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QQing about an unreleased game? Are you kidding me?
You cannot know how the game might develop, for all you know Toss early game might be OP because of the MSC.

08/08/2012 14:20Posted by Nabu

As a protoss player I hope for some units, abilites or tweaks that can give me some map control in early game or atleast make me a contestant.

Gateway units vs. Terran
Void Ray / Phoenix vs. Zerg

There.

08/08/2012 14:20Posted by Nabu

Even the T and Z players are whining about the protoss being passive and having to rely on the death ball.

That's because Terran doesn't have a death ball and the Zerg deathball comes too late for Protoss 2-base timings. Both of these problems are getting specific solutions in HotS - but by giving units to Zerg and Terran, not Protoss.

The counter to Phoenix play is regarded by Z players to be A HATCHERY. If your opponent can expand that easily then you dont have map control.

Preventing the opponent from expanding is called a "contain", not map control. Being able to take the middle of the map and prevent the opponent scouting your own expansion timings is map control.

Atm it seems that terran has gotten fixed late game units and zerg that never had any problem with units is just getting improved.. But protoss is just going have late game tier 3 units. Mothership core just seems to make protoss even more race that defends before he get late tier units HT's, colossus and new air units.

So is this some ''race uniqueness'' that only choices at start are pretty much like ''should I go 3 gate or 4 gate :O'' or why there is no new low tier unit choices for protoss?

Wow, that's some crazy math you're doing there. It's also wrong by a factor of 4. 150 energy would be 6 chrono boosts, but they designed the MC so that it has its own energy besides the Nexus. The core actually opens protoss up to more early aggression with less of a risk.

Atm it seems that terran has gotten fixed late game units and zerg that never had any problem with units is just getting improved.. But protoss is just going have late game tier 3 units. Mothership core just seems to make protoss even more race that defends before he get late tier units HT's, colossus and new air units.So is this some ''race uniqueness'' that only choices at start are pretty much like ''should I go 3 gate or 4 gate :O'' or why there is no new low tier unit choices for protoss?

HOTS will bring defensive options for the mothership core that will help defend against early aggresion on the natural and the oracle will certainly be a pain to deal with.

I agree that the design decisions for the protoss race really favors late game, which was not really needed IMO.

Right now, warpgate units are really good though. I do not see any room to buff them. Balancing the tech path so the protoss race relies less on rushing the tech would be a better idea IMO.

08/08/2012 12:55Posted by IIIIIIIIIIII

we are not even in the beta of hots yet. so many things will get patches and fixed before realise so talking about this atm is in my opinion just pointless

Talking about balance would be pointless, talking about design decisions is not.

I think what you should take away from this thread if anything is that people dislike QQ but would have reacted a lot better if you had tried to start a discussion on what new early strategies other people have in mind for HotS beta.

Think, toss has a problem in the beginning.
Maybe a idea is a gate doesnt need cybercore for a sentry a zealot.
This way we can make toss more aggresive and not do anything about the balance or new units.

Then we have enough time to go to late game units

just a thought

08/08/2012 19:57Posted by Obyrith

As a protoss player I hope for some units, abilites or tweaks that can give me some map control in early game or atleast make me a contestant.

Gateway units vs. Terran
Void Ray / Phoenix vs. Zerg

There.

Even the T and Z players are whining about the protoss being passive and having to rely on the death ball.

That's because Terran doesn't have a death ball and the Zerg deathball comes too late for Protoss 2-base timings. Both of these problems are getting specific solutions in HotS - but by giving units to Zerg and Terran, not Protoss.

The counter to Phoenix play is regarded by Z players to be A HATCHERY. If your opponent can expand that easily then you dont have map control.

Preventing the opponent from expanding is called a "contain", not map control. Being able to take the middle of the map and prevent the opponent scouting your own expansion timings is map control.

Using gateway units against terran requires a great amount of micro. Even progamers must use so much apm on microing that their macro suffers. For example next time you see a programer macroing stalkers against marines then look at their resources.
I have already spoken about stargate openings against zerg.

Regarding the deathball. So terrans and zerg have both map control and harrasement options and now they are getting a death ball. Can you see the descrepancy there? Protoss lack raiding units which are a real threat.

Contain/map control is all about controlling space.
If the opponent is controlling the front of your base then they are surely controlling much of the rest of the map. Map control is not about controlling every inch of the map and preventing a zerg to run in to your 3rd but about control specific high value locations (like choks og zelnaga towers for instance).

09/08/2012 09:28Posted by VIPIrony

Brainless puppet. Go whine about balance on some forum untill the pros figure the game out for you. Sissy. Oh wait, this is battle.net forums. Guess you're already doing that. Try and think outside the replays you download of pros, you can actually develop some pretty cool !@#$ on your own in this game.

So people cannot even talk about the game on the games offical forums?

So why are you whining about whiners?

Did gamescom happened yet? If it did, any new changes to the game? Did they take anything out of the game?

09/08/2012 12:02Posted by Nabu

I have already spoken about stargate openings against zerg.

Yes, and what you said on it you got prettu much all wrong. It dosnt take you 9 mins to get a oracle out if you FFE. I even linked you a replay.

