Terran broken. facts and quotes, more to come
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It allways makes me wonder how terrans can complain about the very endgame.
Beside the fact that your army should be about 20-30 suply bigger then your opponents due to mules there a few simple things to note: Vs Toss: No Toss composition can deal with the right ghost maurador medivac viking mix. Theres a unit test map try it out: 40% ghost 60% mauras 16 vikings around 12 medivacs. Why do terrans loose vs toss armys then: The emp`s dont hit or the vikings are out of postion or u dont have the right composition. If the toss gets a single storm off u did something very very wrong. Wondering why toss reinforces faster? Couse most terrans play with 12 rax vs 25 gates. Vs Zerg I allways wonder why pro players dont add in a few ghost to emp the infestors. Without Fungal Vikings make short work of both Corupters and Broods as long as u have some marines to fall back to. And have u ever heard about Ravens? Strongest splash dmg in the game. Of couse its hard to get there as a terran but most players dont even try it. It is no wonder when u loose with a midgame 2000 gas army vs a 5000 gas ultra late game army. I do see some weaknesses in the tvz midgame for terrans but as people said we are still in the adjusting phase after the patch. In addition i do aggree that Terran Endgame recuires more mikro then toss or z, but if u do it right terran still has the best "strongest possible army composition" |
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I can't help but suspect TvZ problems would be solved if Ghost's snipe did 40 to 50 damage to all units, except massive units which got dealt 20 - 25 damage. We'd have a valid solution again to gglords, individual infestors, and even some sick baneling snipes if the APM is high enough.
Of course, this may prove too much for chargelot-based armies, but emp would surely be more of the concern there, right? |
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Because terran has the highest skill cap which can be exploited by top terran pro's the race will become the weakest, so it is balanced. which is gay, uber gay,
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This hardly ever happens because orbitals are costly, the Terran is usally dead before this becomes a possibility.
Sounds cheap, so this is the fabled late/late game where you have already survived the unkillable deathball a couple of times
Stupid pro players, how do they let the toss cast storms. Its not like they click a button and choose a target it is, obviously they deserve to lose if they let opposing units actually cast there spells.
And yet at the end of the game the Terran has still spent more money on buildings than the toss.
They used to, ghost is nerfed next to useless.
Strongest? you mean most expensive, and most energy and most luck based on one of the weakest slowest easy to kill units in the game. The single target takes 100, but the splash gets diminishing returns after the first target. Storm is much better and cheaper and does a lot more damage and when the caster is out of mana they become a super unit. Raven with no energy is a floating dustbin with bullseye on it. Go play Terran and attempt the things you say and tell us what happens, perhaps by the time you are back in bronze league this will start working for you. |
It allways makes me wonder how terrans can complain about the very endgame. You bring up some very nice points there, but it is just not that simple. If you just compare army sizes and costs you neglect that terran in general has to invest more into buildings to build an equally sized army at a certain point in the game. That is especially true compared to zerg. To your points about TvP: To build up that orbital economy you need to invest a lot of recourses into that. The army you listed is by far the most expensive !@#$ you can build. 20 ghosts +30 maras + 16 vikings + 12 medivacs= 20*200+30*100+16*150+12*100= 10600 minerals 20*100+30*25+16*75+12*100=5150 minearals +That army has 156 supply! Thats 68 min/supply and 33 gas/supply. Thats more expensive then a colossus per supply (50/33)! And thats a lot of supply. Broodlord infestor is cheap compared to that. You can't even build a sensible toss army that comes near to that cost. on top of the ultra expensive army terran should also invest into a lot of production. Well, barracks are more expensive and require more place then gateways and take longer to build. On top of that units spawn spread out and warpgate always gives the toss an one or even two (travel time) production cycle advantage. There are some terran