Topic PvZ Guide : 3 Gate FE
Edited by Grunt on 25/01/11 17:27 (GMT)
3 Gate FE is safe and strong build against zerg
This build works on any map and is extremely safe against early agression.
You dont have to go 100% by the book but having 6 sentrys will let you defend against larger force and still come on top.
You can mix it up with hallucination,faster robo,blink or even stargate but have the general feeling when to expand.
9 pylon 13 gate 14 gas 18 core 19 gas
zealot and sentrys
+2 gates when you have the minerals
6 sentrys +1 zealot move out build nexus add forge and 4th gate and pylon at your natural
build 1 cannon (vs speedling harrass and detection for burrowed roaches)
+1 attack and armor upgrades.
add robo asap and build 1-2 observer
make whatever gateway army you can afford
get 2-4 immortals after the observers if you see he has alot of roaches
add robo bay (colossi if no mutas) and twilight council (+2+2 upgrades and blink for mutas/broodlords)
take your 3rd base if theres no massive 2 base all in coming.
after your 3rd is up add +4 gates and some cannons to defend.
mass up gateway army + colossi and keep your upgrades running.
take your 4th base when your main is about to dry out.
add addinational tech (dt,ht,stargates) as you see fit.
dt's is the best choice because you have the ground attack/armor upgrdes. when they get detection up on every base you can morph them into archons wich deal and take sick damage vs bio and zerg kinda lack mech units so they are never bad.
Chronoboost is probably the best macro mechanic in the game. We can use it for better economy , faster tech or more army.
Spend your chrono boost on tier 2 buildings,probes ,forge upgrades and warp gate tech.
Move around with your army as much possible (take control of xel naga towers , destroy creep tumors , kill scouting lings/overlords) This forces zerg to make army units instead of drones.
You dont need to attack to harrass zerg you only need to show him/her that you might attack.
Every protoss unit is a support unit they dont work very well on their own but when you mix them you have army that can deal with anything but we cant get good mix of units out of 1 base so we must expand.
If we tech out of 1 base we are pretty much stuck with that tech tree be it robo,twilight or stargate.
When you get maxed out 200/200 and your minerals start to skyrocket up to 3k~ just add 10 more gateways and when the big battle starts you can warp in ~40 food army instantly on the battlefield.
Cheap if not almost free expanding with protoss.
Nexus costs 400 minerals doesnt need a builder and gives +10 supply and more chronoboost
so basicly its only 300 minerals because it gives +10 supply
Zerg hatchery 300+50 for drone and only 2 supply.
Sure zerg doesnt need that many buildings but +1 hatch 2 queens spawning pool,roach warren,lair and speed for both units doesnt come cheap. I include the speed upgrades because without them the units are just plain useless. The benefits of not needing multipe buildings only shows at the very late game when they can pop multipe ultralisks or morph broodlords.
Protoss spending on 2 base
4 gates - 600
cybercore - 150
warp gate research - 100
1 robotics facility - 300
nexus - 300
Zerg spending on 2 base
Spwaning pool - 250
roach warren - 200
2x quuens - 300
hatchery - 350
ling speed - 200
roach speed - 200
Lair - 250
Zerg needs to spend just as much if not even more on buildings / tech to fight against protoss so playing a macro game against zerg doesnt seem too bad just remember to build and chronoboost your probes alot untill you have around 70 probes.
The comparison might not be 100% fair but it gives the big picture.
Hope you get something out of it GL & HF.
Edited by Ifrit on 24/01/11 09:04 (GMT)
What usually happens to me here is that I kill off his first army with my ball but lose to his reinforcements since he can pretty much build whatever fits the situation best while I can't reinforce that easily (at least the important units that don't come frome Gateways like Colossi).
For example he has a Roach/Hydra army with about 12-15 Corrupters. He takes out some Gateway Units but most of the Colossi. He reinforces either with 99% Roaches or some double digit number of Ultralisks and just steamrolls me.
That's why I tend to just go for 1 base play against Zerg like Blinkstalkers or 4 Gate which is quite boring. :(
Yea it's very safe and you can branch out to whatever it is you want after your FE as you mentioned.