Nor can a zerg get mutas out as fast as you claimed. You never addressed my points.

Contain/map control is all about controlling space.
If the opponent is controlling the front of your base then they are surely controlling much of the rest of the map. Map control is not about controlling every inch of the map and preventing a zerg to run in to your 3rd but about control specific high value locations (like choks og zelnaga towers for instance).

There are options with which to punish someone that tries to prevent you form moving out of your base, warp prism or 75 x 8 = 600 hp entomb from oracle are exellent ways to punish someone that tries to hang in front of your base. If they have troops back to defend, they certainly cant keep you contained.

08/08/2012 19:02Posted by OldManSocks

Push out with 5 stalkers 6 sentries 2 zealots and a immortal, push the zerg back and make him use all his larvea not on workers, then when he is about to swarm you, use mass recall... what is there not to get?!

09/08/2012 14:40Posted by Turha

I have already spoken about stargate openings against zerg.

Yes, and what you said on it you got prettu much all wrong. It dosnt take you 9 mins to get a oracle out if you FFE. I even linked you a replay.

Nor can a zerg get mutas out as fast as you claimed. You never addressed my points.

I think you are confusing me with someone else. I never spoke to you.

Contain/map control is all about controlling space.
If the opponent is controlling the front of your base then they are surely controlling much of the rest of the map. Map control is not about controlling every inch of the map and preventing a zerg to run in to your 3rd but about control specific high value locations (like choks og zelnaga towers for instance).

There are options with which to punish someone that tries to prevent you form moving out of your base, warp prism or 75 x 8 = 600 hp entomb from oracle are exellent ways to punish someone that tries to hang in front of your base. If they have troops back to defend, they certainly cant keep you contained.

You should not be using the word "punish" as freely as you do. An intelligent opponent will not pull whole his army back from a contain just because a P warped in 4-6 zealots. Secondly Z and T have almost always some units at their bases because they build there units from there bases and the units have to travel from the bases to the rest of the map. They dont have warpgate technology. A P player who just warped in the middle of the map and who just got dropped are pretty much getting his !@# kicked in his main base.

And I am not talking about contains so dont derail the discussion to that. I only spoke about it because someone was lecturing me about contain vs map control.

Protoss does not have the option to control the map as much as T and Z. And even the current ways we have which might give us some map control feels so committing because our army composition must rely so much on aoe. Without aoe protoss feels so weak.

Seriously I dont mind seeing colosseus and storm getting nerfed and gateway units being buffed in some ways. I dont like the "get aoe or die".

In PvT we almost always have to rush to aoe (colosseus or HT) to be able to withstand the midgame terran MMM stim +1 pushes and multipronged attacks.

In PvZ aoe is less dominant these days because Z players rely so much on roaches and stalkers + immortals + sentry are good against roaches. But the Z players who figure out that zerglings do manage pretty well against that composition are giving P players a run for their money. In HOTS the swarm host will make it even more important for P to get aoe units.

09/08/2012 16:25Posted by Nabu

I think you are confusing me with someone else. I never spoke to you.

Yea, sorry about that.

09/08/2012 16:25Posted by Nabu

You should not be using the word "punish" as freely as you do. An intelligent opponent will not pull whole his army back from a contain just because a P warped in 4-6 zealots. Secondly Z and T have almost always some units at their bases because they build there units from there bases and the units have to travel from the bases to the rest of the map. They dont have warpgate technology. A P player who just warped in the middle of the map and who just got dropped are pretty much getting his !@# kicked in his main base.

A terran player that is outside of your base with a threathening enough army that you cant move out is rallying his reinforcements there to be able to continue with that.

A round of warped in zealots is quite hard to deal with due to the fact that
1. The terrans units that are rallied are spread out, and it will take some time for him to gather enough of them to defend against a warp in, which might give you enough time to warp in again or deal enough damage for it to be cost effective.
2. Chargelots are very effective in small battles.
3. Terrans options for static defense are quite lacking.

By the use of a warp prism you will get scv kills and delay mining quite easily, even just by dropping zealots into his mineral line. The warp prism is a very underused unit at our level of play even if its pretty darn effective.

08/08/2012 11:52Posted by Obyrith

Blizzard are pretty clearly trying to move the game away from short, one and two base timings because they lower the skill ceiling. The early game is supposed to be a time of scouting and small engagements with basic units where the players try to figure out the other's build. None of the races need more rush options, they need options which favor long-term planning and reactive play.

Actually looking at the interview with Dustin Browder it seems that Blizzard is pretty fond of player using cheese rushes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1uK_Akpq_8&feature=player_detailpage#t=395s

09/08/2012 12:02Posted by Nabu

Using gateway units against terran requires a great amount of micro. Even progamers must use so much apm on microing that their macro suffers. For example next time you see a programer macroing stalkers against marines then look at their resources.

The game isn't balanced around making everything equally easy, it's balanced around GM-level tournament play. Playing defensively is always going to require less effort, so if you want map control you're going to have to devote APM to it. I'd suggest that instead of complaining about how difficult particular strategies are, you try to enjoy the process of learning to execute them more effectively.

