Topic
Strange Protoss behavior
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Edited by Sten on 09/07/12 15:50 (BST)
I see it like this. Players tried killing each other very early but those who went for a macro game started getting better at defending, also different patches could help with this, like the queen buff which makes most terran today go for very early expansion and third. The reason for this is if they don't kill off the opponent with this early rush or do enough damage they will fall behind and probably lose.
Greedy play vs greedy play. Greedy play versus rush (usually dies if to greedy) A very good all in right now against terran is the zergling/baneling/roaches versus an expanding terran. 6-pool being the counter to FFE is to punish a protoss for doing this build and hopefully force him to 1base which most zergs feel more comfortable playing against. The game evolves, but in such way that players get better at defending. Once terran survives the zergling/banling/roach all in, zerg will stop with it, because this will just mean we fall behind and could lose from this. Zerg will come up with a new way to punish a greedy terran. Also, I do agree that alot of people try to copy the professional players which prevents them from being creative and trying out new things. But why the professional players change their tactics is because there are better and more effecient ways to go and/or the opponent is defending to good for the old tactic to do anything.
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Nexus first is usually a 14-15 nexus, into 15 forge, 17-18 gateway and cannon. Because of the timings of that, the cannon is actually out faster than with a FFE but it's slightly less economical doing it that way. If you go for a 16 or later nexus and do the same thing, the timings work out so that the lings will get there way before your forge finishes. |
Nexus first is usually a 14-15 nexus, into 15 forge, 17-18 gateway and cannon. The cannon isnt faster than 12 forge expand, wtf ur talking about lol. Nexus first is 15nexus then forge, thats way slower than 12 forge. |
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Don¨t know if you remember me, maybe i've had a namechange as well Elvaanos.
Just wanted to tell you welcome back, and i'm hoping for you staying as long as possible. You always had such useful posts back before, and some posts really got me to diamond back then as well. Now my computers have broken down so i can only play at friends houses and well i'm not getting to play that often so i, myself have got a bit rusty to. Anyway welcome back and have some fun after your long break :) |
Don¨t know if you remember me, maybe i've had a namechange as well Elvaanos. Thanks man, what name did you have before? P.S. I am terribly rusty now.. it is gonna take me a while to get back to Diamond X_X |
Nexus first is usually a 14-15 nexus, into 15 forge, 17-18 gateway and cannon. Forge first is supposed to be at 17. |
You have no clue about protoss build orders now do you? Please diamond zerg do some research before teaching masters ppl how nexus first is faster than normal 12-14 forge opener. Faster to get cannon up ofcourse. |
You must cut a lot to get that done then. Stopping probe production so early. I'm really surprised at something like that. |
your not cutting probes to do 12-14 forge. There is no stop =) same with liek 12 gate or 13 gate u dont cut probes to do it, production works all the time |
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Edited by CygnusX on 10/07/12 19:01 (BST)
KaNwA, I have seen many useful and on-spot suggestions from you, I am somewhat confused how did you come up with 17 forge?
Assuming you build stuff in your main, after your first pylon you can build either gateway or forge on 12 (if you delay second chronoboost) or 13 (if you double-chronoboost on Nexus). Of course you don't want your forge in the main but in the natural, so there is some minor delay in the fact that you have to send your probe earlier to plant the first pylon in the natural, and that said probe has to wait there to plant the forge. But that's all regarding hurting your eco. You don't cut probes. Perhaps 17 forge comes when you double-pylon first. But you don't do that. |
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Edited by Azoryen on 10/07/12 20:26 (BST)
I'm sure he was thinking of some other BO and that's all, let's not make this the center of the discussion. Btw, according to teamliquid's BO, the standard is forge on 14. But I'm a lot more interested in exploring this statement:
I tried to analyse this a little by looking at a very recent replay of pro level Nexus first: http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/56836 Notice that protoss scouts with pylon probe and gets to opp's base at around 1:45. At this moment he is on 13 food and basically zero minerals, which means he is not commited to any BO at all. He could be going FFE, gateway first, etc and everything would look the same. So protoss doesn't go nexus first blindly and hope for the best. If he scouts the 6pool he is in a position to immediately abort any plans of a nexus first. The question is how this works on 4 spawn position maps. Maybe protoss does something along these lines: if I get lucky with my scout, I can go Nexus first, otherwise I go forge first. Do zergs even 6pool in 4 position maps? |
The question is how this works on 4 spawn position maps. Maybe protoss does something along these lines: if I get lucky with my scout, I can go Nexus first, otherwise I go forge first. Against me zergs tend to 6pool on 4 player maps, since its kinda coinflip, imagine he does 6pool and you scout him in last possible place, the lings are half map to you by that time almost, so you have no time to prepare. |
Since it seems you WILL try that 6pool, PLEASE post your feedback here. Hey Elvanos, how have you been doing with the 6pool? How's the winrate? |
Since it seems you WILL try that 6pool, PLEASE post your feedback here. Cant post anything yet mate... been to 2 rock/metal festivals in last week... didnt have much time to play xD |
Since it seems you WILL try that 6pool, PLEASE post your feedback here. Alright people, I have a (somewhat so far) working tactic with 6-pool transitioning into a Ling/Roach/Muta army... so far I have one winning replay (because I lost 2 others when I was trying to come up with a counter tactic for the protoss strategy), but so far it seems to be working fairly well. Stay tuned! If it is gonna prove to be worthy strategy then I will have a couple of replays out in a week or so.... maybe even with some commentary on YT! :P |