players that play like that on certain maps after certain mid game situations. Empire Happy plays like this on very big maps were you can defend nice. It is a nice style. But even when you reach that stage of 20 rax mass planetary mass ghost mara viking medivac you can still lose quite easy. You reach that stage at a point in the game when most bases are close to mined out. Toss has far more liquid minerals and gas and can also start to sack workers. Toss has far less recources spent in buildings at such a point in the game. Even with that ultimate terran bio deathball you can not really attack into a toss army with cannons for detection. I would not even say that terran is favored in this situation. And to reach that point of the game you first have to survive the stage of the game were toss has both splash options and 10+ gates aka the usual normal late game. In that stage toss is favored according to nearly everybody especially if terran plays a defensive midgame. And to TvZ: Some pro players start to use some ghost on big maps where you can split the map. The main use it to nuke. EMPs on infestors are really hard to do. Sniping is often the better more energy efficient alternative and Broodlords are very good at protecting infestors. And you can not kill zergs detection. There are spores, overseers and fungal. You also have to understand that even top korean have limits in how many units they can control at once. Yes a few ghost could maybe be useful in some situations, but currently most pro terrans do not think that they reward the necessary attention and resources enough to justify the invest. Ravens are similar. Both ravens and ghosts are a big invests and they are both "hit or miss". Both kind of rely on zerg making big mistakes. Both execution of attack and defend of this units are not really developed yet. Only a few terrans use them and only in very few games. Zergs have no experience with dealing with them. After playing around in the unit tester with a friend we kind of came to the conclusion that both ghosts and ravens are relying on mistakes on the zerg side to work. Just a few ravens (2-3) with point defence drones are basically the only thing that is reliable and stable. And also want to mention that both toss and zerg still have quite a lot unused potential in their late game against terran. They are not really forced to innovate in that situation because they already have the advantage and win if they do not %^-* up. Just to mention a few: Queen mass transfuse and 200+ supply for zerg and warp prism and sentry use in late game tvp.
Edited by submarine on 12/07/2012 10:51 BST
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Vs Toss: If they cant get single storm off and you have 15 vikings to deal with collossus why dont you use marines at all? Toss reinforce faster becuase can reinforce close to battle and in 200/200 scenario reverted production cycle gives advantage. Also 25 gates is much cheaper than 25 barracks with add ons. |
Wow what an ignorant statement. Right now zergs can get such an easy and save macro lead that all it takes is lings and banes to win. To stop that terran needs to have a lot of micro. Without tank focus fire and bio splits a terran can't trade with just lings and banes. And there are quite few terrans in lower leagues that can micro marine tank pushes. |
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Terran have the most expensive infatructure for unit production, but also the hardest to get rid of, sure Zerg might only need 1 infestation pit or greater spire. But take that out and oh look you lost that unit. Killing the one barracks will just slow down the unit production not outright stop it. Making offensive options to shut down terrans production much harder than other races. (with toss since you can technically shut down pylons to stop production for a time)
Also I can't help but feel that some of terrans issue lategame is the over reliance on mules early game. Resulting in terran not having mining bases for as long resulting in that stronger early, but lategame it results in a greater stunt of income compared to the other races. So zerg could still be on 3 mining bases but terran be on 2-1 bases because mules mined out the others already. |
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A thread compilation of statements and other shizzle wont make any difference, I think anyone who needs to know about balance, knows about balance by now, and will fix it eventualy. Stop wasting your energy writting long forum posts and learn to not get supply blocked and macro well untill the strategic aspect of the game is fixed and you'll win more.
