Topic WW2 Diplo ported over to EU!
Edited by FockeWulf on 21/10/11 07:20 (BST)
Hey all this is FockeWulf,
I'm a map maker over on the North American Server.
Got a bit of free money from a relative I do not have fond memories of (and not alone in that reguard) so I decided to waste as much as I could. So I payed what is around $80.00 USD (SC2 costs $60.00 USD over here) for a European Copy of SC2.
Now that the formalities are out of the way, let me explain why you should play this:
After looking over your battle.net server I realised that there are no Diplomacy maps on EU worth speaking of. So I'm going to host what is consistantly the most popular diplomacy map on NA.
Here are some pictures of why it has such a diehard community that Blizzard seems to be doing everything they can to repress:
Now thats the one of the unique parts about it. The other is that it has a fully functional Amphibous system.
The map itself is straight foward (providing, given my experience, your IQ is at least 100).
You have 3 land platoons, 5 era research tecnologies in a single structure, 4 Large Naval Warships, 2 Escort Naval Warships (anyone who knows anything about WW2 will quickly reconize these ships), and of course, the dreaded U-boat (Submarine). Yes the submarine does go invisible when submerged and you need the destroyer to see it (remember those 2 escorts I told you about?). Then there is diplomacy and finally the special units.
I have a quick 3 page tutorial showing you where everything is to get you started.
Note: DON'T FORGET THE RESEARCH FACILITY!! (too many people do).
This map is a niche map and as such on NA, at least, has a very, very, very (need I say more?) diehard and dedicated community that refuses to let the map die.
Official map forums are here: http://www.udmod.com/forumdisplay.php?90-WW2-Diplo
The North American Teamspeak 3 for Diplomacy maps is here: teamspeak.gamingrapture.net
And on NA we have a channel simply called: "Diplomacy" for all Diplomacy games. (might want to make one yourselves)
Oh yes the map name: "WW2 Diplo EU"
If there is sufficient interest in Diplomacy over in EU I can talk to the other 2 diplomacy makers (Cerebrate and Oblivion) to see if we might get Diplomacy of War and Diplomacy 7.1 Gold over here as well.
Have fun guys, I will be checking back once in a while and perhaps getting a few games going over here.
And you say blizzard is trying to repress the map/community, why exactly?
I doubt there's any action from blizzard's side, at which this community or map would be at a disadvantage.
So please do explain why you're putting blizzard's name through the dirt, claiming they're trying to repress a custom-map community. Because as it is now it seems like you're just talking random stuff to look more interesting.
It's widely recognised that Blizzard's custom map system is rubbish because it only shows the most popular maps, so that newer maps are much harder to play on, and so only the same maps ever get played.
Want at list? Its been all of the NA forums. Only one or 2 of the Blizzard forum staff even post over there for fear of being trolled.
1. The fix has is extremely simple. After over a year and a half, not fixing it cannot be considered anything but intentional.
2. In fact I have gotten confirmation it IS intentional. Had a good chat with Sixen where he confirmed that they are holding off any fixes to the custom map system until HotS because it could be a "selling point". And yes I know what that means. It might be a viable idea over on NA where the custom map community at least still exists. But after a look around custom maps on EU is ****ing dead.
3. Maps over here are averaging less than half the hours played than on NA. And the "Looking for custom games" channel is desolate on EU, whereas on NA its still alive - if dying.
4. Check the Blizzard custom map blogs. They won't even feature good and deserving maps. It took them almost a year to "apologize" to Rodrigo and feature Nexus Word Wars (a map they banned because Rodrigo simply integrated a full-blown dictionary without going through each individual word). They also tend not to feature maps they say they will feature.
5. Blizzards map feature choice tends to be.. pretty bad overall.
6. They have not released a single damned statement nor has any of their forum or PR people given any reconition to the problem.
Edited by Stewox on 03/11/11 22:40 (GMT)
Great - i've been over on that site i frogot it's name again UNCONFEDENTIONALDESIGN or how ... im not on my own pc now and google doesn't find it either.
I can confirm what FockeWulf is trying to say - Blizzard doesn't want total conversion mods, about the bnet i don't have much idea but i am highly involved in the sc2mapster community as well as other mods, i've seen great work done on unconfedentionaldesign(wrong spelling) that is really what you call "total conversion" mod.
It might be easier now that we get more tools for HOTS ... but i have said over and over again how the sc2 editor is not even friendly to make a TC mod and the dependency feature that also offers maps to be very small in size is also the main PROBLEM when making a TC mod and you change everything you need the full XML code tree and everything there so you can easily re-write it or delete, you have nothing to save space so that editor should have some kind of support but the point is Blizzard doesn't want that imo, they don't want stuff like C&C or Company of Heroes or anything else copyrighted to turn up - they throw anything down you can read in the ToS or EULA - and also everything you make is their property.
