Topic
Reaper upgrade back after the queen buff !
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Edited by Kenshin on 12/06/12 03:11 (BST)
I think That Terran is suffering against Zerg as I mentioned in my other thread ! in the opinion of select and DRG TL interview that said no matter how well your opponent is playing he feels like if he plays without making a mistake he will win and the queen buff was so huge !
So what I want to say is after that range 5 on queens reaper wont be as effective as before the upgrade required factory ! Now the queen has a good chance to stop the harassment so why not make the upgrade require a rax again ! I think Reapers will help the Terran to be able to harass the Zerg more ,force units here and there and still be balanced ! more importantly reapers aren't added to the ball of Death ! but they can harass and scout ! This change can bring back the early micro to the match up which I think will make it more exciting both for Zerg and Terran ! Your opinion people ! |
There is no way that anything DRG (or any other randomly picked pro) says can be wrong or biased. Pros are never wrong and they never disagree with each other, we all know that. Perhaps the Reaper upgrade should be changed in some way. Perhaps we shouldn't theorycraft on the forum so much. |
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Mmmm ... reaper speed without upgrade plz ;) :p
But seraisously, i also think there is something in that post so here is my: + for the suggestion. These days most zergs know how to prevent bunkers from raising up, so that reaper in a bunker shouldn't be that much of a threat any more. Decreasing back reaper build time would be nice so we don't have to wait this ridicilous long time as it is now. Maybe it would even see more reapers in later game. |
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I agree, early game is so boring these days. reapers has a lot of potential too :D
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ProGamers opinions are not a given fact but they are more valuable than any other ! Also , They should be taker into serious consideration ! Maybe apply it maybe not it depends on what the balance team thinks ! But Pro feedback is a great source to balance changes ! it can be bias but you look at the reasoning and who said it ! it feel more true when it comes from the zerg Champion ! |
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Edited by Spirit on 12/06/12 12:43 (BST)
Ok, well I've seriously considered his opinion and I've reached the conclusion that it makes !@#$ all difference since neither himself, yourself or myself are members of the balance team. I also don't see why I should pay special attention to what any pro says just because he is a pro. I mean, have you listened to the sorts of things footballers say in post match interviews? Half of them talk utter crap, many, when asked to explain how they won, say things like "well, we just went out there and scored goals". Really? That simple huh? These are pros who clearly lack the understanding of how they are able to be the best or lack the ability to convey that to others. So DRG can be an excellent player, but when asked to discuss balance he can talk as much rubbish as the next guy. And what possible value can there be in us debating it? Especially since, as I pointed out, other pros will say the opposite to him. |
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Edited by GosuGhost on 12/06/12 13:07 (BST)
Your opinion people David Kim already said that they value pro gamers opinions a lot. Also there is a difference when you hear pros like Idra say something of other races is op, and when #1 zerg says his own race is too strong/the matchup is too easy. |
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Edited by Kenshin on 12/06/12 13:32 (BST)
ProGamers opinions are not a given fact but they are more valuable than any other ! Also , They should be taker into serious consideration ! Maybe apply it maybe not it depends on what the balance team thinks ! But Pro feedback is a great source to balance changes ! it can be bias but you look at the reasoning and who said it ! it feel more true when it comes from the zerg Champion ! 1- are you a zerg player ? 2- Your whole comment if based on a comparaison that doesnt make any sense ! is there is balance in football ? lol ! you cant compare eating choclate to playing basket ball ! soccers team playing is like a mirror match up you really can't complain about balance also these are video games that are fictional with number that's created by the balance team ! So its not even a mirror match up in soccer ! its just a wrong comparison ! 