Edited by Kapeselus on 22/06/12 14:58 (BST)
Dear Blizzard. I posted this last season aswell and I think its time to post it again since you apperently havent listened or cared about any of the players that enjoys team games more than 1v1.
What will it take to get your attention to the current state of Team Ladder. Most maps are really crap and rush friendly. And don't talk crap about your thinking about it, 1-2 seasons without new maps maybe I could take if you really did something but over 1 year and 6 seasons without a single new map is just plain stupid and very disrespectful towards your customers that buys and support your games.
Aren't the players who play Team Ladder also paying customers that deserves respect, support and change. Still going into this 8th season we will have played with the same map pool since start of season 3 thats a stunning 6 seasons after season number 8.
I'm not talking about balancing the game around Team Ladder here, I'm just talking about getting any sign that you care what so ever about the players who enjoys team maps.
Would it be so hard to add and replace maps in the Team Ladder aswell as the 1v1 ladder, while your working hard with mixing up the 1v1 ladder the players in Team Ladder has been neglected and stuck with the same bad maps for 6 seasons.
Most of us that plays Team Ladder games acutally support and help this game grow aswell, I for one follow many of the major tournaments and I love watching good games. I would just wish I saw some sign of will from Blizzard to mix things up for others than just the 1v1 players aswell.
I'm just gonna go over the 3v3 maps, to give you my point of view. And my friends and quite a few others I've talked to share my opinions about the maps.
Bad map, your choice as Zerg is expand a mile from your base or take down the rocks before expanding. Whats even worse is once you take the top expansion your team mates need to expand, else the other base will be covered in creep. This has been the case since the start without even been updated and fixed.
One of the better maps in the pool, quite fun to play. Wouldnt mind some more expansions on it though.
What can I say, big fat ramp. Very short rush distance a map which benefits cheese alot.
The 2 sides also got their first expansion in bad position very easy to harash stright from the front of the other team.
Zerg haven, this map screams come and 6 pool me and win. Could have been a decent map without the double ramps and some change in the layout.
Rush distance on it is decent at least, but the double ramps destroys the day and fun of it. Plenty of expansions is a plus on it.
Togheter with Cinder Fortress this is a map I acutally enjoy playing however the rush distance feels abit short, wouldnt hurt to have abit longer.
"Temple Of The Preservers"
Map layout is decent however way to few expansions, and once again benefits from a cheese style of play.
Me and my Friends plays TTP atm in 3v3 and it really feels like this map favours us a big deal cause of the Terrans. To easy sometimes with tanks on it.
"The Bio Lab"
Another bad map with poor rush distance and the expansions are acutally like 5 seconds from each other. Its also one mile from main to natural so annoying to fend of cheese.
What can I say, this might be the worst map ever made. 5 second rush distance, top and bottom acutally got longer distance to travel to each other than the mirrored enemy.
And once again no expansions, you get 1 expansions than the only thing after that is 2 gold you need to fight over.
Overall conlusion is the maps overall lack expansions, most of them are too cheese friendly with short rush distances. And in many cases its to far between main and expansion, should be shorter like on Bio Lab takes an hour to run into your main.
Whats worse is we been stuck with this for 6 seasons without any change or indication that Blizzard is acutally paying attention to anything but 1v1. And this season you added something to 2v2.
By just adding more expansions increasing rush distance you could acutally get more macro games in the Team Ladder, I don't mind smaller maps either to mix things up but I do want more good big maps that favours macro over cheese.
And if you wanna make some smaller maps with short rush distance you need to make it so its small choked ramps not big once, its impossible to defend double/triple 6 pools with 1 mile ramps. It can even be hard with a small ramp.
I havent played 2v2 that much 4v4 got some of the same problems as 3v3 however, just scrolling through the 2v2 maps they look abit better but still all 3 Team Ladder deserves some love, we start to feel left out.
Thanks for listening and I hope you take this as a friendly suggestion on how to improve the game for alot of us out here.
My question to Blizzard would be why not farm out map design and effectively get some free assistance from the community?
They could have competitions each season for map design with, say, the two best community designed 4v4 or 3v3 maps placed into the map pool for the next season. We could then try them and if we don't like veto them.
Given that they are busy with other matters I think this is the best way to get things moving. It has the added benefit of involving the community and of accessing a lot more man power. I could easily see there being 10-20 amateur maps of good quality competing for a position in the map pool, as opposed to the 1 or 2 new Blizz maps every 6 months that we get at the moment.
3v3 and 4v4 is an absolute joke.
Every single 4v4 is a cheesefest. Last time I played 4v4, we got cannon rushed, 4 gated and one of the opponents went for mass void rays.
Blizzard are right to concentrate on 1v1(which is actually important for e-sports)
3v3 and 4v4 is an absolute joke.
Part of the reason (but only part) why 4v4 is a complete cheesefest is the map pool, change that, and you might change the way 3v3s and 4v4s are played out.
Edited by Dragoon on 12/06/12 19:35 (BST)
Easy to say that when your playing mainly 1v1 yourself, however put yourself in other peoples shoes for a change and think about someone else than yourself.
Imagine not getting anything for the thing you prefer for over a year how would you feel at the same time as Blizzard clearly works on the game realesing new content for the game itself not just the ladder you prefer.
If you ask me if Blizzard is gonna keep all 4 ladders they should at least add at least 1 new map every season and change things up abit in all 4 ladder pools.
Might add that viewers is important for E-sports aswell and guess what alot of the gamers that prefer team ladder over 1v1 is acutally big fans and follows the E-sport.