EU still has no Bug forums - come on.
Pretty much yes about the forum posts, the only thing is they help noobs with their PC stability problems, pretty much 20% of that is real genuine issues with the game - That's why we need bug forums. For those that know what is a game bug and what a PC issue. I have no issues my self because i know to use my PC in the first place, nothing to fix if nothing's wrong in the first place, or if anything happens like it did with the game's bad memory management, which with further testing i found a small memory leak, and i just make appoprite thread on pc tech forums, so please for bug forums so we can distinguish - between these and these since now all the IMORTANT bug thread are burried by the noobs asking why sc2 cant run on their stupid asus laptop. make a custom PC , why the heck you buy OEM branded/assembled PCs - expensiver and crap hardware choices.
Edited by FockeWulf on 04/11/11 17:25 (GMT)
The stupid thing is... WW2 Diplo isn't a Total Conversion.
And the "not many people play it" part is also a problem on NA (although having the dev in the right timezone helps).
I have been trying to get the map featured. Heck me and 6 others posted on the latest custom map blog IN A ROW saying the map needs to be featured. 2 of them I've never even seen or heard of before.
Anyways, as soon as Blizzard support takes down WW2 Diplo EU (which is on a locked account due to billing issues) I can post an updated version.
In this version are these things:
And also a Light Cruiser.
My modeling buddy Biohazard is working on retexturing all the models, my stuff is only meshes and roughe textures.
Edit: Oh ya the forums are on UDmod.com
Ok people a few updates:
First of all the published name has been changed from "WW2 Diplo EU" to"WW2 Diplo Europe".
This is due to my conversation with European Blizzard support about removing the map.
They are telling me they cannot remove a map from Battle.net on an account that was never payed for and is now perminately locked.
So now I have to publish it under my alternate accoutn which was transferred over to EU.
Besides that, here is a thread from which you can see just what we are doing to WW2 Diplo :)
In that thread is a complete tank list. There are over 20 different tank models we will be making for the map ALONE.
Also the new updated version will have the new naval light cruiser, battleship, and king tiger models.
My statement of saying "there are no diplo maps worth speaking of" was based on a quick search for "diplo" and finding vertually nothing.
Also replacing the 2 naval warships has managed to reduce the latency the naval ships cause by 50% or more.
Hi my name is UloseTheGame, and I am going to VOUCH for this map, because, along with A Clash of Kings, this ties for first place as the king diplo map on SC2. Where Game of Thrones is more of a LoTRish, this one is for those who enjoy large scale battles and long term strategy, as opposed to quick victories and a game of betrayals and politics(which is A Clash of Kings/A Game of Thrones). I highly recommend friending fockewulf, because he is a good guy, and I think his map is awesome, thank you.
Some more stuff inbound into WW2 Diplo:
FockeWulf, UloseTheGame in the name of all Europeans I offer you our apologies. Few people know about your map, your really !@#$ing awesome map and it's because the retard popular system. Really Blizzard? What the hell were you thinking about?
I read all your comments in NA forums and I completely agree with you. Blizzard killed all mapmaker's ambition with this system, it destroyed the custom map community that came from SC1 and WC3 (I am included in that community who played WW2 DIE, I mean all kind of WW2 but specially DIE, all kind of LotRish, Rise of Rome...) 1 year and a half has passed and there is not improvements with the joining system, at first I was really mad about that, I was like, "what the %^-* you did blizzard? I hope you fix it soon, why you changed a thing that worked very well on the past?" But after a year and with no changes, this gets really annoying...
Anyway, good work with your map, I really like it when I played in "fun or not fun" with 3 or 4 guys who didn't leave in that second. It was the only way to played it because no one try to join (4 or 5 page, I don't know where it is). It gave me nostalgia and good feeling. In my opinion, in order to get more people playing it, I think you have to start with one more simple, I mean, like SC1 based. Barely modify things, SCV have to build common buildings (Depots, CC, Barracks, Bay, Bunkers, Turrets...), don't introduce technologies (It isn't bad for me, but for other people seems it), Barracks should build marines, ghost, medics... easy units. Just with name modified like Machine Gunner... Rifleman. It's cool when you spawn like 6 units with one buy but some people may get annoyed with that. Much units may lead to much lag so take care with it. I like the way you consider the borderlines, those turrets who don't attack buildings. Well, If I'm not wrong, I think all diplo/ww2 games came with Rise of Rome or Empire Earth or I dont know who was the first, but remember that you had to start with one SCV, one CC, one Barrack, few units, and you had to conquer since the beginning, little by little. That was awesome. After that I believe that those games improved in Diplo/WW2 who gave you the structures built and a giant (or not) army in order to invade. The point is, maybe you have to start with a simple model of the game to stands the people out like other guys did in the past.