3- Watch David Kim and Dustin Browder 1 hour talk about balance in blizzcon you will see how they respect pro gamers feedback ! Dustin Browder said that they took day9 feedback the day before ! They both also mentioned how they like blizzcon and take feedback from the crowed ! 4- Why do they value Progaming opinions ? is a simple question ! its better than any other feedback ! they also understand the game much more Even more than the balance team or else they wont be pro at it ! As an example Flash once said that's he understood the whole BW game and that makes him what he was in BW and that's according to Artosis on the kespa tournament ! 5- While the Balance team is very intelligent and good but they are not high level and not God they don't understand every aspect of the game they follow balance sources like progamers opinions and compare it the data check out replays etc ! |
Doesn't make DRG's statement accurate. Also Blizzard's views are normally similar to a poll of pros, i.e. if many say something it has weight, a single opinion on its own is like a single data point. Doesn't tell you much. Also there is a difference when you hear pros like Idra say something of other races is op, No reason to conclude that at all. Your opinion over who's opinion is more accurate is just an opinion. you see the problem here? Lots of opinion, no facts. |
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Edited by nooby on 12/06/12 14:42 (BST)
This is false assumption. I have looked at pro-gamers and some interviews. Most of them are still kids! How old is marine king? Stefano is 17?. I don't know other guys, but many of them look quite young indeed. I have seen interview with Thorzain from latest mlg; jesus that guy is one big unserious kid. Nothing bad with that though; but do you really think they have clear understanding and ability to understand all nyances or that they even care? Or do you think they are actually rather young and can sitt and practice more and can execute things faster than someoneo who might understand the game more but has no longer mechanics or time to get that perfect micro execution. Young kids are often amazing on how complicated and fast musical pieces they can execute. Just watch on youtube, some 6 - 8 years old kids perform technical pieces that professional musicians sometimes struggle with. But kids as a rule lack the understanding of the music they execute. They usually lack the subtle frasing and emotions when they play. The point is, just bc they have mechanics to execute a piece does not make them understand all the subtleties of the piece. Similar can be said in case of sc2; not equivalent, but in some degree. It might be that most of the pro gamers have given time, and are young enough to execute mechanics really well. It does not necessarily imply they have THE best understanding of all units strats and so on. Don't get me wrong; I don't say they don't understand the game or something; I am saying they might have execution skills at higher level bc of their age and time they can put into the game. I don't say it is a rule neither, but it can be a factor in some cases. I also mean that somebody who is not a pro does not necessarily lack understanding of the game; something that very often is ignored on battle.net due to blizzards statements how much they value pro-gamers. |
Well there is a difference, because whenever Idra complains he never rationally thinks about it, whilst a player like DRG, in an INTERVIEW, fully concentrated and with no emotions in play will be able to give a far more accurate and detailed description of balance than an emotional player like Idra, who hardly even has the same criteria regarding DRG and the game. So in short, although both players opinions do hold some merit, DRG's opinion should and probably does hold a much higher merit and consideration. |
No. I play random. 1 click on my profile could have told you that.
Your whole comment is filled with ! marks where there should be full stops.
You either did not read my comment or you did not understand it. I did not compare SC2 balance to football "balance". I used pro football players as an example of how some people with incredible skill can have little understanding of exactly what makes them the best, or can struggle to explain it to others.
And they use their own opinions, and (crucially) they use DATA. So why do you choose to focus on the opinion of one individual to draw your conclusions then? Don't try to claim you are doing what Blizzard are doing.
I suppose this is true in the same way that a racing car designer understands mechanical engineering better than a professor who teaches it.
So now you are using an individuals opinion of his own ability to understand. Have you heard of circular reasoning?
