.
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Some random ideas:

- Compromise and limit shared paragon levels to, for example, PL 50? After that you need to play the character to progress further.

- Magic Find currently is pretty much essential for having any hope of finding good loot. Maybe have it max out at, for example, PL 50. Levels afterward unlock snazzy new rewards. May not be needed for Loot 2.0 patch? Will have to see.

- I like the Rune skill points idea. PL could unlock upgrade slots on runes. Slots are filled with drops from boss monsters. Act IV has the highest boss density, but you could farm the other acts too. Or maybe Ubers can drop them also? More stuff to do~

- Link PL to increased minimum roll ranges on drops/crafted gear. (I don't like this one, would prefer universal)
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"customization within the paragon system." Sounds good to me, just as long as the rewards differ in rarity and encourage players to continue playing as paragon lvling is apart of the end game. For example items that can only be attained by reaching paragon 100 and you only get one of these items for each character leveled to 100. These items should be unattainable from the item hunt.
Edited by Shadowhand#6120 on 02/08/2013 02:11 BST
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I think much better as shared para level could be reducion time needed to gain one to 25%
so 5chars =125% of 1 account
[i have all 5 so i would have hard time leveling]
but if i would say to myself oh damn DH it's useless underpowered guy
i will don't level him
i still don't ahve to
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So i have another quiestion about accound-wide paragon level.

If a player have only one char? for example me, if i play only barb and delete the other chars?

what then ? :)
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I think much better as shared para level could be reducion time needed to gain one to 25%
so 5chars =125% of 1 account
[i have all 5 so i would have hard time leveling]
but if i would say to myself oh damn DH it's useless underpowered guy
i will don't level him
i still don't ahve to


Why should it be easier to get paragon levels? It just makes them less rewarding with no psychological benefit whatsoever. The whole point by introducing them was to give us something to do late-game that didn't affect the game too much (success).

I dont see what difference it makes if you get them for free or if they get easier to attain, the core is the same - they lose thier psychological reward function.
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9499430938?page=43#844

I already posted something similar (and more detailed) in the US forum "Loot 2.0" thread, but it deserves mention here:

Instead of making PL account-wide, consider reducing the effectiveness and the cap of MF/GF.

Currently, the difference between 0 MF and 600 MF is just absurd. I'm talking about "no legendaries in a hundred hours" to "5 legendaries in an hour" kind of absurd.

Make the cap something like 200%; half from PL and half from MP. Make it work like what it says on the tin: X% more likely to find magical items; in this case, legendaries.

0 MF ---> ~1 legendary in ~X hours (base value)
200 MF ---> ~3 legendaries in ~X hours (2 times more likely / 3 times the base drop rate)

This way, neither playing your highest PL char nor playing on the highest MP is mandatory, but the top PL/MP players still have the edge (3x drop rate is just good enough).
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This Would be AMAZING
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If u reach plvl100 u can make +300MF gem(BoA) to ur Hat :P
I think this is the simplest way.
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Community
Posts: 2,582
Feedback on what you'd like to see in a shared Paragon system is very much appreciated, and we encourage everyone to do so if you feel like it. There is a lot of potential in a system like this, and we're very excited about seeing how the new Paragon system turns out.

Here's a couple of example questions you can ask yourself to help get you started.

  • Would you like to see shared stats?
  • What stats would you like to see shared?
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    MVP
    Posts: 8,199
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    I guess if I were to revamp the Paragon system, then I'd probably keep it class-specific to begin with.

    And then I'd probably reset everyone's Paragon level back to zero, because what fun is a new Paragon system if you're already done with it before even trying it (and I'd probably compensate players with a Feat of Strength for having reached Paragon level 100 in the old system)?

    Then I would probably remove the Magic Find from the Paragon system, and then just make all loot drop as if you had 300% Magic Find.
    The only way to modify loot chances should be 1) choice of Monster Power, 2) single player or multiplayer, 3) Nephalem Valor stacks, 4) Fortune Shrines.
    The problem with Magic Find is that the game first becomes really fun once you've acquired a lot of Magic Find, which means you need to reach a fairly high Paragon level. In short: You have to play Diablo III for a lot of hours before it actually starts to be fun and rewarding. That's dumb. It's better to just remove Magic Find then, and make it so the game is fun and rewarding from the get-go – and make it so it can only get more fun and rewarding (Nephalem Valor stacks, Shrines, etc. – positive reinforcement).

