preface: havn't written a guide before, open for input on writing the guide more clearly
I'm a master T player and i wanted to help out the community with TvP, as it's a rather large issue for most T players below master. TvP and this BO is very very legit and deadly.
(supplycount discountiued from here, get things as fast as you can without cutting production)
bunker (could be built on the low ground, makes getting an expo up easier - or high ground, which is safer against 4gate/pressure)
At this point you cut marines if you've seen an expo - or you continue if you havnt.
starport and techlab on the factory (for banshee).
reactor on barracks
tech lab on factory
2gas immediatly on natural
So this puts you on 2 bases with the following infrastructure:
1rax with reactor
1factory with techlab
1starport with tech lab.
1armory, making plating lvl 1 and 2, then attack (if toss responds HT crazy, get ship plating and transition BC, more on that later.
In most cases, protoss will at this point ponder why you havnt bombarded them with a 1/1/1 yet, as they've seen the banshees, probably seen you take gas and building a bunker on the high ground. Obs spawns with normal 1gate expo into 3gate robo timings right around when your raven pops, if you can manage to hide the armory- try to position the ravens and marines in that manner.
Your push comes as you get +1 armor and 3thors and 3 banshee's. You have a handful of marines at this point which serve as fodder and anti-air. Pull ~6-8 scv's with the push and set to auto-repair.
The strength of this push is the synergy between these units. Get a PDD down as you engage, scan and targetfire observer with thors, then let the banshee/thor dps (which is rediculous) clean it up.
If he goes very HT heavy with zelaots, this push won't kill toss, it will infact get so overrun you'll lose the game. Instead, sit back -take a third (you should start floating the moment you move out, this is when you add on the following infrastructure)
Then we're rocking 2factories and 2 starports with techlabs on 2 bases going on 3.
Keep amassing thors and banshee(constant production here lads) and if it goes past 15minutes, transition to BC's.
If anyone has any questions as to the BO, ill be glad to answer and ill try to keep up with the topic.
This replay is pretty close to the optimal, second gas is slightly late and im a little bit gas light because i inadvertedly pulled an scv out of gas when i moved out. 3rd is a little late
The better your multitasking is, the more active you can be with banshee's.
Good luck with the build guys, finally here's the replay:
What beats it from my experience:
1. One base 3 gate robo push at 8 minutes, observer on ramp.
2. Mass air: carriers, void rays, mothership.
BTW: It is called Hammer's push after its inventor, Hammer from US server.
What I see from your post is that you use a lighter version, which also strikes earlier with less units, though. I don't know how will the things I listed work against it, or if there would be some new way to beat it as Protoss.
But the composition is the same, only timings differ.
Edited by Strajder on 30/04/2012 17:59 BST
@Strajder thanks for pointing that out, i was trying to post this guide/build because there is a growing trend in TvP frustrion amongst the lower leagued players (although it doesnt really stop in master:p)
I actually saw the build first from NadA in gsl season 1 2012.
Hopefully it can be of some use to people who havnt seen this before, as it is a very powerful and more importantly micro-unintensive unit compo.
I didnt go through how to respond to what you're scouting, as this is a bit more advanced and would make OP far too long, but i am willing to answer questions about the build order and MU in general.
U say transition into BC's but wont feedback/storm just kill them all?. Not seen replay yet but from my low lvl expirence T3 units seem ineffective past the 13/15 min mark as the majority of toss start massing up Ht. Early game i suppose it could be good, will have a look at replay at try it later when i have time =).
Well Hammer's push still works very well against most common protoss builds below diamond. Or, as Aerohank pointed out, against protosses who "do their thing" instead of adapt.
On paper, it does, but in reality the unit composition just smashes through it - it's kinda incredible. The thors make quick werk of stalkers and that leaves the air to clean up (usually toss will make so many zealots the thors won't survive the fights) Pre cloaking the banshees 3-4 times to ditch energy is nice and then there's really only storm to worry about, and when you spread decently that isn't even much of an issue. This isn't a completely new way to play TvP which will forever obsolete bio but it's an alternative with it's own strengths and weaknesses, like bio.
I havnt ran into anyone responding with mass air/voidrays but i dont think it would be terribly effiecent untill it's really MASS air, at this point you'll have some issues as critical mass carriers will kill any army you can produce off of this infrastructure (though yamatos do kill carriers in 2shots (150 overkill) and 5-6 thors splashing voids isn't to be messed with. Most people will however try to go for the stalker approach, and the thor/pdd combination murders it.
Edited by Mantraz on 04/05/2012 21:55 BST
Yes confirmed, this seems to work well.
This indeed deceives your opponent into the robo build (both with cloak banshee + suspection of 1-1-1 one base all in). That's why HT's will be quite rare unless the scout Thor.
For you lower league people, I really doubt anyone will make fast HTs, so this build should be quite effective.