Primarily they use statistics as they have said. You have no stats, you have a single data point. They also say they listen to pros, and they listen to the community. It is clear, as I've demonstrated, that while pros have a place to play they are not the be all end all of understanding of game design. In many cases they may have significantly less understanding. Skill =/= intelligence you know. Where does any of this fit into you taking a single pro opinion because it matches what you think and using it to back up your opinion? You asked us to discuss and I did. I do not consider an isolated DRG comment to be significant. Now, all that said, I have to wonder what weight the balance team really put on pro or community opinions. While I'm sure they consider them as they say I suspect the stats have a much much greater influence on their actions and that the primary purpose of considering pro and community opinions might well be a public relations exercise. Don't take this last comment out of context. |
Well there is a difference, because whenever Idra complains he never rationally thinks about it, whilst a player like DRG, in an INTERVIEW, fully concentrated and with no emotions in play will be able to give a far more accurate and detailed description of balance than an emotional player like Idra, who hardly even has the same criteria regarding DRG and the game. Yes yes, I am aware of Idra's history. That was just an example he made when he failed to understand my point. It had nothing to do with who is less biased, Idra or DRG. My point was that saying "pro player X says Y" does not make it so. Saying "respected pro player X says Y" also does not make it so! I thought the point was well made, clearly I was wrong. |
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It's not like terrans desperately needs more ways to harass. You'll get the heal upgrade, and be happy with that.
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What does this have to do with reapers being under used, or their original nerf now being superfluous? |
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Edited by Kenshin on 12/06/12 21:26 (BST)
LOL Spirit I Think I am wasting time here !
First of all , I asked if your zerg because this could be an alternative account ! i have more than one and I think many do ! You keep comparing things to others when its only silly compairaisons that you created ! While pro gamers opinions as I said are not given facts they are more important than any other opinion and thier understanding of the game is what makes it huge ! You say that its a lot of opinions are not facts but its not only an opinion the prove to their criticism is that they play well ! Comparing soccer players to Progamers opinion is again silly because RTS games have lots of reasoning ! Starcraft in Day9 defention is resources management in another Documentary Definition is Chess At War-speed ! It requires a lot of reasoning alongside with macro and micro ! Why do I differ between Idra and DRG Opinion because its a given fact that idra can not control his emotions and rage quits a lot when he leave and lots of times accusethe other races of being OP ! He also changes his opinion with time and we didn't not see a continuation of his imbalance show with artosis ! It doesn't take a wise man to see that he get too emotinal after games and say things that he might have later on regret ! If you Watched the Balance talk you will hear that its one of the main sources of balance changes ( pro opinion ) ! No. I play random. 1 click on my profile could have told you that. these comments show how you dont not really have points but rather wish to prove me wrong :D Also Comparing RTS Players understanding of the game to how engineers understand mechanical car thing more than the racers or whatever that was is again silly LOL A pro gamer has to make Decisions all games to win this Rts game but a racer he shouldn't really know that much about the mechanics of the car lol ! I Think That DRG decision making while playing is much better than any member of the balance team ! do you agree ? While a Progamer opinion is not Too significant the more progamers agree the more its probably true ! Also Progamers do not really make balance lol but they can help the Balance team to identify the problem and that is the hard part ! but the balance team can certainly check it out with the stats ! and I mentioned stat in my previous comment by saying Data BTW! As final thing I am not Doing what Blizzard Does by balancing the game But I do have the right to suggest and feedback on the game and point out progamers opinon just so Blizzard can check how true it is ! IF THAT IS FORBIDDEN IN THE FORUMS I WOULD APPRECIATE IT IF YOU TELL ME ;) |
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No please dont. I just started playing zerg and is following this guide that tells you to get 1 spine, 4 queens and drone like a madman. Works like a charm and I would hate it if it was taken away and I actually had to do other stuff than inject, press 4svdddddddddddd, morph a couple of buildings and pop a tumor or two before the 8 minute mark.
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Now TvZ looks like:
option 1: Both players don't all in. -Zerg can creep up to 10 minute, Terran cant push out before 10 minute because marines melt without medivacs. - Terran can't do damage in 10-15 minutes because creep is everywhere and ling infesot is really strong and without good position its super hard to beat this composition. So terran must slowly turtle into zerg base or drop. - 15 minutes ++ Zerg make broodlord corruptor infestor. A move. Win. GG. WP option 2 :Terran all ins. - Hopes zergs have not brain and cannot use ovelord - Hopes zerg overdrone because pure lings can hold 70% terran all ins. |
