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they dont getting used vs terran now and are instant death vs protoss now, every fricking noob in bnet is now playing stephano timing 3 bases and all in and they win for the most part, its redicoulos. Every one can clearly see a roach is stronger than a stalker and a stalker costs twice as much as a roach both gas and minerals. roach makes more damage than a stalker has almost the same life and the same armor. All what the stalker have is blink and higher range while roaches can move burrowed and heal faster.

Now you say i am a noob and you say ohh look how many protoss win this and that tournmanet, You just have to make timing attacks .. yade yade. What you guys dont get protoss shouldnt be in that situation that all whats left for him is 2 base timing attacks. while zerg can play how they want Toss should be like in all other match up be able to play normal but they cant against zerg. Its like i am Zerg lets see what you can do about it mentality for toss all the time. They have immidialy think how they gonna crush zerg in the next 10 minutes its redicoulos. Then if your attack succeeds its win, if not you lost. Its such a dumb match up, there is only this big attack thats it. And the zerg can allways max out very quickly. The zerg also can allways switch between lings and roaches all the time making your immortals useless at some situations or switching to mutas before the attack. taking a third is impossible, terrans have it easier since they can build their expansion at home and then land but toss is screwed up lings or other roach attack thats it.

Nerf the roach its too strong unit, decrease its lifepoints or increase the cost of the units its redicoulous as i said 1 roach is stronger than a stalker there is no debate about it even for you zerg player and it costs half the price.

Almost every zerg mass roach in ZvP for a reason...they are simply so cost effective, especially against toss before too many immortals/colossi

Since when is Stephano's strategy popular?
Couldn't it be to early to change the balance? Shouldn't the community have more time to adapt?

06/07/2012 04:51Posted by HFkami

What you guys dont get protoss shouldnt be in that situation that all whats left for him is 2 base timing attacks. while zerg can play how they want Toss should be like in all other match up be able to play normal but they cant against zerg.

Define "play normal"?
Isn't scouting the enemy's strategy and picking a counter strategy normal play?

Define "play normal"?
Isn't scouting the enemy's strategy and picking a counter strategy normal play?

perhaps he wants to say "no all-ins and no FFEs"

standard play like...make an army...wait 5-6 mins before you expand, don't harass, mass up army til 200/200 and attack.

Define "play normal"?
Isn't scouting the enemy's strategy and picking a counter strategy normal play?

perhaps he wants to say "no all-ins and no FFEs"

standard play like...make an army...wait 5-6 mins before you expand, don't harass, mass up army til 200/200 and attack.

That doesn't sound standard, though. That just sounds like bad play.

Aaaand the rest of this post is directed towards the opening post..

But I love how the topic creator conveniently forgets to mention how Stalkers can shoot both air & ground targets, has a longer range and is faster straight out the gateway. Pretty much beats a non-upgraded Roach with no contest, no? Sure, give the roach 3 upgrades and it DESERVES to at least stand a chance vs a stalker. C'mon now, for real.

And "all the stalker has is blink"? Really? All the stalkers have is blink?!? It's an upgrade that creates the easiest micro opportunities to make the unit one of the most cost efficient killing machine in the game! (before someone gets his panties in a bunch: deliberately over exaggerated )
Stalkers cost more than Roaches because they have more utility. Even comparing them 1:1 is ridiculous. There are plenty of examples out there (vods/replays) of Protoss deflecting the roach/ling ALL IN (hint hint) and successfully grabbing a third / just outright beating the zerg there & then.

Define "play normal"?
Isn't scouting the enemy's strategy and picking a counter strategy normal play?

perhaps he wants to say "no all-ins and no FFEs"

standard play like...make an army...wait 5-6 mins before you expand, don't harass, mass up army til 200/200 and attack.

He wants to build anything, a-move and win. Its just a kid throwing another hissy fit that needs to l2p

perhaps he wants to say "no all-ins and no FFEs"

standard play like...make an army...wait 5-6 mins before you expand, don't harass, mass up army til 200/200 and attack.

