Topic Advice on PvP?
Hello! High platinum protoss player, struggling in PvP. Like seriously, what am I supposed to do? I used to do NaniWa's blink observer build but it turns out that just dies to ANYTHING. Then I went back to Hero's Stargate opener, which usually fails because I can't get enough units out in time to push the opponent. Then every now and then I try to just go 4 gate, hahahaha. Such bull!@#$ build, against any competent player it fails, but I occassionally lose to it :P.
Anyway, my PvT is really good. I rarely lose a game, so my winrate is above 70 % there, overall. PvZ is over 50%, maybe 60% atm. PvP is like 20% or something. I find PvP incredibly hard, as I basicly have no clue in any circumstance how to beat anything. So is there any good build anyone could recommend? I tried 1 gate, robo, 2 gate, expand, and it worked out OK. But I was up against a DT player, so I eventually didn't have enough stuff to beat him. Colossi are %^-* vs Archons so I was forced to go Immortal's, which his zealots will completely eat. I think I had 1 colossus in first battle, but then I lost it, and had like 3-4 immortals to 4-5 archons and mass sentry, zealot.
I really can't figure this out :S It's impossible to do anything vs any other toss. I'm really frustrated, since the only thing keeping me out of Diamond right now is PvP. Otherwise I'd be diamond soon. But it's so complex. It's pretty much like any other matchup, units have their counters and counter certain things. But when I have the same setup of units as the opponent, it becomes sooo hard to figure out what to do.
If I go safe like Geiko 3 gate, I will lose eventually since opponent is ahead in tech, and he denies my scouting probe so I cannot scout if he went robo, stargate or blink/dts. It's just so hard to know what to do. And when they go archons, it's even harder, since archons are almost unkillable with ANY protoss units.
Help me, please. So frustrated right now.
PvP is a frustrating matchup for sure and I feel your pain. One thing you have to understand is that in PvP sometimes you've just got to take the loss. It's pretty much impossible to have a perfect build order that is good against everything so you will end up having a lot of build order losses. It's inevitable, the best thing you can do is find a build that works best in the current PvP metagame. Personally, I'm under the impression that below Masters, Robotics builds are the strongest. They are good against Blink(Obs), 4 Gate, 3 gate agro, 3 Stalker FE, Robo, and DT. That is a lot of things that it is good against. The thing that it's bad against is obviously Phoenix. Fortunately most players below Masters don't use Phoenix because they take a lot of actions and are relatively difficult to use. Also, playing Robo against SG isn't a flat-out lose, there are ways to come back in this scenario, especially if your opponents aren't that great.
The build order I would recommend goes along the lines of this.
If you feel pressured, get an Immortal first, if not get the Observer for faster scouting. The natural transition from this Build is expand+colossus or expand+Immortal drop. These are the things that you want to do in a macro PvP. I highly recommend Immortal drop with Warp Prism speed as it's probably the absolute strongest build in the PvP matchup, though you do need to be careful as Phoenix can ruin your day entirely. If I see Phoenix with my Observer I immediately cancel my Robo bay, throw down a Nexus if it's not already being built and get some more Stalkers out before getting a Twilight Council and Blink. Against an early expansion I do a 1 Immortal, 1 Colossus, 4 Gateway all-in. This wins like 95% of the time in this scenario. Against Blink I get out 3 or so Immortals and a Colossus to break the Sentry contain and then expand. Against Dark Templar I get 2 Observers and scout heavily to see whether or not it's an expand or an all-in build. Against an all-in with Archons throw down a building wall.
Edited by Discobunnyx on 06/08/12 13:40 (BST)
One thing that works like 30% of the cases in gold is just 2 proxy gates and spam his !@# with zealots. You could always cannon rush if you just want that win.
But ye, If you manage to hold his push in a cheeseless match (if you're doing 1 less gate + robo then he is) with units left, you can pretty much expand and start mashing upgrades, if he tries to expand himself at this point, don't be afraid to do a zealot drop in his main, just to give you a slight macro advantage.
While on 2 bases, try to make a timing attack, if it fails mash units and prepare for a counter - if you scout an expand either all in or take a third youself.
This is what has worked for me while praccing vs plat protosses. It seems to work down here in silver/gold too. :)
Here's a replay of it;
Obviously that's silver/gold and I do some mistakes, but he does like 10x more. Although you get the concept: When he retreats > expand.
all my matchups were good enough except for ma PvP, so i found this build, tried it out and it got me to masters.
So i recommend this build :)
I don't know about 4 gate nowadays. Offensive 4 gate is too risky, defensive 4 gate delay tech. Tech is quite important in PvP.
3 stalkers rush to 2 Gate robo to 3 gate robo expand after offensive 4 gate timing, I think is pretty safe. After that, get into colossi war.
Edited by Discobunnyx on 06/08/12 14:29 (BST)
Uhm, that 1g preassure into dt rush into archon/chargelots did the trick for me last game.
My first push with 2 zealots and 1 stalker got shut down because he got immortal first from robo(1g robo build), but I just kept on picking stuff of and when my DT's came he hard countered it with observers, so I did archons straight away. Chargelots + archons are kinda good. They just ate him.
Thanks guys for all the advice. But I just feel like I get smashed on the face when I do 1 gate robo>2 gate. And that Byaka build is,sorry to say complete !@#$. If opponent shuts DT harrassment down, you will lose. And 90% of the time, they will go robo. If they go 4 gate, they lose if you can hold. But they will defenitely lose if so happens to be the case.
