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That's it guys, the patch is now live in US.

We are done here.

Thank god they didn't bother to use PTR for those minor changes.
Would be a waste of time.

21/02/2012 18:53Posted by Dassem

thats why i say terrans are idiot. u compare an SCV to a ghost???????? WTF????

Oh irony.

irony ? no!
if u really think that comparing ghost vs SCV is OK, then i have no question.
ghosts are coming out with abilities, so comparing dps i just stupid doesnt matter what blue says. its like comparing an Opel(140 km/h ;10.000USD) to a Ferrari(200km/h ;100.000USD). Oh yeah the performance/cost gonna favor the Opel, but the Ferrari is better. According to the posters analogy hes going to say that the Opel is better, but its not cuz the Ferrari gonna have more devices etc...
QXC can cry about ghost nerf but it was well needed but not in this form i agree. It was said to see on pro streams that 10-15 ghosts kill 70-80 supply worth of T3 zerg army. Its NOT balanced. Zerg had no real counter against ghosts ( toss has HT feedback), thats why it has to nerf in a way that wont affect TvP. Snipe change makes no affect on this match-up. But this changeis drastic. Decreasing the range makes no sense, so only the dmg could have been changed.
BTW BLs are still can be easily countered by T.
- Vikings with upgrades ( u split vs fungal)
- MArines still awsome ( ghost EMP infestor....)
- Raven ( seeker missele is AWSOME!!!!, and at leastu wont have to waste 1000 of scanes vs burrowed blings)
- if u go pure mech u can make BC( yamato... saw that on pro lvl stream)
- thor (with SCV support.. thor has air range of 10, BL has 9,5 range)

So little terrans dont have to freak out.

Thank god they didn't bother to use PTR for those minor changes.
Would be a waste of time.

Word.

Now someone has go try Ghost rush in TvT let's see how that works (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

21/02/2012 19:51Posted by FrostVVind

Oh irony.

irony ? no!
if u really think that comparing ghost vs SCV is OK, then i have no question.
ghosts are coming out with abilities, so comparing dps i just stupid doesnt matter what blue says. its like comparing an Opel(140 km/h ;10.000USD) to a Ferrari(200km/h ;100.000USD). Oh yeah the performance/cost gonna favor the Opel, but the Ferrari is better. According to the posters analogy hes going to say that the Opel is better, but its not cuz the Ferrari gonna have more devices etc...
QXC can cry about ghost nerf but it was well needed but not in this form i agree. It was said to see on pro streams that 10-15 ghosts kill 70-80 supply worth of T3 zerg army. Its NOT balanced. Zerg had no real counter against ghosts ( toss has HT feedback), thats why it has to nerf in a way that wont affect TvP. Snipe change makes no affect on this match-up. But this changeis drastic. Decreasing the range makes no sense, so only the dmg could have been changed.
BTW BLs are still can be easily countered by T.
- Vikings with upgrades ( u split vs fungal)
- MArines still awsome ( ghost EMP infestor....)
- Raven ( seeker missele is AWSOME!!!!, and at leastu wont have to waste 1000 of scanes vs burrowed blings)
- if u go pure mech u can make BC( yamato... saw that on pro lvl stream)
- thor (with SCV support.. thor has air range of 10, BL has 9,5 range)

So little terrans dont have to freak out.

I didn't see pretty much anyone disagreeing that Snipe should not be nerfed at all, everyone was pointing out that proposed fix was terrible.

Once Broodlord numbers get high Marines have no chance getting past Broodling wall, Seeker is not awesome, it's good at most, pumping it out takes years and energy cost is absurdly high.
And i beg you, Thors ARE NOT good against Broodlords.

21/02/2012 19:51Posted by FrostVVind

Oh irony.

irony ? no!
So little terrans dont have to freak out.

The amount of games you played obviously shows you do practice. So since you're gold with around 3200 wins (which means you probably played almost 6400 games) it is kind of logical to assume that you don't really understand this game at all. I doubt you even understand protoss matchups, let alone terran matchups, but you still feel free to give advice about late game TvZ which you know nothing about.

And you're calling other people on the forum idiots?

Yes, it is an irony.

21/02/2012 19:51Posted by FrostVVind

Oh irony.

irony ? no!
if u really think that comparing ghost vs SCV is OK, then i have no question.
ghosts are coming out with abilities, so comparing dps i just stupid doesnt matter what blue says. its like comparing an Opel(140 km/h ;10.000USD) to a Ferrari(200km/h ;100.000USD). Oh yeah the performance/cost gonna favor the Opel, but the Ferrari is better. According to the posters analogy hes going to say that the Opel is better, but its not cuz the Ferrari gonna have more devices etc...