By the way, I hope the arriving patch is going to fix the custom map list problem. Thanks for making this map =) Ah! And the Clash of Kings map is awesome too. It's like "classic LotRish without arbiters with their recalls" Love it! You guys are genius and I hope that your dreams about making maps didnt break at all.PS: Don't be grammar !@#$, maybe I committed some mistakes or repeated some words or expresions.
I think he's simply insulting blizzard's lack of support for custom mapmakers.
Fockewulf, the EU custom map community is not dead- it is simply harder to find than what you might first expect. There are private chat channels for maps that you can look in (just use the most obvious things possible, such as Marine Arena or Storm Of The Imperial Sanctum), to find the people who still play. Actually I was bored today and I went on Fun or Not, and you get a LOT of diplomacy maps there: although most are unfinished, there are a few (civilization sapphire is the one I liked most) that are good maps just waiting to be discovered.
Blizzard should add a spotlight section- where players can vote on popular, promising titles, or remakes of SC1 classics- it would contain 3 or so maps that would receive A LOT of attention, to allow them to be boosted up the popularity system. Also I'd like to say here that there are good games in the works on the EU side of the world.... ready to be released on the wave of new players that will come with HoTS.
Yo Focke. Wanna swap mine for your NA account?
EU server is a joke. A good 2/3 of the players you come across can't speak English, or their English is god-awful it's pointless trying to co-operate with them, or they just don't communicate at all. Don't get me started on the Russians.
As for the maps... well, you get the dodgy Russian, German or French map that most people can't even understand anyway because it's the EU where everyone speaks a different language to the other. There are a good few unique maps by the EU community however - the most unique being The Final Frontier, the most complex map to date on SC2 I'd have to say.
NA might be full of Americans, but who cares when you can actually communicate and work as a team?
I really do appreciate the gesture. However if you want to have a real impact you need to make it clear to Blizzard that you won't be buying HotS until battle.net is fixed to your satisfaction.
As to what the patch will actually be fixing, in my opinion, I'd suggest you look at the following: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4366250203
It shouldn't. You have to be careful when you read things and you need to analyse them else you'll let them mislead you.
He is referring to a Blizzcon blog posted on 24 Oct 2011, which seems to focus on Blizzard Dota more than the mod tools and changes to the custom map system that we want. So a vast majority of that info is gonna be out of date. We already know they have changed alot of the melee additions - such as Shredder and they are also contemplating the removal of the Warhound. They also stated at a later date the addition of open games. This is all old information, and I don't know why it's suddenly been bought up.
It's really only been this year that the big news on patch 1.5 has come through, with the accurate and up-to-date information on what it really will do.
Couple of things here.
Do beware that considering how badly they've gutted their bnet team: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/careers/directory.html#region=Americas it is not very likely that it will be changed.
That "Lead Designer" post has been open for nearly a year now.
Next is: I will be updating WW2 Diplo here soon. It would be up already except I had a patch error with my EU client that forced me to redownload. At 350kb down... it will take a little while.
Whats in the update:
-Special Unit System fixed. It will now work the first time you select a special unit and it doesn't breakdown near as quickly as the old system did. Nothing has changed outwardly its just the internal mechanics have been redone. It is controled via upgrades instead of behaviors now.
-2 New units! There is the 17 Pounder AT gun for Egypt and the Panzer III Ausf. J (Special) Medium Tank for Libya. This helps to fill that glaring gap in North Africa.
-Many of the shadows have been removed. This due to the suggestion of another modder. Ga... something... I kind of forget. If you are that person please post here so I can thank you again! Anyways this has greatly improved player lag in large battles - especially with lower-end systems. will be removing even more shadows later.
-Many other performance improvements.
-Panzer III (Spain) Upgrades have been fixed.
-Some small balance changes.Comming soon:
New Models for the naval warships- Already awaiting texturing are:
-Iowa Class Battleship
-Alaska Class Battle Cruiser
-Fletcher Class Destroyer
My texture artist came back. He is still pretty new but is very dedicated and I have no doubt that the end product will be great.
Also a quick note on balances:
-It has come to my attention that there is a general feeling that certain special units are overpowered. This is partially true in some cases but let me explain more throughly:
1. Small nations that have to expand quickly to survive have early game specials that assist in this. Let me list a few:
-Iceland: The Icelandic Marine (Special Troop) has sticky bomb. This is great vs structures and moderatly good against light armor. Iceland also starts with a slightly more powerful navy then either Great Britian or Norway. If Iceland is an experienced player they will be able to exploit that advantage and take out Great Britian, Scotland, Ireland, Denmark, Morocco, Portugal or Norway quickly.
