Topic
MineralZ Evolution sells stats, says Blizzard consents
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The past few weeks author of MineralZ Evolution has been selling in-game stats for his map. He stopped it for a few days, but today has resumed his sale ad on his forums:
http://mineralzevolution.space-forums.net/buy-levels-and-skins-t37.html Once he posted it, I immediately replied to him again that it's against Blizzard terms and blah blah. I've earlied linked him the Blizzard legal FAQ which states map authors can make money with their maps, I've told him of the -Mafia- case where DarkRevenant got a phonecall from Blizzard about donor rewards, etc. No surprise, he deleted my message in that thread, but what surprised me was his response in private message. He says: "Maybe i have the consentement now". So, he's implying Blizzard is consenting to sale of in-game rewards. He could be lying, of course, to get me to stop bothering him. Obviously, I cannot know. Is Blizzard allowing map authors to set up pay2win schemes, or what's going on? |
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Edited by Lamarq on 10/09/12 13:48 (BST)
Might be you're right and Blizzard will allow it and change their policy. The likelyhood is high, since the overall map quality and custom game experience has been rather low and they'd be willing to do more now.
So if you wanna change blizzard policies you should show support instead of calling that guy out, Blizzard might change their policies this way. I think there are many new possibilities with the arcade interface now. |
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Actually, I strongly oppose any pay2win scheme where you gain in-game performance by paying real money. Especially when gaining the same performance through legitimate way is subsequently made pretty much impossible.
If Blizzard does allow this, I want to know about it before I play a map. I'm not going to waste my time playing maps that have been designed so that players cannot perform properly unless they pay. |
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Edited by Lamarq on 10/09/12 14:59 (BST)
pay2win or pay4feautures also?
Having been a mapper for over 8 years in starcraft and warcraft now i can say that you often really invest a lot of time and energy in maps, i dont think people get it. I'm talking 3-6 hours a day for 4-24 months. So that is why I had the urge to !@#$% slap you right now for being a little whiny ^-*. All the smaller game companies start to use this pay for ingame stuff, instead of for the actual game. It works. If some maps do it too much, people will play it less, this is how a market works.It will regulate itself. We are moving the real world system into starcraft. That you're a little whiny punk who doesn't want that mappers get anything for the effort what so ever is your problem, and its sickening. You'd be okay with it as game companies did it, they have to get paid right?. But not here. Because they dont deserve it right? Its not a real game right? If real unbalance happens, people wont play it, simple as that. So its not a balance issue. Its a idealistic issue where you dont think mappers deserve it. You feel the need to call that guy out as if hes a criminal. Yes, its not allowed right now, but why play wannabe policemen? Policies can be changed and I hope they will. For the sake of the custom games and the mappers. They need it. They deserve it. Edit: Just to clarify. If a mapper gives out clear overpowered buffs, instead of new features. The mapper should shoot himself in the leg in my opinion. Thats not how one should incorporate pay4stuff. It should be via different features, but not by simply overpowering stuff. Else they'd be fools.But that would be their thing. |
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Map makers know what they are getting into when they start creating a map. It's their decision to start all that hard work, no one is forcing them to do it and they can stop any time they want. If they realy wanted money why are they wasting their time with the editor?
BATTLE.NET TERMS OF USE: |
Yes, the free2play genre actually works, but in practice it ends up more expensive to the top players than the subscription based games. So, you could say that high end players are paying for the newbies too. These games usually contain elements that are really annoying to do which you can skip for a mere euro, all the f2p mmo's I've tried have included some quests that require 30 hours of grinding or 1 euro payment. It works because the player thinks it's worth it to save that 30 hours of grind, but it's a fallacy and a scam. Just because it works doesn't make it right. I won't be playing such games even if you are. (Btw, in MineralZ Evolution, for mere 8 euros you were getting maximum in-game performance. The same stats you would normally need at least a hundred hours of playing to get, in practice more like several hundred hours because not every game goes perfectly)
Having to pay or authors getting rewarded isn't the issue. The issue is about treating players in fair and equal manner. I never want to play a game where someone is performing better just because he paid extra. That just doesn't fit multiplayer games in my opinion.
