Topic
Stimpack way too good?
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I find it that terrans who do very fast stimpack builds are too hard to counter. For instance, if I explicitly see a 3 rax build, I have to cancel my nexus in order to be able to get my gateways up in time for the defensive. If I do however, not see the 3 rax as in most cases, since terrans wall off alot. How do I survive any push? It's so difficult as the only thing that kills terrans is splash damage.
Why not make the stimpack more expensive? I saw somewhere around that people find stimpack too useful for its cost. So why not increase either the cost in time or the cost in resources to be able to get the gateways up in time before the push? Of course, 3 rax wouldn't be much viable then, but I think that since it is so hard to scout if it's 3 rax or not, in which other case it's most likely a 1 rax expand. Versus a terran, you basicly have to early expand to the natural, or you will either defend a 3 rax, or nothing. So basicly, I have to take a risk, because zergies can scout naturals with ovies, but I can basicly only send a probe, a stalker or I will have to blindly take the expansion, and I then will not have the gates up in time vs a 3 rax. Besides, I need those early units to defend any early aggression from terran. And even in late game, terrans are so flexible at the moment. I am forced to go down the archon or colossus tech path until I get my third base up, and because of the high gas cost, I cannot go for a little bit of both. How can terrans have the ability to stay with their t1 all game, while I am forced to go for straight t3 to be able to even stay alive, and then their t1 units are stronger than mine up until 16 minutes, and I barely have enough units to defend all angles, while they have so many units that they can drop, stim and then run away after sniping tech or economy. I think stimpack is the problem in early game, the last things I said were just nonsense. Ignore that as it has nothing to do with the context. But, since Charge costs 200/200, shouldn't stim cost atleast 100/200? It would force them to go for mostly marines in the early game and making them choose between stim or marauders. I think that would balance the early game abit, as stim with marines, will do the same amount of damage as marine/marauder with no stim. I think that they, if they also add combat shield to the Marine/Marauder, no stim, it's still way powerful in early game. I don't really mind toss being nerfed in late game, and the Battle Hellion will hopefully address that, so that isn't really a problem, but how will we kill those as toss? Colossus? Because nothing else will cut it. I would like it if they did not create the Tempest, but instead some new ground unit to spice up the mix. Make the Oracle, give DTs an energy bar, and a spell to steal energy from units (or something), and also make some ground unit to kill warhound, as it is apparently anti-mech (colossus, which kills hellions nicely.) |
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Stim is a necessary part of terran play and should be readily available. Stalkers completely own marines, as do zealots without stutter stepping + stim. Protoss units on their own are pretty awesome, zealots without charge are still very tanky and work extremely well with forcefields. Marines with no upgrades are almost worthless, they need their stim and combat shield to actually make them decent units. Admittedly they become VERY powerful but that's why protoss have templar and colossi.
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Dont be so greedy and want to fast expand blind. Do a 3 stalker rush and see how many marines that will defend before expanding. Protoss is the side that does it best one one base i think. So you can easely wait with expanding until you get zealot charge and +1 armor. Unless off course terran fast expands , then fortunatly you can expand right after him and be ahead at midgame with chronoprobes from the second nexus.
And ye stim is good ,very good. But it has been nerfed majorly once allready so i dont see the lightning hitting it twise. Its probably the longest research terran got , perhaps in the game? to make sure toss could get all 4 gates up. Just dont expand before you know if its an all in or not. |
Because this is how the game works. Terran's tier 3 is worthless and Protoss tier 3 is insane, if it was the same there would be no variation, making matches/games boring to watch. You also have to consider Terrans just general lack of splash damage. They have Siege tanks and Helions (and EMP "I guess" but only against toss) off the top of my head. Where as Protoss have Colossi, Archons and Storm which are arguably the best AoE in the game (all in the same race) and rinse any sort of bio composition in a straight up fight. You also have to look at it from the Terran perspective, the lategame against protoss is pretty dam difficult to win unless you do damage, and you can turtle as Protoss effectively enough to prevent that. new ground unit to spice up the mix. I also don't really agree with this. If anything would spice up protoss it would be an air unit as stargate tech is woefully underused on the whole, adding another ground unit just makes ground even better making the stargate even more worthless. |
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They can't really save the stargate anyway. And removing the Carrier, will only screw things over more. Yes, terran lategame is worthless at this point of time, but in the new expansion, they get Battle Hellions to tank damage and deal massive damage to chargelots, leaving us with only colossi to use, which tanks will hit. So mech will become a very viable strategy then.