He wants to build anything, a-move and win. Its just a kid throwing another hissy fit that needs to l2p

Plz goldie, zerg is the a-move race. And no I don't only play toss.

I normally don’t like to complain about balance but I actually think roaches are too cheap as well. Marines and Roaches are two cheapest unit in the game with their ability and HP. The HP for marines are fine but their attack is too versatile to cost no gas. Roaches is a bit more expensive than marines because it cannot shoot air but still, 145 HP for 75 minerals does not make sense.

For example, the lings has 35 for 25 mineral, I think it is fair, just like 100 minerals for 100/50 zealots, about the same cost. However, the roaches cost 75 minerals for 145 HP, to me, it does not make sense. No unit cost that low for such high HP, especially with initial armour, the 25 gas for range attack is alright, maybe a bit too expensive for range 4 but 25 gas cost is the lowest in the game, cannot really be any lower. I say the gas for range attack is fair but 75 minerals for 145 HP, just no…

The only unit I can think off cost that low on minerals for HP are archons, however, they used up at least 250 gas for big shield cost so I think it is balanced. For 250~300 gas cost for range 3 attacks (albeit high dps to light) is high but they have high shield so it is fine.

Most unit in the game trade well for minerals for HP, I honestly cannot think of any other units cost low minerals for high HP as imba as roaches. Well, I think hydras are too cheap for their mineral cost but close (the same ratio for mineral cost as probes and drones). Roaches are pretty imba in that sense.

I'm not sure roaches are the problem.

But when I see a zerg building two expansions at the same time without any kind of tech nor scouting at all...

06/07/2012 10:21Posted by Pleurodesed

But when I see a zerg building two expansions at the same time without any kind of tech nor scouting at all...

And get a lot roaches about 1 minute later...

I hate that, when toss can get a good position between their natural and third base along with a few sentries at each entrance, I can't kill them until they move out, and make a mistake by going along a stupid path.

Counter attacks are what makes roachling so strong offensively. A good toss can shut that down though, so roachling is actually pretty useless against a good defensively postured toss player.
Teching to infestor brood lord from that point, when the toss is going collosi cause they scouted that roachling production has stopped, is really !@#$ing dangerous, and you're going to lose about 60-80% of games to that old standard 15-17 minute collosi push.

"Warps in"

Roaches are too cheap for what they can do, but the main problem imho is the low dps of stalkers (for their cost) which is 14 vs armored and 10 vs everything else. Even the marine has higher dps than the stalker.
Let's compare the 2 units in question shall we:
- Stalker, 42 seconds to produce (with warps gate it takes at least 30 seconds to cooldown, please check), 10 dmg normal and 14 vs armored, cost 125 minerals and 50 gas, can shoot anything with 6 range, has ability to blink every 10 seconds for 150/150 cost, receives +1 dmg per attack upgrade, has 1 armor at start and is quite fast for movement.
- Roach, 27 seconds to produce, 16 dmg normal, cost 75 minerals and 25 gas, can ONLY attack ground units with 4 range, has a speed upgrade to make it move faster than a stalker for 100/100 cost (not sure if faster, please check), ability to burrow for 100/100 cost and an upgrade to allow it to move underground (which allows it to either sneak past defences or escape/retreat without detection present either way) for 150/150 cost, see below for more.

Part 2 about the Roach, recieves +2 dmg per attack upgrade, has 1 armor at start and has decent speed at start for movement. The 2 units take 2 supply each.

Conclusion:
Roaches compared to their "equivalent" in tech which are the Stalkers, are indeed too cheap for their health, dps and speed. BUT they can't shoot air, have slightly lower range and need 3 upgrades for a Roach to be "complete" for a total of 350/350 cost whereas the Stalker only needs blink to be "complete" which comes to a total of 150/150 cost.
In a duel between 1 Stalker and 1 Roach, the Stalker wins barely by a few seconds with 5 hp with no upgrades either side and standing at same range from the start of the duel (3 range away from each other so no kitting from the Stalker to make it a fair fight). The Stalker thus is very slightly superior to the Roach and shoots a bit faster but Roaches are easily mass able due to how the Zerg race works. No QQ was involved while writing this, just my opinion and comparison.
Source: actually played the game and checked the 2 units in game.