If the rules aren't enforced, why do they exist in the first place? I hate nothing more than an authority using their power as they wish and justifying it with rules, but only applying the rules when they see fit. Either it's allowed or it isn't allowed, and Blizzard needs to act accordingly. It's their right, but it's also their responsibility. |
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Edited by Lamarq on 11/09/12 04:22 (BST)
Map makers know what they are getting into when they start creating a map. It's their decision to start all that hard work, no one is forcing them to do it and they can stop any time they want. If they realy wanted money why are they wasting their time with the editor?BATTLE.NET TERMS OF USE: I said this: Yes, its not allowed right now, but why play wannabe policemen? Policies can be changed and I hope they will. I don't give a flying F about what the current rules are you sheep. If the rules aren't enforced, why do they exist in the first place? Because your whining directly stopped him from getting money. Imagine he was an apple farmer, but he hasn't got a license permit. He sells a few to some anyways. You call him out. You are right, he can't do that. But it didn't damage you. You'd be a snitch. No way how you put it, a filthy little snitch who is absolutely right. But still a snitch. But if everyone did the 'bad' thing, why have the rules?Why enforce it stronger? If everyone did it, then why not change the rules i say. Starting to do something has a stronger impact on blizzard than making a thread about it. If we wanna change it, then start doing it until they just say 'well, guess we outta do it'. If all map makers did it tomorrow, they would absolutely start to allow it. Else custom games would die. That simple. And about this: Having to pay or authors getting rewarded isn't the issue. The issue is about treating players in fair and equal manner. I never want to play a game where someone is performing better just because he paid extra. That just doesn't fit multiplayer games in my opinion. I absolutely get you. No really, I don't like it either. Pay2win is dumb to do, probably wouldn't play a game like that. But its not my problem. There will probably be a similar game by a guy he didnt do it. Who only made pay4features. Thats the way to go in my opinion. Pay4features. Not to many, but neither few. Just like good game balance, you have to find the balance in it, else people will not play the game with too much pay4'stuff'. Fact is sc2 custom games are nearly abandoned compared to how wc3 and sc1 was right now. If this makes people start doing more, then let them do it. The pay4game idea was abandoned by them as it seems, then let them make another system. They could take custom games to a whole nother level of indie games style if they tried, and it could benefit us greatly. Aswell as the mappers. My point is. I don't like what the guy did either, but by this whole finger pointing thing you're destroying future possibilities for the custom game genre. You shouldn't hold back, there is nothing to hold back from, the custom game is the drains, you save nothing by continuing with this current system. |
It made the time I had spent to gain those maximum stats legitimately absolutely worthless. Or rather, it put a real world money value on all those hours. I have spent hundreds of hours playing the map and if you go check the bnet chat for the map, you see 99% of the people only play to progress their stats. That 8 euro value for 400 hours of work is so low it's ridiculous. I pay more for my lunch most of the days! Would you work 400 hours for one lunch? You see, once the money enters the equation, it tends to dominate. Most people no longer care if it's fun or not, they just want the stats. Put a price on it and they'll notice it's no longer worth it to play at all.
It's not that simple. But yes, it would force Blizzard to take action. However, they might just as well tell the map makers to remove such features or be removed. If all map makers decided to kill their maps unless they got to cripple them with in-game sales !@#$, I say it's better the whole custom game scene dies.
Future possibilities? If it's pay2win "future possibilities" I'm destroying, I'll just call it mission accomplished if it happens. That's exactly what my aim is. I absolutely don't want to see custom maps like that. If map makers want funding to work on a map, they should figure another way to do it, start a kickstarter or something and give out t-shirts to donators or whatever. |
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I don't like pay2win either. But didn't you listen? What if a second guy made a similar game without that?Or with only boosts in exp gain, instead of buying whole levels.
What I am saying is, that guy is doing it very wrong and yes, risks killing his game. What you're saying is, the map maker doesn't know how to make his map properly, I want blizzard to regulate his !@#. I wanted someone to regulate blizzard too!Remove AH and real money AH from diablo, but no. I am okay with the whole responsibility of game design going to the map maker. But you aren't. If I ever had the chance to insert pay features in a map of mine, it would only be visual features or some different balanced choices of units etc. Pay2Win is horrible. But shouldn't the mapmaker have the responsibility to make it work? Just like a real game company with a game? He is allowed to create balance, ideas, stories, terrain, art etc. in your mind, but he cant decide on pay4stuff as well, because.. what? That he did pay2win, instead pay4features just shows that hes stupid and one of the failings of his map. There are so many things you thrust mappers to decide, but just not this one thing. I'll say people may make working pay4feauteres without problem in balance. Its up to the mappers. Give them all the power and we will see more games.Better games. But some games will be sacrificed, like this one, games like his will be exposed of what they really are when they make dumb pay2win stuff. Thats just as big of a fail as failing to terrain properly or major balance fail etc. For me its the same category, his judgement was wrong and now less people should play it. |
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As a long time mapmaker, who also puts huge amount of time and effort into his maps, I dislike pay2win or pay4features.
