To answer the questions:
1, Im talking in game time. Never real time. Real time is useless.
It will always be the game time.
That is what the game will use as progress recording for creating buildings, units, upgrades.
(I thought this to be self-explained)
2, You are correct(I did not verify that the approximate harvesting time remain at 8 seconds.)
I merely found the 3 drone pr unit explination somewhere, verified it on gas and made the assumption it was true for minerals as well. (Was easier to verify then tracking a single drone in that giant mix)
I have made a harvesting replay:
At 24 drones harvesting for 1 minute (from 12:59 to 13:59 - game time, watch the replay bar) 715-735 minerals a minute depend on when at the 13:59 marker you click pause.
The actual rate might be a little bit higher since they didnt all start on individual mineral fields. so I will round that bit up to 750 for easier use in calculations in the production section.
(The same penalty will apply to the 16 drone count of course)
the 16 drone count is from 15:30 to 16:30 615 minerals (through-out the 16:30 second)
so the difference is between 120-150 minerals a minute - game time.
The difference must be because at 24 drones, you have no crystal "down time" due to drones "running about" to find free crystals constantly.
But at 16 drones you allow "free crystal time".
8 drones are 400 minerals that means
and 8 drones on a free field are assumed to get approximately 300 minerals. That have to run 1,3333 ~ minutes (or 80 seconds) to pay for themselves.
8 drones extra on a 16 harvested hatchery bring in an additional 120 minerals. have to harvest 3,3333 ~minutes (or 200 seconds) to pay for themselves.
That means the last 8 drones pay for themselves slower by 2 minutes then the first 16 drones.
I use the "blue glow" a crystal gets as the marker for when to start timing.
All in game time. Verify from replay.
So yes there is an error in the assumption of harvesting time is approximately 8 seconds. when you build beyond the 16 drone mark.
I will update the guide accordingly! thank you for pointing this out.
(Until this error has been rectified please note that the equations are still true down the line, simply substitue 900 pr minute with the ~ 750 a minute.)
I will hold to the statement that 30 drones is the optimal count.
Not having those ~ 100 - 150 minerals pr minute might actually make a lot of difference, especially if your games last about 10 minutes. thats an additional 1000-1500 minerals over the course of 10 minutes.
I will have to play more games to verify how this effects gameplay, but I would assume,
not a whole lot.
Edited by Knobtremor on 15/08/2010 20:08 BST
Skatolls comments have shown something new! ( For me)
If you go for an expansion in at the 21-22 supply count as detailed in the buildorder, and keep going for extra drones saturating your original field to the count of 24 drones.
You can grab the excess 8 drones and move them to the expansion and increase your mineral pr minute count by ~150 minerals a minute for free.
Build a third expansion while saturating the original 2, and let you have 16 running on three expansions increasing production by 300 minerals for free by simply moving them.
This has altered gameplay for me significantly. I now have approximately 12 zerglings more to use in a early wall bust. (Big kiss for you skatoll.)
This has already put my game on a fast producing level. Check out my first replay with the new tactics:
I still make lots of mistakes, but look at the terran player, he can't do anything (Im still platinum league - yet he is diamond) :)
Edited by Knobtremor on 15/08/2010 21:04 BST
Knobtremor could u please post a few most videos, I am trying to learn zerg as I have always liked them but I find myself getting beaten more often than not. I think its down to my build order.
A few to watch would be really nice, would enable me to see how its done better. All vids are welcome if u have any where enemy focus on air attacks is appreciated
So far the only one with air, is the one I have from the protoss vs me in xel naga caverns, where the toss tries to phoenix rush me.
But I will as soon as I find some that either show a good loss, or good win. A half baked mistake filled replay, makes no sense to post as a learning replay.
(I have a few links to replays at the bottom of the PDF guide) just none really with air combat yet.
Edited by Knobtremor on 16/08/2010 09:30 BST
Hi and thanks a lot for this guide ! It's quite helpful.
I like that ZvT replay a lot, it's a good picture of what you say about attacking and using Zerg biggest advantage (spawn speed)...
I'm still playing in the begginer league on those boring modified maps, but I feel I'll soon take the step to the placement matches :D
Can anyone give me some advice on queens, I cant seem to use them effeciently (Spawn larvaes, Hatch the larvaes, repeat, While managing my army into battle.
Watch the hot-key link (last section of the PDF-guide) or in the queen description.
Also listed on the forum thread at section 10.
New version of the guiding being uploaded:
In the PDF build order section:
No we are not missing a "kill one drone" step. We have the "create spawning pool" step. This will reduce your supply by 1, as it will kill off the drone. Zerg buildings to not require supply.
Btw a new version of the PDF guide is up. Added more infomation on scouting and added a little extra to the building stuff at the beginning. Also fixed some typo's. (Although im sure there are many more)
Edited by Knobtremor on 18/08/2010 10:15 BST
Just chipping in about the mineral mining drones discussion:
16 drones per field is optimal minerals/second/drone
24 drones per field is optimal minerals/second
From 0-16 your minerals/drone is stable (they spend 0 time waiting at the field), and for each drone you build you decrease the time a mineral patch is unused. However, the travel time is only quite slightly longer than the mine time, therefore a 3rd drone on a mineral patch will mean that your mineral patch is never not being mined, but it also means that drones will have to wait from time to time.
All the time between 16 and 24 you are therefore getting on average less minerals per drone, but more minerals per second.
Because of the fact that some mineral patches are slightly further away from your hatch, if you get really bored, you could micro the drones from 16-24 to start with the patches on the outside before saturating the middle ones (technically this should make a difference. haven't tested in practice).
For vespene it's almost the same, but because you have to waste a drone to build the extractor, the math works out a bit different. It is FAR more economical to have 3 drones on one extractor than build a second extractor for that 3rd drone. There was a long thread on TL testing all of this at one point during beta, but I can't really be bothered to find it.
Allot of work and dedication put into this guide and tutorial. I read it all and it's filled with usefull information, and even information that that u already know but were forgetting about, or overlooking it because of other priorities during a game.
Hope that players will appreciate your effort as much as i do, thumbs up, and thank u again :)
The only thing i would consider usefull for the PDF, would be an index before starting the guide, so u can jump directly to a page/title u are interested in, instead of scrolling untill u find it.
7. Countering unit formation tactics Pag.14
7.1 Terran Pag.14
7.2 Protos Pag.15
Or something like that
Edited by Rebound on 18/08/2010 14:53 BST
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