    Then I would probably take the passive skills system in Diablo III and scrap it all-together. And then I'd create a new game system akin to skill trees from Diablo II (would call them talent trees instead though :P).
    It would only have passive skill choices, like the Barbarian's Combat Masteries from Diablo II. So ways to increase damage with certain types of weapons. Faster run speed. Higher defenses. More resist. etc.. And it would have as many of the passive skills from Diablo III as makes sense (like Ruthless, Nerves of Steel, Bloodthirst, Boon of Bul-Kathos, etc.)
    And there would be different trees for each class.
    And like in Diablo II, the more points you dump into a skill, the better it becomes.
    The choices wouldn't be permanent, but it would cost a truck load of gold to undo just a single point (let alone all 100 points).

    Something like that probably :)
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    I guess if I were to revamp the Paragon system, then I'd probably keep it class-specific to begin with.

    And then I'd probably reset everyone's Paragon level back to zero, because what fun is a new Paragon system if you're already done with it before even trying it (and I'd probably compensate players with a Feat of Strength for having reached Paragon level 100 in the old system)?

    Then I would probably remove the Magic Find from the Paragon system, and then just make all loot drop as if you had 300% Magic Find.
    The only way to modify loot chances should be 1) choice of Monster Power, 2) single player or multiplayer, 3) Nephalem Valor stacks, 4) Fortune Shrines.
    The problem with Magic Find is that the game first becomes really fun once you've acquired a lot of Magic Find, which means you need to reach a fairly high Paragon level. In short: You have to play Diablo III for a lot of hours before it actually starts to be fun and rewarding. That's dumb. It's better to just remove Magic Find then, and make it so the game is fun and rewarding from the get-go – and make it so it can only get more fun and rewarding (Nephalem Valor stacks, Shrines, etc. – positive reinforcement).

    Then I would probably take the passive skills system in Diablo III and scrap it all-together. And then I'd create a new game system akin to skill trees from Diablo II (would call them talent trees instead though :P).
    It would only have passive skill choices, like the Barbarian's Combat Masteries from Diablo II. So ways to increase damage with certain types of weapons. Faster run speed. Higher defenses. More resist. etc.. And it would have as many of the passive skills from Diablo III as makes sense (like Ruthless, Nerves of Steel, Bloodthirst, Boon of Bul-Kathos, etc.)
    And there would be different trees for each class.
    And like in Diablo II, the more points you dump into a skill, the better it becomes.
    The choices wouldn't be permanent, but it would cost a truck load of gold to undo just a single point (let alone all 100 points).

    Something like that probably :)


    I really like all your ideas, especially the parangon reset (necessary if a meaningful revamp occurs) and the passive skill tree (not so sure about the mf change, I don't mind removing mf from parangon levels, but I always thought mf on gear was an interesting choice, instead of going full dps like we are doing right now).

    The passive skill tree could have a huge choice of skills : stat buffs and existing passives as you mentioned (and other class specific passives) but why not also perk like gaining the possibility to have a follower in multiplayer games, having 2 followers in single player, passive skills affecting loot (increased chance of looting jewelry, weapons, ilvl 63 items, demonic essences or 50% chance of looting perfect square gems instead of flawless square gems), etc...

    Then there are 2 possible philosophies about the tree itself :

    - The classic way, as you explained it with a limited amount of points and respecs

    - The long grind way : When you reach max level you have acquired enough points to get all the skills in the tree. In order for this to work, reaching max level must be extremely long or we will be at the same point we are now (got all our skills very quickly then bored). Or maybe they could add a new tier of skills in the tree and increase the level cap every X months.

    To answer Takralus' question, I am not interested in sharing parangon levels nor stats. If the parangon system is fun, we will have fun leveling our characters, like I had fun leveling my characters to lvl60 and enjoyed having new skills and runes every level !
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    Make skillrunes available only after investing points in them.
    Until paragon 1, no skillrunes are available.After paragon 1, you can allocate points,and unlock skill runes.Putting more points into a rune will make it better.
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    Dont dream about skill points. Dont dream about any points!
    I think, it is great intervention to game system. And its not very good for console D3. Too late. Cards are dealt...
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    Hello, everyone, here’s my humble contribution to this discussion. Since it’s pretty long and can be a bit technical at times, if you don’t feel like reading go at the bottom of this post and read the conclusions.

