Topic
ZvZ holding me back
sure u can se the one i uploaded that first, it was vs master, and ill keep sending some. |
Link please ? |
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Edited by Lightbearer on 26/03/12 10:58 (BST)
Im very interested to see this, replay please ? Because in my low league plays against silver-plat zergs, if you go hatch first you will lose 90% of the time to mass lings. Same if I see somebody get 15 hatch, I just mass lings and win 90% of the time. Of course this is not any high level play, but still. Also many go for 8-10 pool blind, and others at 12-13, in which cases I tend to be screwed too. Will the queens actually hold that ling aggression ? Even with spines ? If they add banelings it gets even worse for you to defend. And in some cases, if they somehow fail the aggression, they already have made hatch meanwhile, so they wont be that much behind in drones eather. Thats why I never go hatch first in ZVZ except maybe in Taldarim, which for some reason happens to be really popular 6-pool map........ I'm a rank 1 bronze playing silver/gold players. I think I would have been promoted by now if it were not for my ZvZ, which i lose about 75% of the time. Scout, Scout, Scout. You need to be active on scouting, and you need to react fast. And mostly be somewhat good at baneling micro. I know, because I tend to suck at scouting and baneling micro =P. Its also a big reason for me to not advance. There are lots of good zerg-guides in the forums/youtube, look them out. For me (as a gold player), 14 gas/14 pool works well as a general setup vs Zerg. Then you need to scout what he will do next, ill try to give examples, but I think many higher levels here can inform you much better. Anyways, here goes nothing, others can correct me if and when im wrong. This is how I react to stuff against fellow zerg; 1. If you see baneling nest, you propably need one yourself. You also need to know if he goes for aggressive/allin- build or chooses to expand too. If he expands, you can eather expand yourself with a spine/banelings, or make an aggressive bane/ling attack to kill his expansion and win. If he gets aggressive, I usually make a spine or two, depending how much left behind im at ling/baneling production. If I can defend that well, then its just counterattack to his base. If he makes desperation spines, Ill eather expand or make roaches, or like in most cases do both. 2. If he tries to expand fast or dont see him getting pool even at 14, get your pool asap if its not already down. Get gas/Queen/speed, mass lings and kill expo. You are usually at good situation after that. When I see im getting the expo, Ill usually try to get to main and finish him right there. If he starts to get banelings/blocks ramp/gets enough lings, Ill make my own expo as I attack, and protect it with queens/spines after I get his expo down. Usually I just make roaches after that and its a sure win, unless you mess up badly. 3. Like others have said here, spread your overlords all over the map. Keep sending lings to his natural/main, if you can. Keep close eye on the minimap and react fast. 4. Fast mutas are effective in low leagues, since most zergs dont have any anti-air except for 1-2 queens. I usually tend to avoid mutas in ZvZ, and I rarely lose to them. I most times lose to roach/infestors though, which imo is much smarter choice anyways. If the opponent is kinda passive and heavily turtles, try to send overlord/seer and check for the spire. In that situation I tend to do quite fast Lair myself just in case. If I see/suspect muta play, Ill just throw few spores and make Hydra-den(lol). When his mutas arrive, the spores/queens are enough, and with hydras you are in a good spot. With hydra/roach/ling you can push out to his natural, and just kill him, since he rarely has that much ground units. At times I get surprised with mutas with just few queens. Then I have usually sent all my units (roaches/lings usually) to his base, and forced the mutas back to defend. Meanwhile I have made spores+hydra den, and Im set to go. In that scenario, im not that good off though, since usually I have lost my main army in that attack, and im forced to use my resources to hydras. Not sure if it would be better to get infestors, but with 2-base its hard to get enough of them to get good defense against big muta numbers. |
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After having watched two replays from Klade's 15 hatch build i retract my previous statement. It's a Spanishiwa-type build which hold early attacks with Evos, Queens and Spines and gets 4 gases at about 40 Drones to build tech on.
Klade makes it work, but it's very APM-intensive and requires very good gamesense to stay alive in the early game. Also requires clever Drone-juggling to survive early pools with Spines i'd wager. I could never make it work with my 40 APM. Time to start laddering and improve my game i guess. |
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So much theorycrafting in this thread...
This build definitely works in the lower brackets (beating masters with it on a decent rate). The theorycraft problem is that you could potentially abuse it, but the window isn´t quite as big as people think. I only do 2 spines and 4 queens though. Any kind of roach push from the opponent is just autowin (you can drop 5 extra spines and STILL maintain eco advantage). If i see a lot of lings popping out, i also make more spines for extra safety. When you scout properly (count the drones from his expa), you can´t really die to all ins either. If his expa is delayed and/or if i don´t see drones coming out, i´ll keep adding spines (to a maximum of TEN) till he actually starts doing economy aswell. Where people tend to be wrong, is the sack of map control. With this build having used no gas earlygame, you will eventually have more mutas than the opponent + usually your spire will be a bit earlyer as well. If you have a lot of spines up, it´s a no brainer to go for mass ling+mutas. Your opponent can´t all in you with roaches and you can quite safely take a third. If he moves out with his roaches, you can safely just pick like 10 roaches with the mutas and cancel the third (only to instantly restart it). BEST THING to do vs. this build is to be very passive (which is very rare at least in high diamond/low masters) and go for a very early third. Even then though while behind, you aren´t lost in any way - as soon as your ling speed kicks in, you can take your third & start harassing his. Also in this case, you will not do a single spine over those 2 (possibly even not the second one if you get a good scout). But finally yes, i definitely think that in high masters players are able to abuse that tiny window where this build can´t move out of base. I don´t see it happening mid masters or below and most people reading this aren´t high masters/gm's. |