It's just so frustrating because I always lose in the matchup. And 4 gate is dead these days anyway. No reason to do it anymore.
Edited by StaraCroft on 07/08/12 15:56 (BST)
Do the one you like... all pvp builds are safe against anything... except for HUKs, don't copy his. Get a pro replay of a build and note down chrono and build timings exactly. Simple things like getting a pylon before or after cybernetics can break builds.
I personally like phoenix best.
A lot of bad toss players I face in diamond just play completely randomly. They 9 scout which puts them behind economically, and there's nothing that a 9scout will tell you that a 14 scout won't. Their chronos are all over the place and the builds are stuff like 4gate stargate without a scout or a 4gate that amasses units in the middle of the map and hits at 7:30. If you get your execution somewhat right, you should hold anything with anything.
I stop reading the "80% winrate" build order threats, but executed correctly a dt expand build is pretty solid. If you like blink/obs, keep doing that. there is no reason to loose with it other than bad execution or better execution by your opponent. There aren't really any Build order losses in pvp other than if you do 1base all-ins without detection.
I don't depend on it too much anymore, but that build got me to Master league. It should be fine in Silver, unless you're doing it wrong. If he went fast Robo, you should just get a fast Archon, wait for your Charge to finish and then bust into his base. Easy win.
There are 2 pretty hard counters I can think of, but I doubt your Silver opponents will know them.
Did you even read what I wrote at the beginning Canyarion? I am platinum now, not silver lol. And I hate that Byaka build, totally hate it. Did it once, got steamrolled by 3 gate robo for some reason. Maybe I did it badly, maybe I did it well and he played better but I lost anyway.
I have actually begun getting the feel for PvP. I just do 2 gate pressure with 3 stalkers while I get another 2 zealots to help me push them. It seems very good vs 4 gate timings for some reason. Then while I push, I get a robo and then a 3rd gateway. After that, I expand because I usually do alot of damage by killing their opening units. This is bad for a 4 gate for sure, as I just reduced their push potency quite a bit. If I kill their opening units, I still have a bunch of units which I can kill probes with to delay any aggression, and if I decide to pull back and expand, they cannot push me unless I play terribly, I'll just kill the warping pylon as they have no ground army to do anything about it.
If anyone else is struggling in PvP, try 2 gate pressure. Really useful build to get you into the midgame, and then you get 1-2 immortals, 3 colossi and kill him.
lol calm down lmao
Thers loads of things you can do in PvP but i recommend not doing a 2 gate push :p
2 gate blink expand,
3 gate observer pressure into expand,
warp prism immortal pressure into expand,
2 gate phoenix + robo play,
3 gate expand into 7 gate push
(Byaka build!&^%#@&$^@#!$&*^$)) :p
Which i find the best mid game tactic is (after doing 2 gate phoenix opening) going for phoenixes/observer speed/mothership and blink stalkers.
You can snipe his observer with phoenixes all day long and be cloaked under your mothership without him having detection (only cannons). Never lost a game once i reached that unit composition :)
I use the Byaka build and a 2 gate robo expand build, depending on which map I'm playing on. The Byaka build is extremely effective against pre-masters level opponents. PvP is by far my best matchup, in part due to that.
if they go robo, then grats, you just hard countered them with your chargelot/archons. Seeing an opponent go 2 or 3 gate robo is the second best thing you can see other than phoenix. Your mistake is probably thinking that the DTs are what win you the game when they are less important than either the initial ZZS push or the chargelots. They're basically just there to make archons to break forcefields.
Wow! Lol. It's the simplest matchup by far. There is basically no complexity at all.
1. Do you want to go 4 gate?
Yes: Attack at 6:20, you win or lose depending on whether they let you get high ground vision.
No: Go to 2.
2: Do you want to go 2 gate robo expand?
Yes: Make zealot, stalker, sentry, immortal, expand. Wall off with buildings if you suspect chargelots. Defend until Colossus wars.
No: Go to 3
3: Do you want to make Phoenix?
Yes: Probably lose due to making crappy phoenix build, either build order loss to DTs or get 4 gate and miss your FF on the ramp.
No: Good. You probably don't have the APM for phoenix. Go to 4.
4. Do you want to do a 1 base colossus build?
Yes: Make 2 colosuss at 10 min, A-move and hope for the best.
No: Go to 5
5. Do you want to rush with DTs?
Yes: Win game
No: Why not?
Because I don't realise how awesome the build is right now: Go to 5
And that's about it.
Edited by Emperor on 09/08/12 22:22 (BST)
4 gating might be something to try. If you do it perfectly you can start warping around 5:30, which i doubt most people in platinum will hold. BO is pretty simple.
11 gate (Chrono once)
22 3 more gates
26 Pylon and warp
Use 5 Chrono on Core and use 2 probes to build pylons with.
Alternativly you can do the 4 gate warp prism all in that Seed did in GSL finals or the more standard 4 gate blink all in. Either way, 4 gates are good.
Edited by Vardaine on 10/08/12 09:44 (BST)
all my matchups were good enough except for ma PvP, so i found this build, tried it out and it got me to masters.
I can second this post. Since I've been using this build, my win percentage in PvP is close to 100%. Usually I skip the first attack wave even and go straight for a DT rush. The brilliance of the build is that it doesnt rely on the DTs at all. You can build the TC and dark shrine at the top of your ramp if you want to.
The power of this build lies in the chargelot archon attack. You basically always win with that attack as he doesnt have the units to deal with it since he built stuff to defend your DTs.