Lategame fixed there, anything else? Only Storm will hurt alot. So since Blizzard won't fix units before Heart of The Swarm, I'm just spinning the wheel from there. They could also make terran mech very viable by removing the Thor's energy bar, thus making it a very good unit. 50mm cannons aren't very good, and Thor is so rarely used anymore+the warhound will easily kill any protoss mech unit. However, Stimpack in itself is not overpowered, I agree with this. But the fact that it is so easily attainable at a low price, it is impossible to even fend off a 3 rax, unless you scout it, kick the nexus and add on 2 gateways + maybe a robo for immortals. The thing that makes it so good, is the fact that I cannot scout their tech. If they go for a 3 rax, which is the only hard thing to hold, I must see at the very least a tech lab to be anticipating it, and even then they can just go tech lab into expo. What to do then? I have 3 gates and a robo I can barely use cause they built bunkers. Maybe making cannons more accessible could fix the early and midgame, as cannons have a good ability to defend off early pushes. I find it that the terran flexibility is nice, but it is way too hard for protoss to scout, and I can barely deny scouts because I have to get a very expensive stalker early to deny any scouting of my tech and production. Terrans just need to make 1 marine and a good wall to defend the scouting. |
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I feel the same. If Terran can effectively deal with both zealots (battle hellions) and Colossi (Warhound), what option can Protoss do? Well, it will improve the Terran late game by a lot but I feel it is a bit too much. I heard they will nerf ghosts, is it true? So Protoss will have to abuse HT and storm, is it?
The early game though, with mothership core, Protoss can probably expand quite safely but I feel all those changes are just switching the curret position of PvT around. So Protoss will have to harass and kill Terran in the mid game or they are going to face an unbeatable Mech army? Are they going to buff immortal’s production time and range. I feel there will be a lot of immortals play in HotS. |
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Oh, by the way. Stim pack is not op. It is good but not that op. I actually think warp gate research is a better research than Stim.
With stim, marine has 10.7 dps and marauders has 10 to light and 20 to armor for 15 seconds. Yes, powerful but 15 seconds is shorter than you think if you micro your zealots and warp in units quickly. It still take one marine or one marauder 15 seconds to kill one zealot. If you have equal amount of zealots, only front zealots (about 10 of them) will suffer damage and if you have a good position, you can pull everything back with losing a tons of them. Unless Terran has a lead and just push the zealots to a cornder with bigger force, Protoss player will be doomed. Otherwise, I think stim is just ok. Especially if 80 supply worth of the army all stim together. Can you imagine how much damage stim actually do to the whole army? |
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3 rax timing attack is not very good is because the CC is too slow and too easy to calculate the timing. I think 2 rax expand with stim pressure is a lot hard to guess. 3 rax timing is so late that your probe should be able to hide at the natural and you should have a rough idea.
I don’t believe you would guess it wrong every single time and if he is really hiding the CC and not mining, you have an advantage anyway. Depends on the map but when you have 2 base 4 gate and 4~5 sentries, you really should hold a 3 rax timing with only gate way unless you mass up your micro and did not get enough units. 2 base 8 rax stim timing is a lot more scary. Gateway units definitely cannot hold it with AoE. Even with storm, it will be hard. You need to have colossi but you still need to be careful with them. |
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Edited by Bondoila on 31/07/12 14:48 (BST)
EMP is not equal to storm in anyway. You can only remover the shields with it, storm can just kill an entier 200 army on it's own. And no it's no way that yuo can emp all templars before a storm goes of it's impossible in late game if the ht's is a bit spread out and there is a few back up ht's as well. It's plaine hopeless to play against mass ht's ...
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