I also believe in the free flow of knowledge, which is also why I keep my maps unlocked. I somewhat disrespect authors who lock their maps as others cannot learn from them and go on to make their own maps, contributing to the community even more, but at the end of the day it is the author's decision. Knowledge grows exponentially if you allow it to and it benefits us all. In this argument, I side with Verte. He is not being a "little whiny ^-*." He is speaking the truth. He has the balls to restrain himself and not get emotional too. As for rules, I don't care about the rules b.net has put in place. It's all about whether you can get away with it, but personally I'm not interested in breaking them - as I said I would never put a pay2win system in. |
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Edited by Lamarq on 12/09/12 01:09 (BST)
As a long time mapmaker, who also puts huge amount of time and effort into his maps, I dislike pay2win or pay4features. Thats just the difference between us. I lock my maps. And likely won't do otherwise. I also believe in the free flow of knowledge, but not in taking anothers map, change some, and upload it as their own. Would be a nightmare. he is being a little whiny !@#$% because he's just a consumer he says the chocolate he eats taste worse because the manufacturer has changed the ingredients.No need to call the police. Dont buy the chocolate if you dont want it. Give map makers power instead of restricting it. Just like how indiegames developer have power to create all sorts of games right now, its much harder than making a sc2 game. Why not use sc2 possibilities and make it alot bigger. I mean 100 times bigger. LoL is just pay4features, Bloodline champions too. It works. There are so many players, let us evolve. You can still do it freely if you want, noone is stopping you. But you are stopping others by not allowing it. If blizzard really would want to make mappers make money they could do like small advertisement pictures in the loading screen that would go to the mapper and fraction to blizzard. That way they don't have to pay, but all gain. Just remember, not all share your linux free world mentality, rewards like this will improve the system and games significantly. |
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Lamarq, you seem to have some misconceptions about the rights of the map maker. You're using tools developed by Blizzard, using assets provided by Blizzard, distributing on a network owned and managed by Blizzard, even the players are provided to you by Blizzard. You are only permitted to operate on Blizzard's terms, take it or leave it.
No map maker has the right to publish their own map in the first place, it's a privilege granted to you by Blizzard. As of such, they make the rules and you obey. If you don't like it, you are free to develop your own engine and make your own assets and work with your own publishing and distribution method. It has definitely worked for a lot of indie developers just like you said. |
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Edited by Lamarq on 12/09/12 03:47 (BST)
Lamarq, you seem to have some misconceptions about the rights of the map maker. You're using tools developed by Blizzard, using assets provided by Blizzard, distributing on a network owned and managed by Blizzard, even the players are provided to you by Blizzard. You are only permitted to operate on Blizzard's terms, take it or leave it. You take me for a fool you tool? Instead of actually engaging in my points, you're talking down and acting like a policeman again. Which is absolutely pretentiousness when we look at what i've said here: Yes, its not allowed right now, but why play wannabe policemen? Policies can be changed and I hope they will.
You'd be a snitch. No way how you put it, a filthy little snitch who is absolutely right. But still a snitch. I come in here telling you that I know how the current rules are, then I present reasons to why I think they should get changed and why you're damaging the future of custom games. Then you decide to retell what i already said. "It's their game, they can do what they want, their rules, you agreed to them" blablabla, let me puke in your face while you are at it. I already know this and you know the answer. Change the rules. I am talking about why they should change them. You should talk about why they shouldn't change them. Instead you say "those are the rules". GG dude, you won the nobel prize for good reasoning. What are you anyway?A consumer who doesn't want his little chocolate changed. You know there should be 10 times more and better custom games than there currently are. It is an utter fail atm. We could save it! Step by step! Continue to argue about what the rules are, instead what they should be. You'll have a good future it sheep society. |
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Well, Lamarq, you're resorting to name calling and your choice of reasoning involves building straw men, applying ad hominem and so on.