    ...still here? Good, my two readers, let’s begin! ^_^
    I’ve been thinking about the paragon system and how to change it to account bound and i thought the best solution would be not to change it to something else, but rather to add a new layer to it, in other words:

    Two distinct Paragon Leveling Systems
    This idea would mean having the current Paragon Levels work as they currently do, but at the same time transfer a portion of the experience (let’s say 20%) gained to a second, account bound, Paragon which will level independently from the other.
    Let’s have an example:
    The Level 60 Character Barbarolo kills an enemy and gains 100 exp that goes to his normal Paragon exp. If he needed 1000 exp to level up, he now only requires 900 exp. So far, everything works as normal. At the same time, though, 20% of that exp, or 20 exp, in this specific case, goes towards the Account Bound Paragon Levels (AB Paragon from now on), which will now require 20 less exp to reach the next level. If we needed 1000 xp for the next AB Paragon, we now need 980xp.
    If, at that point, the player switches to his other level 60 character, Monkolo, who needs 5000 XP to reach the next Paragon level and kills an enemy worth 100 xp, Monkolo will now need 4900 xp for the next level, while 20% of that amount, once again 20 xp, will go toward the AB Paragon. Since we needed 980 xp for the next level, thanks to those 20 xp it will require now 960 xp.


    This is the basic idea, upon this we can build lots of different possibilities to make this system work and be worthwhile, in the following paragraphs i’ll explain mine.


    The leveling speed

    Now that i’ve shown in a clear way how this should work at a basic level, i think i should explain in more details how the system is supposed to work.
    First of all, let’s say that total amount of experience needed to get to AB Paragon 100 is equal to the total amount required to reach a normal paragon level 100. It stands to reason that since the AB Paragon receives 20% of the exp any character gets, it will require 5 times the normal amount of exp to get to level 100.
    What this means, as you probably guessed, is that it will take the same time as getting 5 characters to Paragon 100 to achieve this elusive AB Paragon.
    Since not all people enjoy playing with alts, though, it is imperative that characters don’t stop getting AB Paragon exp after reaching the standard paragon level cap, so that if one wishes to play with one character only, he may do so without being penalized for it.

    As for the leveling progression, though, i think it should be a linear progression, so that rather than requiring a small amount of exp to get to the next level in the beginning and a big amount in the end, it should always require the same amount.
    Let’s make an example:
    Let’s say that you need 1000 xp to get to Paragon Level 1, then 2000 xp to get to Paragon Level 2 and it goes on like this until you get 100000 to get to Paragon Level 100. In truth the numbers are much different, of course, but the theory is the same.
    If you sum it all, it requires 1050000 xp to get from level 0 to level 100. The AB Paragon should, instead, require 1/100 (1050000/100=10500) of that number for each level, so it would require 10500 xp to get from level 0 to level 1 and the same amount to get from level 99 to 100.


    This may sound strange, but i ask you to accept this for now, the reason will become clear after i’ve been able to talk of the rewards.

    The rewards
    Being a leveling system, of course it requires some form of rewards to make it feel like you’ve he really progressed but in this case we have a leveling system that is very slow, in this case it will take 5 times as much time as a normal Paragon to achieve level 100. While this means that it’s longer and more tedious than the Paragon we’re used to, it also means that we can give more substantial rewards for it. Before we start listing the amazing bonuses that we might get, which i’d say have been sufficiently discussed by other people on this thread, let’s take a look at the main one, the one that make it all take a different form.