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Concerning TvP:
Lets compare some cost for buildings: U want as toss for the late late game: 1 core (50), 18 gates (2700), 2 robos + support bay (600\400), council + templar archiv (300\300), 2 forges (300) i will explude rare things such as mothership tech and dt`s that. all in all thats 3950 minerals and 700 gas for the infrasturktur. as a Terran: 12 rax + addons (lets say 3 reactors 9 techlabs) (2400\370), Factory + 2 Starport with reactors (700\400), 2 Engi bays + Armory (450\100), Ghost Academy (150\150?) all in all 3700 Minerals and 1020 gas So the "big" difference for the late late game is 250 minerals and 320 gas in the pvt matchup, thats not much in a 30+min game. Granted for zerg its a lot more but thats part of zerg`s mechanic. As a response to the Arguments made against my previous points
Of course u can still loose the game is mostly balanced afterall but if u mikro things perfectly (witch is very very hard oc) there is no way toss can deal with a terran very late game composition so its rly the terrans game to loose. I agree that it shouldnt be that way couse the mikro is way to hard and the punishment for messing it up is extreamly extensive, but if u make the mikro easier u will have to balance the unit power some other way around.
Of course toss is favored in that situation when they just compleated thier tech and u didnt go for a similar power built as terran. Same is ture if the toss goes for early warpgate preasure and doesnt do dmg until stimm and medivacs are out, u get just steamroled. Concerning TvZ:
I disagree on that one. Seaker misiles have the same range as Fungals or corupters and emp outranges broodlords at the very edge on the circle so u can actualy emp infestors underneath of broodlords. Might still be more difficult then mikroing infestors but thats kind of terrans curse (and i dont like it btw). Once again i do see a slight imablance in the TvZ midgame but that might also be due to the exploring stage after the 5 range queens change. |
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The problem with any balance argument, in whatever game, is that you do not get sensible constructive debate, especially from players of the OP faction(s). All that matters is winning and what does it matter if it's only because the faction is OP, and that it's got nothing to do with strategy or skill?
I really could not believe that the latest patch buffed Protoss. Why? What was the reasoning behind making upgrades cheaper? And did Terran really need another nerf? Do the guys responsible actually play the game? I actually once upon a time believed all the nonsense about Blizzard striving to get the balance right.
Edited by Bazul on 12/07/2012 20:38 BST
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And you , !@#$ing zergs, if your baneling bust does not work, you go for mass roaches. If mass roaches does not work you go mass mutas. And if that does not work too, you cry and say terran is op...rly now? gtfo idiots go l2p terran is the hardest race atm, and it will be nerfed I am sure of it..at least in HotS we have a counter to baneling bust...and to col.....%^-*ing inbalance
Edited by FranticOgre on 12/07/2012 22:00 BST
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So these threads are nothing but !@#$flinging, /vg/ is a joke, is Teamliquid any good?
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And you , !@#$ing zergs, if your baneling bust does not work, you go for mass roaches. If mass roaches does not work you go mass mutas. And if that does not work too, you cry and say terran is op...rly now? gtfo idiots go l2p terran is the hardest race atm, and it will be nerfed I am sure of it..at least in HotS we have a counter to baneling bust...and to col.....%^-*ing inbalance This is a friendly comment to you with all the respect of this planet please get up to platinum before posting your balance views. Please. Because i am not trolling you but seriously look, you're whining about baneling bust (baneling bust is an all-in) if the baneling bust fails zerg is dead and cannot go mass roach anymore if you defended it properly. If you lose to mass roaches on the follow-up you've failed to defend the baneling bust. Baneling bust is defended with 2 bunkers and a strong wall-in. Nothing more needed - except for the fact that you scout it coming. |
Concerning TvP: I suggest you check out your source Fungal has range of 12 when emp has range of 11.5 see? thats 0.5 difference so it OUTRANGES EMP. |
[quote] MMA recently won IronSquid no problem: Up against Symbol and NesTea as the two Zergs, with Alive ending up 4th, another Terran player. Since I don't know much about TvP, not going to talk about that: However, I do play a lot of ZvT myself and up until the higher leagues it's pretty darn even - I'm only gold, so the balancing change didn't do that much to me. My creep spread is pretty bad, that's why. Maybe the queen buff wás a little too much and needs to get counter'd atleast a bit on the Terran side. (ORRR Terran start using ravens. :<) I mostly think Terran just needs to figure stuff out though. The changes are so young and much can be learned from this. |
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