+1 for good post.
Why not use some of the community maps out there (if any) for 3v3 and 4v4? Just add them to the map pool and remove the ones that people veto. Zero effort required.
About the lack of expansions - remember that in a 1v1 game when each player takes their natural its 2 base vs 2 base play. But that is the fact in a 2v2 game RIGHT FROM THE START. If there are two "easy" expos for each team it get to 4 base vs 4 base play too fast - thus making it more random and less fun to play. In a X vs X team map there should be 1 less "free" expo than there are players. Maybe just two for 4v4.
3v3 and 4v4 is an absolute joke.
Helpful content .................................0%
Comprehension of topic.....................0%
Reason for post: hate and disdain for team games, or possible noob rage at inability to win them.
Recommendation: If you have nothing nice to say, post elsewhere.
So after 1 year of neglect from Blizzard towards players who enjoy 3v3 and 4v4 I finally got a responds, not the one that I was hoping for but I was acutally banned for a week for bad language.
Of course without anyone bothering to update us what so ever if they plan or even care about the other ladders than 1v1.
So neglecting, ignoring a big player base for over a year without anything is okey but to use one bad word is bad manners thanks for clearing things up for us Blizzard. But I dont care I would gladly take a 1 week ban if it meant you acutally opened your eyes to your other fans than just the once enjoying 1v1.
Totally agree with this one there are so many ways for them to mix things up which doesnt mean a whole lot of work for them, but they seem to prefer to just ignore and neglect instead.
Edited by Kapeselus on 22/06/12 15:59 (BST)
I don't think many of you will accept this explanation—as it doesn't solve much for you—but I do want to reply to this.
We definitely acknowledge the 3v3 and 4v4 playing communities and are aware of the concerns with the map pools (in the end we've also played on the same maps alongside you for a long time now). We've not forgotten about the 3v3 and 4v4 players and would like to revisit those modes as well. However, when we compare different communities and the amount of feedback we get on different matters across several community sites, we've had little feedback on this specific topic to work with so far.
The process of designing maps, making them, quality assurance, etc. is not as simple and quick, as you make it out to be. It does take time and resources, pulling people from other things they could be doing. And there has been a lot on the plate in the past months. We've had an expansion in the works (and are still putting finishing touches on it; it's coming guys!) and other important matters to consider and/or address (like some of the ones that you mentioned). Unfortunately, prioritizing applies to us as much as it does to everyone else in all areas.
We've also looked into (and are always) the possibility of assimilating some player-made maps, like we did for 1v1. Unfortunately, on that side it also holds true that mapmakers for the most part choose to make 1v1 maps (and rarely 2v2 maps), but not 3v3 and 4v4 maps. We've seen very few community creations for these modes, which again makes it hard to address the variety at this time. This especially applies to maps that could be suitable and would not require a lot of work on our side to make them acceptable for ladder play.
Though we can't commit to anything at this time, if you want changes to the 3v3 and 4v4 map pools, speak up! Posts like this one show us how much you care and want them and we need more of these (without inappropriate language though, please :)).
Edited by Dragoon on 22/06/12 21:48 (BST)
First of all thanks for a responds thats something I waited for a long time for. Its nice to see someone take their time to respond to this thread and this subject.
Ye, when it comes to mapmaking I know most players is focused on 1v1 aswell.
And I do realize its abit more work than it might seem, all though 6 seasons without a new map feels abit to much. Just some effort in creating one map to give us something new would be beneficial for the community and for Blizzard aswell.
This post is the first time in over a year though I've seen anyone comment on this subject at all, not seeing any responds at all makes you abit mad.
Wouldnt it be possible to set up a map making contest for team games and the 2-3 winners gets their maps in the next seasons pool, would be a great way of getting people willing to sit down and try to do some maps.
I bet there is quite a few map makers that would be happy to do it if there was some kind of reward for doing it :D
Being a person working in the IT, I understand how unpleasant it is to respond with a "Soon(TM)" message to a thread of demand, so thanks for stepping in and responding, it's sure better than no response ;)
Contest for 3v3/4v4 maps sounds like a good idea. I remember there were mapmaking contests for Warcraft III; I'm sure there's a lot of people who can send something creative
Thanks for the answer!
My idea (as posted above) was to run a competition or some other incentive and ask players to make maps. I'm sure if people saw there was a need and that 3v3 and 4v4 maps are needed but in short supply there would be those who would step up.
Since we can veto maps I think it would make sense to add in 1-2 community maps each season for people to try and then give feedback on. In the end, it can't really be worse than at the moment where there has been nothing new for ages in in some cases maps only have a main and a natural for each player, not even a third. It just leaves rushing the only option.
That's right, especially for Zerg, for whom a third is vital, but who sometimes see themselves in a spot, where there isn't even a third to take, except for maybe two contested gold expansions which won't really get through if your opponents aren't sleeping.
Overall I think talking this through with your staff and creating a contest could be a nice idea. I fully understand the ressource problems, so why not taking some community enthusiasts to get the load of your shoulders? :)
I'm sorry but me, and many others have pointed out the huge problems in the 3v3 and 4v4 map pools. I think it is good enough to get our feedback for granted.
Most people playing 3v3/4v4 won't even know what a forum is, so waiting for feedback on the matter is kinda foolish.
Dragoon and others made it quite clearly what needs to change in the maps, and i don't really think that adding more expansions requires so much thought that it becomes impossible to implement. And in my opinion, the expansions are the root of all the troubles...