    Bonus Experience
    Every AB Paragon gives the player a 5% bonus to experience gained
    This means that you get a 100% bonus at level 20, which will take the same time as leveling a single character to Paragon 100. At that point, to make the next 20 levels will require approximately half the time (a bit less, actually, but i’ll happily let someone else undertake the complicated task of setting up the spreadsheets ^_^ ), which, of course, also means that leveling a second character to Paragon 100 will require half the time and the time needed will decrease further as we climb the levels.
    By making a rough calculation, i’d say that to get to AB Paragon 100 would require a little more than twice the time it currently take to bring a single character to Paragon 100

    There’s a method to this madness
    As you may remember, i said earlier that AB Paragon will always require the same amount of exp to get to the next level, but since for every level we get an increased amount of exp (thanks to the bonus exp), it actually means that leveling will become faster as we progress.
    This, of course, means that the two paragon systems will work in reverse, one being easy in the beginning and harder later on, while the other working the opposite way.
    While this may seems pure madness, it actually gives us some advantages:
    Since it actually takes a while before you start gaining the first AB Paragon Levels, it also means that the current character based Paragon system will not immediately be affected, so that it won’t make it too easy for a new player to achieve paragon 100 on his first character. This, of course, means that new players won’t burn too easily through a content that’s supposed to take a while.
    It must, also, be added that, while the experience that goes towards the AB Paragon is 20% of the experience gained by the character, the amount of experience to level up of the two systems is not the same. The amount of exp to level up in the AB Paragon is always the same, in the example i made it would be 10500, equal to 1/100 of the total exp required to get to AB Paragon 100, while the amount of exp for the first Paragon Levels is much lower and increases with each level. If we consider the example i made, with the amount of exp to level up increasing by 1000 each time, we would make the first AB Paragon approximately as we reach Paragon 10 with one character. Only at that point we’d start to see the first effects.
    What this means is that:
    - Players who wouldn’t have normally achieved Paragon 100 will have some bonus, but will still be unlikely to reach that goal any time soon.
    - Players who play a lot will have a new goal to reach, one about as hard as getting two characters to Paragon 100
    - Players who like to play alts won’t feel as much penalized for not playing their main

    The remaining rewards
    At this point, we have 2 leveling systems, one character based, the other account based, and the account based one requires a lot of time before you start to get good rewards, while the account based one will give something good from the start and then require increasing amounts of time to get more. This means that we can choose different rewards based on the fact that we have two very different systems and this diversity will allow some interesting possibilities. What possibilities, you may ask? Well, i think that i shouldn’t be the one to suggest them, i’ve already given you a lot to digest with this. I expect, though, that we could at that point switch the plain stat increases to the AB Paragon and the special and interesting ones to the character specific Paragon system.
    Before i leave you, though...

    A possible different way
    Yes, i know that there are people who want to take more time with paragon rather than less, so i thought about this, too. Simply make it so that the bonus exp becomes a skill obtained at Paragon level 1, that can be disabled for those who prefer to take more time. I know that it’s not as hardcore as many would like, but it’s important to accept that this game is played by a lot of different people.

    In conclusion
    Ok, you’ve got the idea, the main thing is, don’t remove the Paragon from single characters, but rather add Account Bound Paragon (maybe with a different name to prevent confusion) alongside the normal one and make it so that it gives bonuses to make switching characters less problematic (like an exp bonus).
    By the way, i forgot to mention it, but we should probably have separate AB Paragon Levels for normal and hardcore characters, i suspect hardcore players would expect this.

    Edit: After watching my post i realized how long it is. Sorry for being so long winded...
    Edited by Kroheike#1575 on 05/08/2013 21:17 BST
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    I'd like to see movement speed is shared. There are only a few end-game MS gears available. It is so repeative that every char need to get some of them like inna's pant and lacuni etc.

    Also like to see portait icon shared. So if i have a plvl100 monk, my plvl12 wiz should have a red backgroup portait icon also, so when i played in co-op or party that no body think I am a noob. Instead, they can easily spot that I am just running my alters.
    Edited by caiqian#1669 on 06/08/2013 05:38 BST
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    05/08/2013 14:29Posted by Takralus
    Would you like to see shared stats?


    Can you clarify? All this fuss about this shared Paragon system lately and I honestly don't see what the big deal is. Shared "stats" as in STR DEX INT and VIT? or just MF/GF? or something else I'm not familiar with here? Just play the damn game in my opinion. Loot will drop accordingly.
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    I think this is a very good topic.
    I have to say also ..dont make the paragon lvl account wide.
    I am working very hard to get to paragon 100 and even on my other chars.
    If they would make it account wide i would feel like i waisted time.
    I never have been into real lvling..i play all my chars for fun it would be nice if they would put a ad on.
    Like skills enhancements. What i loved about d2 was that you could change your own skills into what you like to have. This would be great if this would come back in d3.
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