Battle.net

04/04/2012 17:09Posted by appel

I think the ultimate proof of mutalisk imbalance is in team games. Two zergs sharing resources can pump out a huge flock of mutas very quickly, something over 30 mutas within a few minutes. That number vaporizes any number of stalkers quickly.

I stopped reading when you started using teamgames in a balance argument... stalkers suck against muta's but if your that incapable of getting HT/archons or even upgrades stalkers work well vs mutas by maybe 15 minutes quit the game and play LoL which doesn't require skill.

Stalkers do not suck against mutas wtF. Stalkers destroy mutas in even food and upgrade battles even though they cost half the gas and will almost always have higher upgrades. The reason they might seem to suck against mutas is when they attack into muta ling, stalkers effectiveness alone drops very low. That is not a balance problem, that is a l2p problem.

The Stalker sucks against the Muta only because it can't keep up. The Stalker has more total hp(160) that a Muta(120), is total cheeper(175) vs Muta(200). Stalker hits more vs Muta than Muta vs Stalker, Stalker hits 10 every 1.44 sec and Muta hits 9 every 1.5 sec. Then also has the Stalker 1 armor and the Muta has 0 armor. If you have a problem with the speed, get bink that you can get a extra shot of.

05/04/2012 12:44Posted by Nagas

hes baaack!:D welcome back appel i thought you quit sc2! yes, I know its a good game thats why your back :****

It's not funny to even pretend that it's a good thing.

holy !@#$ all the zergs on this forum just went crazy :D

Stalkers have to provide you with adequate defense against mutas, keep you alive until you get high templar with storm out, but they do that okay. They die to easily to mass mutas, but can hold them in small to medium numbers.

Fixed it for you.
You're welcome.

Haha storms I just laughed a little :D

05/04/2012 00:28Posted by Anchor

The more I look at the stalker, the more I think it is a really bad unit.

Strange, the more I look at the stalker the more I realise how good it actually is. They are the fastest unit in the early game besides lings and they are the most mobile unit when blink is researched. They are freakishly hard to kill with blink micro and impossible to pin down, even being able to escape from a full surround. And having 160 HP and being able to shoot air. You are only looking at it from the point of view of its low damage output, and you seem blind to the immense value the unit has.

Trade me the stalker for the hydralisk any day.

high DPS and cheap unit can lock down whole protoss air and good vs stalker, zealot sentry, immortal and archon ? oké trade me now !!!!!

Stalkers beat mutas in a straight up fight every time. But they should not be considered a counter to muta, because the zerg muta ball can quickly range between your third, natural and main killing workers. To counter muta harrass requires templars as well, or to go into redundant stargate tech which you don't want as phoenix are not good against zerg for the infestor reason mentioned earlier in the thread.

What needs to be done to change the balance is perhaps make an indirect change to stargate tech. Going air should be a viable Protoss strategy, and it just isn't. Why shouldn't toss be able to put out a decent Carrier/Phoenix or VR/Carrier/Phoenix composition? The reason why is that stargates produce so slowly and carriers and VR just lose against most enemy compositions.

To anyone who thinks phoenix range changed anything, they don't know what they are talking about. That's basically like saying 'Scout a Spire, build 2 stargates, build a fleet beacon, get range upgrade, build 5-10 phoenix, oh wait the mutas already killed all my probes.'

+1

1# Mutas can never trade effiently vs stalkers
2# both units are 2 supply and stalkers are twice as cheap and are quicker to reinforce
3# You should deffo have the upgrade advantage in this fight
4# add guardian shield and blink.. gg
5# I guess the main problem is that protoss players dont focus enough stalkers due to the fact that lings are so good vs them, but trust me, a maxed colo stalker sentry army only.. would never lose to any t1/t2 zerg army.

Thats a simplification.

Mutas are the agressor, they chose when and where to engage, not the protoss in this case. So unless you have superb map vision and awareness, you need to split your stalkers up to save your workers with any efficiency.

This was never a cost for cost battle, nobody except erdem complains about stalkers vs mutas in a straight up battle.

The problem is that even a huge blink right in under a flock of mutas often times doesnt even kill a single one. It takes 10 stalkers with +3 weapons to one shoot a muta. It is not enough to ever actually kill the mutas, all you can do is buy time for units like archons and storm to come out.