I just L.O.V.E protoss players with the Tassadar portrait.

20/02/2012 08:31Posted by Accelerator

The real problem comes after the broodlords die, when the ultralisk switch comes and u can shuv those vikings inside uranus ( u know the planet ). 21 snipes to killa ultra is so sad

Yes because you won't have any other units dealing any extra damage to ultralisks so you need always 21 snipes! This nerf is needed because its ridiculous how terrans can mass ghosts without any viking support to kill brood lords already, this change just means that you need both vikings and ghosts to kill brood lords fast, or marauders and ghosts to kill ultralisks. Marines do well too because they just have too high dps with stimpack and +3 attack anyway...

Its not needed at all TVZ is pefectley balanced, how can a nerf be needed in a perfectley balance mu and one where Zerg usually wins in lategame scenario?

Mass ghost is just as expensive as broodlords or ultras, and they get wiped out by roach or ling bane, now Terran are going to die to tech switches because this nerf is too much.

Also they are nerfing lategame tvp mass zealot will be even stronger now and snipe wont counter them, they are screwing Terran over in lategame when we are arguably the worst race in lategame.

If they have to nerf snipe it should be vs massive units not light units too, how pathetic is it now that 1 snipe wont be able to kill a Zergling, when Storm can wipeout entire Zerg armys in seconds.

Yes because you won't have any other units dealing any extra damage to ultralisks so you need always 21 snipes! This nerf is needed because its ridiculous how terrans can mass ghosts without any viking support to kill brood lords already, this change just means that you need both vikings and ghosts to kill brood lords fast, or marauders and ghosts to kill ultralisks. Marines do well too because they just have too high dps with stimpack and +3 attack anyway...

Its not needed at all TVZ is pefectley balanced, how can a nerf be needed in a perfectley balance mu and one where Zerg usually wins in lategame scenario?

Mass ghost is just as expensive as broodlords or ultras, and they get wiped out by roach or ling bane, now Terran are going to die to tech switches because this nerf is too much.

Also they are nerfing lategame tvp mass zealot will be even stronger now and snipe wont counter them, they are screwing Terran over in lategame when we are arguably the worst race in lategame.

If they have to nerf snipe it should be vs massive units not light units too, how pathetic is it now that 1 snipe wont be able to kill a Zergling, when Storm can wipeout entire Zerg armys in seconds.

Yea I remember zerg winning many championships when it was ZvT in finals and games were 20+ minutes... OH wait.

Obviously blizzard wouldn't patch something if it was "perfectly balanced". And no, master league isn't pro level so whatever you experience in ladder can still be balanced in any direction and you can't really complain.

irony ? no!
So little terrans dont have to freak out.

The amount of games you played obviously shows you do practice. So since you're gold with around 3200 wins (which means you probably played almost 6400 games) it is kind of logical to assume that you don't really understand this game at all. I doubt you even understand protoss matchups, let alone terran matchups, but you still feel free to give advice about late game TvZ which you know nothing about.

And you're calling other people on the forum idiots?

Yes, it is an irony.

u just trolled urself, and proved im right :)
just think bro, thats all im asking :)

To be honest I totally get his point.

You should not bigmouth about things you have no idea of.

Yes but that is hardly reflected in the patch is it.

You talk about snipe versus broodlords and infestors and nerf snipe versus zealots marines workers and banelings.

And when asked why, you just ignore that and carry on about broodlords Ultralisks and Infestors.

Can't you just be a bit more honest?

Yes but that is hardly reflected in the patch is it.

You talk about snipe versus broodlords and infestors and nerf snipe versus zealots marines workers and banelings.

And when asked why, you just ignore that and carry on about broodlords Ultralisks and Infestors.

Can't you just be a bit more honest?

if they nerf snipe across the board they obviously thought snipe was too powerful versus everything

they are telling you this by the patch and not by the forums m8
btw i tried it out on unit test map, its still sick strong, its just a matter if the energy is enough now

I meant the situation report

http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/3684621/Situation_Report_Patch_143_-10_02_2012#blog

Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic We felt the Snipe ability was countering zerg broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well. Especially at the pro level, we were seeing a lot of games where terran players were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts to counter most of the options zerg players had at their disposal.