09/08/2012 16:25Posted by Nabu

In HOTS the swarm host will make it even more important for P to get aoe units.

Or you could use force-fields like the Protoss in the HotS battle report does.

09/08/2012 19:50Posted by Marble

Actually looking at the interview with Dustin Browder it seems that Blizzard is pretty fond of player using cheese rushes

The game he described was memorable because someone did something creative and unusual that worked because of how unexpected it was. He's not expressing admiration for a standard proxy 2-rax.

09/08/2012 19:25Posted by Turha

I think you are confusing me with someone else. I never spoke to you.

Yea, sorry about that.

You should not be using the word "punish" as freely as you do. An intelligent opponent will not pull whole his army back from a contain just because a P warped in 4-6 zealots. Secondly Z and T have almost always some units at their bases because they build there units from there bases and the units have to travel from the bases to the rest of the map. They dont have warpgate technology. A P player who just warped in the middle of the map and who just got dropped are pretty much getting his !@# kicked in his main base.

A terran player that is outside of your base with a threathening enough army that you cant move out is rallying his reinforcements there to be able to continue with that.

A round of warped in zealots is quite hard to deal with due to the fact that
1. The terrans units that are rallied are spread out, and it will take some time for him to gather enough of them to defend against a warp in, which might give you enough time to warp in again or deal enough damage for it to be cost effective.
2. Chargelots are very effective in small battles.
3. Terrans options for static defense are quite lacking.

By the use of a warp prism you will get scv kills and delay mining quite easily, even just by dropping zealots into his mineral line. The warp prism is a very underused unit at our level of play even if its pretty darn effective.

1. Terrans rally their troops in groups. That is terran 101. How many proper terran players who put the rally point of their barracks in front of opponent base, have you seen?
2. You assume too much. You assume that every P player have chargelots.
3. Only mech terran strategies require static defenses because the infantry centric strategies offer great mobility and great firepower in small numbers. They dont really need static defenses before getting to endgame 3+ expansions.

Exactly! Warp prism drop delays mining time! What will the oracle then offer other than a more fancy way of delaying the mining time?
The amount of gas going into getting it and the lack of aoe because of that by the 10th minut will hurt the protoss more.

Using gateway units against terran requires a great amount of micro. Even progamers must use so much apm on microing that their macro suffers. For example next time you see a programer macroing stalkers against marines then look at their resources.

The game isn't balanced around making everything equally easy, it's balanced around GM-level tournament play. Playing defensively is always going to require less effort, so if you want map control you're going to have to devote APM to it. I'd suggest that instead of complaining about how difficult particular strategies are, you try to enjoy the process of learning to execute them more effectively.

In HOTS the swarm host will make it even more important for P to get aoe units.

Or you could use force-fields like the Protoss in the HotS battle report does.

I dont care about people playing the game 8-10hours+ a day. This game wont be !@#$ without all us here playing it and watching it being played. I dont get why so many players devalue the casual player. We make this game not the pros.

Even Blizzard aknowledges the casual players. Just go look at the latest "Call to action". They describe in which level of play the balance problems exist and they aknowledge that balance should exist at multiple levels.

I want every race to have the proper tools (units and abilities) to be able to fight in the different phases of the game.

And dont lecture me about stalker micro. If a pro who devote his whole day to the game and to keeping his money really really really low is getting to 800minerals while microing a stalker how will a casual player fare? T and Z players can a-move and go back to their bases and macro - 30 sec later they move out again with a bigger force.

Forcefields require energy which will eventually get depleted. Forcefields are a delaying tactic. It delays the attack until the proper response is initiated which brings me back to "get aoe or die".

I dont care about people playing the game 8-10hours+ a day. This game wont be !@#$ without all us here playing it and watching it being played. I dont get why so many players devalue the casual player. We make this game not the pros.

Even Blizzard acknowledges the casual players. Just go look at the latest "Call to action". They describe in which level of play the balance problems exist and they acknowledge that balance should exist at multiple levels.

To an extent yes, but I think you're being selfish. You must remember that this is people careers we are talking about, and you can say all you like about how gaming isn't a proper career or what not (I'm just assuming this may be a potential response) but the fact is that it is there lively hood. I mean their success can depend on the decisions blizzard make regarding balance, which is almost totally out of their hands at the end of the day.

Casuals are important I guess... but if you are casual then maybe you should except that the game should be balanced far more favorably towards the pro-scene, half the time in leagues such as Platinum and Silver (my self) balance actually has very little effect, for example when I dabble in Terran occasionally because I find it fun TvZ is by far my best match up and TvT the worst but at the pro-scene? It's a totally different story with the exception of Taeja it seems.

I believe Destiny got into Diamond building only Queens, and that was when they had 3 range! It's all about mechanics at our level. And on a final note, if it's balanced at the top it is very likely it's balanced at the bottom, you just messed up if you lost whether it be your macro slipped, or you got caught by a cheese (happens to us all and not really our fault I guess but they have responses!) or maybe you just made a bad decision leading to a horrible engagement, this very mistake happened to me only a few minutes ago ^_^

Just my opinions,

-DarK