I think that the stalker is a bit of a wonky unit. Who wants a mobile unit with low damage output and high health? All other units that are fast and "harassy" are the opposite.

Sometimes I wonder why this forum gives Appel attention.

But yes... I heard storm was a good ability vs. Muta.

oh please, "QQ the mutas are to mobile!"

Then how is zerg players able to use broodlords then! Its the same thing, do a warpprism drop to distract the mutas while you attack his base, its not that hard. And stalkers will do enough against mutas until you get storm

oh please, "QQ the mutas are to mobile!"

Then how is zerg players able to use broodlords then! Its the same thing, do a warpprism drop to distract the mutas while you attack his base, its not that hard. And stalkers will do enough against mutas until you get storm

Have you ever know that mutas can also defend very fast and not only attack ?
So warp prism drops with four zealots would give ous -400 instant mineral, yes nice tactic !
As far as distraction protoss will gain 10 seconds advantage .....

ow and haha storms , I just laughed a little :D

ok bronzies,

stalker suck because they are to big, one stalker needs space like 4 marines means you have not enough surface area if the mutaball hits you even if you have the same amount of stalkers as your opponent have mutas.
Air units have no collision so most of your stalkers are useless when you fight big muta numbers.

stalkers aren't exactly bad against muta's, if you have +2 attack blink stalkers out and try to evenly number the amount of muta's you will be able to win in a lot of cases.

Stalkers are OK - but microing with muta's is a little to easy ;)

Thats a simplification.

Mutas are the agressor, they chose when and where to engage, not the protoss in this case. So unless you have superb map vision and awareness, you need to split your stalkers up to save your workers with any efficiency.

This was never a cost for cost battle, nobody except erdem complains about stalkers vs mutas in a straight up battle.

The problem is that even a huge blink right in under a flock of mutas often times doesnt even kill a single one. It takes 10 stalkers with +3 weapons to one shoot a muta. It is not enough to ever actually kill the mutas, all you can do is buy time for units like archons and storm to come out.

I think that the stalker is a bit of a wonky unit. Who wants a mobile unit with low damage output and high health? All other units that are fast and "harassy" are the opposite.

If Toss finds a moment to push though, Mutas become inefficient and Zerg can actually only baserace. If you gather forces Mutas won't be a match and suddenly Toss chooses where to fight. So I guess a Toss feels weak when Mutas harass him, but so does a Zerg, if his harassment isn't efficient enough or Toss decides to do a strong push.

And how does a base race scenario usually end?

There are zergs out there who play entirely for the purpose of base racing. With speedlings, mutas and way more map control, the zerg is already in favour to do the base trade.

Again, the reason protoss dont do too well in this scenario is because stalkers are pretty bad. Their output just isnt good against speedling/spine defense. You want zealots and immortals to break that kind of defense, possibly even colossus. However, the more of those units you make, the more effective the mutas will be at directly engaging your army.

archons.

OK, I'll admit, stalkers aren't bad against muta, not in a straight up fight, but that's never the case against muta.

You'll never see 20 mutas engage 20 stalkers straight on. But you'll see 20 muta wipe out 10 stalkers quickly. The clayworm adds secondary damage to the stalkers, so they'll melt fast.

And while mutas can evade stalkers, stalkers cannot evade mutas. I've tried to blink-run-blink-run away from muta but they keep up too easily.

Once the stalker numbers are dwindled down, the rest of the protoss army is easy piecey... colossus, immortals, zealots... too bad they can't defend against air :) and you'll usually never have more than a handful of sentries.

You're pretty much forced to get stargate(s) and pump out phoenixes to be able to combat for air supremacy, and then fleet beacon, and then the range upgrade. Probably 3-4 minutes worth of effort, not to mention all the resources spent on this tech path.. just to get 1 phoenix out with range :)
So, excuse me while I whine about stalkers being bad against muta. I don't want them to _barely_ win in a straight up fight, I want them to kill a muta easily.

Archons are a joke, sure if muta ball flies straight over an archon then it's worth it, but archons are not very mobile and have very short range.

While the range upgrade for phoenix is a good addition, and gj blizzard, it still doesn't help protoss against muta when they don't have stargates. Just compare the muta problem for protoss and for terran. Terrans with marines and repairable turrets keep them away so easily. Cannons cannot be repaired and zealots can't charge upward.