"Warps out"

I wish stalkers were made more anti-air and harass/support oriented and immortals made more accessible. Games would be much more interesting.

06/07/2012 13:06Posted by Ghostleader

"Warps in"

please stop that !@#$. It's really weird.

06/07/2012 13:06Posted by Ghostleader

Roaches are too cheap for what they can do, but the main problem imho is the low dps of stalkers (for their cost) which is 14 vs armored and 10 vs everything else. Even the marine has higher dps than the stalker.

That's why they invented a unit which allows you to make it so that only 6 roaches can fight 20 stalkers at a time. Tell me which side is favoured in engagements like that.

Let's compare the 2 units in question shall we:
- Stalker, 42 seconds to produce (with warps gate it takes at least 30 seconds to cooldown, please check)

That's actually really misleading. It's 30 seconds, yes. However, you're forgetting how gateway mechanics work. I warp in 6 stalkers NOW as my army retreats, and then another 6 when you get to my base. Zerg can only morph in one round by the time you get to their base unless they already had a round of units hatch just as the started retreating. It's a weird mechanic.
Also, comparing two units specifically when the unit composition of protoss is focussed on sentry micro, is really not a good idea. Very misleading.

06/07/2012 13:27Posted by Ghostleader

In a duel between 1 Stalker and 1 Roach, the Stalker wins barely by a few seconds with 5 hp with no upgrades either side and standing at same range from the start of the duel (3 range away from each other so no kitting from the Stalker to make it a fair fight).

So even when the roach gets to shoot first, it loses. The roach is therefore a far worse unit than a stalker in both a 1 on 1 battle and when sentries are used. How on earth can you argue that they're too cheap when just simple micro techniques nullify damage from roaches and crush them with a superior army size?

No, you get it wrong.. ^^,

We (Zerg), reacts to your (Protoss) FFE. Remember we used Mutas? You couldn't handle it, so they buffed Phoenix. Now you have to deal with Roaches.

If Roaches gets nerfed then we have to do something like a ling/bling all in or something like that :)

What would happen if you didn't FFE? Well, then we couldn't use 3 base Roach timing against you. Think about that for a second. The FFE triggers the Zerg to do that strat.

Without FFE in PvZ Toss is a joke .
Sure you can be greedy in another way but its luck dependent and not solid play .

There's a difference between something being Overpowered and you having L2P issues. From what I have read, you have an L2P issue, until the pros start complaining about Roaches (which is very unlikely) Roaches will not get a nerf, simple as. So instead of screaming "OVERPOWERED!" why don't you learn to counter Roaches? Instead of being insistent on going for stalkers, even you though know that's not the best option to counter them, but you do it anyway, and when you get stomped on, you cry.

I know I have much to improve on, but I'm not sat here complaining about what's overpowered, If I lose, I know it's because I messed up, such as, I might of not scouted correctly, or didn't position myself properly, or didn't build the adequate force. No one can say something is overpowered until they can play at a Pro level, simple as. This is an L2P issue, and nothing else.

Roaches aren't that good. A 200/200 zerg with roaches against a 200/200 protoss with stalkers, immortals, sentries, colossi... there's no doubt which army will win. But roaches are alright if you're able to mass them quickly enough, there's a slight time window before protoss gets its deathball up, after that you need 2 or 3 army remakes to make a dent.

Roaches are bad against terran. Bioball will rip through roaches with their high dps, and with medevacs it's a LOL. They're only useful is some all-in early rush. Siege tanks lay waste to roaches.

I think the roach is just fine as it is, a fine but dull mid-game unit.

I crush the 200 roach max at 11 mins with my 6 min third ;)