While we like to see creative and innovative use of units, we felt that in this case Snipe was becoming too effective against zerg’s most expensive units. When adjusting the ability, we tried to settle on a number that would allow using Snipe to remain a viable tactic, though not as powerful as it is now. With this change, brood lords will fall in ten casts of Snipe rather than six (taking into account health regeneration), while an ultralisk will die in 21 casts, up from 11. This also significantly increases the number of ghosts and stockpiled energy needed to pull this tactic off, which we feel confident about because, previously, terran players rarely needed to consider the energy on their ghosts units.

Here they just talk about nerfing snipe because of countering zerg teir 3 too well.

Then the fix is to deal with the situation.

So that's what I mean about being honest.

If you want to redefine ghosts role in the game to anti caster only then say it and explain why. Don't say Zerg Teir 3 and nerf it versus everything as that makes players think that Blizzard are not honest with them.

I agree with you here

I think I wasn't clear enough with my personal purpose of bringing the DPS example up, and it was taken a bit too far because of it. My point was: Ghosts have a decent complementary attack, which allows them to be effective on top of the two main reasons why you get them: EMP and Snipe. I didn't mean to say anything else than that :)

As you said, two main reasons to get ghosts are snipe and emp. You don't get ghost for their complementary regular attack. So strategy like ghost rush in TvT will obviously not be possible to pull off because since ghosts are much more expensive than marines, they need that kind of edge with snipe.

Again, Blizzard constantly claims only problem is with zerg t3 but you're basically redesigning the role of the ghost in general even though there is no need for it.

Kapeselus. OK then. Lets look ghost's situtation in tvz

Snipe: Anti bio skill. Target only. Deals 45 dmg. Mainly used against BL.
EMP: Anti caster skill. Small AoE. Deals no dmg. When think size of infestors 1 emp probably lower only 2 infestors energy... Only used against BL

After patch
Snipe: Anti caster skill. Target only. Probably only against casters.
EMP: Still same.

With patch balance team tries to encourage terran players to snipe infestors. The problem is we cannot reach infestors. Why? Infestors are atleast 3-4 range away from BL. With 9.5 range of BL they shoot before we reach infestors. Cloak? When you reach late game 4-5 overseers are in play and we need 9 snipe per overseer. (Including insta regen) Please tell me. How can I snipe these infestors?

(25 energy for 25 target dmg is a huge nerf.. 1 storm deals Minimum 20 aoe dmg 1 fungal deals 40 aoe dmg and... Snipe.... thats not good enough. We don't need 2 anti caster skill in 1 unit.)

Lots of people say ravens are the new counter. I will not answer them. I'll just quote Liquid Jinro's replies:

"Ive used ravens a lot with bio and its always the same story of rape 1 wave of broods, ultra switch destroys you because you have 20 food worth of flying garbage cans."

"Problem with going ravens vs broodlords is
1) Outranged by fungal
2) You kill 6 broodlords, zerg sees you have 10 ravens, laughs and makes ultras and you die instantly
3) You kill 6 broodlords, zerg sees you have 5 ravens and they have no mana now, zerg laughs and makes 6 new broodlords."

He said that :(

22/02/2012 09:50Posted by Kapeselus

I think I wasn't clear enough with my personal purpose of bringing the DPS example up, and it was taken a bit too far because of it. My point was: Ghosts have a decent complementary attack, which allows them to be effective on top of the two main reasons why you get them: EMP and Snipe. I didn't mean to say anything else than that :)

I think you didn't realize quite how bad the complementary attack of the ghost was: by no stretch of the imagination can you qualify the worst attack DPS/cost of all units in the entire game as 'decent'.

But that is not the main point here I guess: the biggest problem people have is that you've tried to address a tactic that was perceived as 'slightly too effective' in certain instances at top level play by using a sledgehammer approach that killed of lots of varied and interesting strategies for players at all levels.

Balancing by taking away options makes the game even more one-dimensional than it already is. Balancing by providing more ways to handle it effectively can only improve overall gameplay experience. Yeah, I'm sure it is not easy to do: but hey, that's what you guys are paid for, right?

20/02/2012 08:31Posted by Accelerator

The real problem comes after the broodlords die, when the ultralisk switch comes and u can shuv those vikings inside uranus ( u know the planet ). 21 snipes to killa ultra is so sad

Yes because you won't have any other units dealing any extra damage to ultralisks so you need always 21 snipes! This nerf is needed because its ridiculous how terrans can mass ghosts without any viking support to kill brood lords already, this change just means that you need both vikings and ghosts to kill brood lords fast, or marauders and ghosts to kill ultralisks. Marines do well too because they just have too high dps with stimpack and +3 attack anyway...

boy you can go play tetris !!!