Thanks for this build, it perhaps restored my hope about TvP:)
I've recently tried it vs top gold zerg who offraced as P. From the early game, he constantly and relentlessly attacked with gateway units, forcing me to constantly pull SCVs and completely throwing me off. When I tried to push it failed, and that game was the last 1v1 (custom) I played in days. I ragequitted.
Hammer's push simply relies on your protoss opponent sitting in his base until 13 minute mark.
About air play, in that other game at 13 minute mark my protoss opponent had several carriers and void rays, enough to defend my push and from that point on that game just went downwards for me.
Edited by Strajder on 05/05/2012 14:31 BST
So yeah, many protoss don't realise the undiscovered potential of their race when not sitting on their behinds in their base the whole game and actually using their units outside of the deathball, in the early game.
Currently I don't have an answer to early game Protoss aggression. Saying "bunkers" doesn't solve the problem if I have to constantly pull my SCVs, losing them in the process, spending minerals for repairs and having to rebuild lost buildings and units.
What they say about TvP, that Terran has the advantage in the early game, and Protoss has the advantage in the mid and late game, is simply not true - Protoss has the advantage the whole game long, from early to late game, it is simply a dominating race.
Edited by Strajder on 05/05/2012 14:48 BST
@Strajder i didnt include this in the guide as it is meant for players who have severe issues with TvP and is desperate for a "solution".
If you scout any protoss 1base play (even a 3gate expo) you should take the appropriate precautions doing the build - up untill the cloak banshee is done you'll be EXACTLY as volnourable to protoss as you would with a 1-1-1, because it is literally the same build up untill you expo rather than barracks x2.
I didn't delve into how to scout this, because stuff like skipping a mule for a scan is neccesary if your opponent isn't doing a 1gate expo/nex first/20nex.
If i scout an all in coming you do seriously need to bunker up and that is the appropriate response, but now continuing to tech to thors is a little ambitious for holding an all in, and depending on what's coming you need to get the units out to deal with it, which isn't thors. (Thors deal with most all-ins just fine though, problem is a 50% complete thor doesnt, and they won't be out in time...)
Against hardcore airplay make sure you're consitantly producing marines and consider getting them combatshield. Vikings and thors with scv's on repair will deal with it decently. 9 thors 1 shot voidrays, just a number to aim for ~.
Edited by Mantraz on 08/05/2012 21:06 BST
Good guide man, a friend of mine does it all the time and seems to be working even in top master however he is thinking of replacing thors with tanks...to target fire the templar...
that ofcourse leaves the option to get overrun by zealots...
but good effort in putting this 2gether im sure people will be satisfied once they get the hang of it. Very solid and needed strategy for terran versus protoss at the moment...
Edited by Razbu on 09/05/2012 10:02 BST
Anyone else trying mass hellions instead of marines with this build? That makes it hellion/thor/banshee.
Hellions are a bit of a revelation once you have a lot of them. They are a lot better against things like immortals and stalkers than I had thought they would be.
Standard unit composition:
TvZ - Tanks, Marines, Medivacs and Vikings... some thors. (OR mech only with no upgrades for marines).
TvP - Marines, Marauders, Medivacs with Ghosts and Vikings.
TvT - Marines, Tanks, Medivac/Vikings OR Mech (Factory only units with no upgrade for marines).
In my experience of roughly 140 online games I would say that anything other than the above unit compositions is unusual and not generally seen in custom or ladder games.
I am quite discouraged from going factory/starport only in TvP due to immortals... they simply hard counter high hp high damage high cost armored units - I find bio is better even late game against most army compositions. However, I still have doubts what is better TvP/TvZ... Marines/Tanks or Factory only tech with Vikings for the Zerg/Terran flyers? Interested to know what experienced Master League players know thx.
Edited by Anarki on 21/05/2012 23:10 BST
I felt that too, but it's worth noting that hellions do very well against immortals. An immortal does only slightly more damage to a hellion than a zealot (immortal 13.8dps, zealot 13.3dps).
Also stalkers don't get their +5 bonus damage against hellions either.
There's a good thread on Teamliquid about mech TvP
Against heavy immortal responses, getting strike cannons is a good answer, kills immortals and stuns them for the duration - whats not to like?
Yeah its similar to a 111, but the difference is that the main core of a 111 is the marines, while this push/build has its core in the tech units, with marines as support. Marines in the 111 allin is the trouble, which is why toss tries to respond by getting colossus. Thors murder stalkers which leaves very little AA for toss against banshees with a PDD up. if anything, the builds main weakness isn't straight up combat ability, its amazing at this - its mobility and being picked apart from several angles at once (thors are really slow, in lategame battlecruisers are really slow...)
Anyone else trying mass hellions instead of marines with this build? That makes it hellion/thor/banshee.
Marines with this style serves the purpose of AA untill thors cut it, and their DPS secondly. What hellions bring to the table is a lot better in conjuction with siegetanks, and now you're going mech vs protoss, not thor/banshee. They're seperate and they work differently.
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