-Czechoslavakia: the Panzer 38 (Light Tank) is the most powerful early game tank. It has a good anti-armor attack as well as a great anti-structure attack. This means that a good Czech player will be able to go a good number on the Germany player next door. It only takes 1934 armor upgrades.
-Romania: The Flamenwerfer 35 is the best anti-structure weapon in the game. You can literally Blitz your way into russia with this thing, as it does great against infantry and wipes structures. Just remember though, this game is about Combined Arms. Although you may have a powerful unit in one catagory it is vertually useless unless you mix it with other units. So don't just spam those things, otherwise a small pack of armored cars or infantry tanks will make you history.
-Switzerland: The Swiss Mercenary is a very long range riflemen. This allows the hill that Switzerland stands on to almost act like a fortress. It can shoot outside the range of any of the defenders so its a very effective unit. Also remember that unless they have a unit at the top they don't have vision of the units up there. On top of that the "Heavy Transport" will also climb those hills in Czechoslavakia and Switzerland. This is due to how the amphibious system works. So an experienced player can abuse that mechanic and do hit and runs from those places or flank choke points as well. Same with rivers. It can help force a bridge crossing if you use a couple of heavy transports to put an assault force on the other side of a river.
Also there are some nations that seem too powerful units wise.
The most common examples are Italy and Turkey.
-Italy: This nation is in a nasty spot. Yes she can expand in almost any direction but keeping with the historical nature she doesn't start out with enough economic resources to take on any of the major powers around her. France can wipe her and Germany can wipe her. But between the Black Shirt and the m.41 Anti-Tank Gun she can put up a good fight against German armor, Austrian Grenediers (Special Troop), French Foreign Legion and M10 Tank Destroyer. Without those units she has vertually no chance at all.
-Turkey: The 88mm AA/AT Gun is very powerful. It may almost seem to be an op unit. But keep in mind it is vertually useless against plain riflemen. Also Machine Gunners are effective as well. Its primary role is actually defensive. With her being on the border of the gigantic USSR and the mass of North Africa she is in a disadvantagous starting position. Yes she may have 2 cities but if she goes to war with anyone on the mainland Istanbul is effectively a write-off. The Middle Eastern Coalition has both the Bren Gun Carrier (Armored Car) and the Mk.III Valentine (Infantry Tank). USSR has both the T-34 (Medium Tank) and the IS-2 (Heavy Tank). Although the USSR units come in later she is still facing a lot of armor. The 88mm is a required if she is to survive. It can structures from outside their firing range and can hit armor hard.I'd also like to bring to your attention the following about heavy tanks:
Many people have complained that the King Tiger, IS-2 and Churchill are overpowered. I would like to dispell this fear. It is far more subtle than meets the eye.
Here are the anti-armor DPS values and fire ranges of the 4 heavy tanks in the game:
Chruchill: 14.285 @ 5.2
King Tiger: 26.087 @ 6
IS-2: 22.892 @ 6
Heavy Tank (default): 31.034 @ 4
Here are the HP and armor values:
Chruchill: 1000 @ 70%
King Tiger: 800 @ 70%
IS-2: 800 @ 70%
Heavy Tank: 900 @ 70%
Here are the costs:
Churchill: 110 mins & 78 supply
King Tiger: 160 mins & 105 supply
IS-2: 140 mins & 90 supply
Heavy Tank 120 mins & 82 supply
And one more factor:
The Churchill tank is the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill_tank
The important part is it's armor and its gun. The gun was only up to a medium length 75mm cannon. The Sherman ended up having more punch than that. It was in fact an infantry tank. The reason it got stuck in the "heavy" catagory is because of it's armor. Its designed to soak up damage.
So really in a heavy tank to heavy tank battle, the default is more powerful. The others only become powerful if they are used with other units. Once again Combined Arms. The difference with the others is that with the Default Heavy its in front of the battle line, with the chruchill its in the battle line and with the IS-2/King Tiger its behind the battle line. The IS-2 and King Tiger are powerful because they can sit back and take out enemy armor at long range. Granted 800 hp and 70% reduction is no small amount but a default heavy vs either of those and the default will win.
I hope you guys actually read that so you can consider what factors are taken into account when balancing WW2 Diplo.
I think you are doing a great work trying to balance the game in order to be more played. Well done! =) I hope it becomes in the first page of popular system.
By the way! Can I get your terrain map? I would like to develop a simple Europe Wargame map, maybe Rise of Rome or Empire Earth with 1-2 city starting game and getting expanding by the time.