I usually go 3gate FE -> +2 gateways -> push of doom at the ~10th minute mark (trademark nony) without building forge this early. If done properly it wins you the game the same instant, if not you should have at least crippled him a bit and have the advantage.
Ifrit seems like you either let the zerg drone too hard or your army composition doesnt have enough stalkers and sentrys or your own macro is worse than your opponents.. If you want to post a replay i can tell you what you did wrong. Protoss should be very confortable in PvZ macro game.
Im not saying that im crazy awesome top tier player myself but when i lose and watch the replay i can see what i did wrong and try to fix that.
Think it should be 6 gates and skipping forge + cannon or robo can be dangerous if they go roaches with tunneling wich is quite common because of the mass of sentrys nowadays.
If they dont then the 6 gate push will be fine.
Yea I think it's supposed to be 6gate as well but building the 6th gate before the 10th minute mark will require cutting units/probes, at least the way I'm doing it. I usually build the 6th a couple of minutes later(aka don't use it for the first push).
I agree that tunneling can be bothersome but I'm not running into it a lot tbh. When I do though I'm obliged to build a robo and macro up a bit before making a mid-game push a few minutes later. I think it's very unlikely he's gonna do a lot of damage with burrowed roaches if the robo wasn't late.
Damn we are so dependent on Robo to do anything! :p
Edited by marvellosity on 24/01/11 12:50 (GMT)
Why wouldn't you get an observer straight away? They're pretty cheap, fast to build, allow you to see what he's doing, allow you to kill Creep, allows you to move beyond your natural vs burrow tech...
Edit: the original OP was decent, but the number crunching was horrendous at the end. Nexus still costs 400 minerals even if you don't have to build a pylon LATER (nexus takes a while). And you're including ling speed and roach speed without including anything like colossus den for us.
yeah sure nexus costs 400 but we do get the +10 supply after 100 sec and you can even time it that you dont need a pylon when nexus finishes and you can spend the extra "100" minerals elsewhere.
As for the ling and roach speed is because non speed lings and roaches are slower than stalkers and if they want to fight back against smaller stalker force they have to face the forcefields and lose even more. even with their speed they cannot attack protoss with 6-9 sentrys + cannon and some stalkers and zealots.
We can compare the robo bay for a spire its the same price its the building zerg needs to counter robo bay. and 1 robo facility can produce enough colossus for it to extremely dangerous for zerg.
we can even compare stargate for hydra den because they need hydras against phoenix with range upgrade wich costs more than 1 stargate wich can produce enough phoenix to take over air control and even map control.
If they try to counter stargate + robo with bay with corruptors protoss can start making void rays and its gonna be a funny fight.
protoss needs 1 forge for upgrades because we start early zergs needs 2 evo chambers to keep up with upgrades and 1 cannon deny's natural expansion ling harrass wich equals for +1 evo chamber. zerg can start upgrading earlier but they face economical loss for building stuff that they dont need at that point 2 drones 1 for evo 1 for 2nd early gas.
zerg can gain back this loss of resources for upgrades by making more drones but they face a risk losing the game or taking damage when they do that. And its going to be even more harder to drone up when people start using more hallucinations to scout constantly very early in the game. It seems like zerg only option for some kind of map control is muta ling but good luck getting there without dying. zerg's need to win midgame fights wich requires insane unit positioning and some luck ... maybe something like protoss player F key isnt functioning.
I used to think that zerg had a good chance of winning against protoss if they attack from 3 different directions flank and get a surround but thats quite hard to do vs observers and 6-9 sentrys wich can place up to 36 forcefields.
Im up for arguments but try to understand my point and if you want to make your own argument please explain it in some detail.
When i win against zerg its 50% because i was better and 50% because it was my race and when i lose its 90% because my enemy was better and 10% because i f'd up.
Edited by Sandstorm on 26/01/11 00:39 (GMT)
Thanks for this thread Grunt. You re awesome!
I always wondered why every zerg gets two evolution chambers and get double upgrades. Why do they do that and P and T dont (at least not that often)?