I've already stated my opinion: I believe that all players should be treated equally and all the players should have the same benefits for the same in-game effort. I believe the game should be a game and not something where you can gain progress by throwing in some cash you earned at work. For this reason, I believe selling in-game things indeed should be forbidden, just like it currently is. (Well, I'd like to see it taken further by removing the playerhandle api completely, so that maps would have to treat all players 100% anonymously, but that's a topic for another time.) Anyway, attitude alone doesn't bring the change. If you truly want to change the custom map scene, you yourself need to be the change you want to see. If you believe selling something is the right way, start doing so and challenge Blizzard in the public when they remove your map. Fight the fight, don't just talk about it. Your beliefs alone won't change the reality. |
I believe that all players should be treated equally and all the players should have the same benefits for the same in-game effort. I believe the game should be a game and not something where you can gain progress by throwing in some cash you earned at work. And I believe that all players that join should have equal strength, and that you shouldn't have privileges because you've played more earlier. So no farming for power, that i hate. I want it be based on skill, like sc2 itself, not an rpg-. So that is what i want. So should we enforce it? Should blizzard enforce it? NO. It is the choice for the mappers. As it should be the choice of the mappers to add pay4features and even pay2win. You want to control them because you believe they're too stupid to make a proper game with balance. For me there is no difference between them deciding on farming power, game balance, game design etc and pay4stuff. It is one and same thing for me. You want to control some of their decisions. That is why I think your opinion sucks. I don't want pay2win either!!!! But pay4features. But i dont wanna have farm4power either! But im not gonna force my opinion on them. I'll give them freedom. You won't. Anyway, attitude alone doesn't bring the change. If you truly want to change the custom map scene, you yourself need to be the change you want to see. If you believe selling something is the right way, start doing so and challenge Blizzard in the public when they remove your map. Fight the fight, don't just talk about it. Your beliefs alone won't change the reality. Excuse me? I said that here: Starting to do something has a stronger impact on blizzard than making a thread about it. If we wanna change it, then start doing it until they just say 'well, guess we outta do it'. Its like you forget what i say or dont read it. |
YES! Fully agree. Even if such a mechanism were desired by map authors, the bank files are a wrong way of doing it because it's not meant for it. The sc2 maps aren't designed for something like this, it indeed shouldn't be done. Should blizzard enforce it? NO. It is the choice for the mappers. Unfortunately, Blizzard has already taken steps to enforce this to the other direction. The bank files are designed to be like configuration system, but the maps are using it for generic secure persistence storage. Once players figured out they could edit the bank files, Blizzard added the (easily circumventable) signature system on the banks. This is Blizzard attempting to enforce the issue towards progress-grinding maps and whatnot. Further, when the signature calculation method was reverse engineered, Blizzard gave up and provided mappers the player handle API to let them govern the maps themselves. I haven't ever seen Blizzard explain the reason for introducing this API, but it's obvious. It only exists to differentiate between players, treat them in unequal fashion based on a criteria defined outside of the game. This sucks and shouldn't exist, yet Blizzard added such a highly controversial mechanism and isn't responding to criticism about it. It's obvious that this is Blizzard's policy in the matter. You want to control them because you believe they're too stupid to make a proper game with balance. Please take a few more minutes writing your responses to not resort to things like this. Ad hominem, an argument against a person, only serves to derail the discussion away from the subject. I'm not here to discuss myself and what I want, I'm here to discuss MineralZ Evolution and in-game sale of stats. I'm not going to discuss MineralZ Evolution author's ability to do game design decisions, that has nothing to do with this.
Unfortunately, I don't think Fredxor is fighting this because he believes in it. No, he's trying to lie and deceive me about his actions, he's silencing critique on his own forums deleting anyone who says anything negative about the sales, etc. And twice now, he's ducked and removed the sales ads without explaining it. Actually, if he hadn't deleted my message on his forums this would've never escalated this far. I would've just let him know what I think about what he's doing and that's it. However, he wasn't willing to let people on his forums know he's breaking the rules, he wasn't going to defend himself publicly. He just wanted some cash, acting out of greed and then pretending it was somehow for the best of the game too. If he had the balls to sell the stats openly without resorting to trickery and deceit, without having to silence his opponents, then I could respect his decision. Then I could support his fight while disagreeing with it. But that's not what's going on here. |
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Edited by Kami on 13/09/12 04:57 (BST)
YES! Fully agree. Even if such a mechanism were desired by map authors, the bank files are a wrong way of doing it because it's not meant for it. The sc2 maps aren't designed for something like this, it indeed shouldn't be done. Are you serious? I do agree that starting with an advantage for playing before is stupid.. in PvP games, and i don't know any successful PvP maps where you can start with an advantage, but i don't see what the problem is in PvE, not to mention that bank files are also used to save high scores and similar stats. "Grinding" is such a stupid term, you don't enjoy the game you don't freaking play it, mappers don't want to design the game based on your stupid vision of what a game should be like, a mapper will design a map that he enjoys not you. A lot of people enjoy working for stats, achievements, rewards. The sc2 maps aren't designed for something like this, it indeed shouldn't be done Bull!@#$, who are you to say what the maps are designed for? |
I base my opinion on the technical design of bank files. Facts:
Because of this, I conclude the bank files are suitable for:
However, it isn't suitable for any sort of multiplayer environment where the player isn't supposed to be able to modify contents of the bankfile. Since Blizzard doesn't have a way to detect bank file cheating, they cannot enforce any rules against cheating either. Sure, many maps do use bank files to store multiplayer progress, even though doing so isn't secure or reliable. However, they tend to be easy to alter and oftentimes the player with high stats can totally ruin the experience for others. Also, MineralZ Evolution author handles support requests from people complaining about bank file resets by simply deleting the messages from his forums. I suppose he doesn't want anyone to know the stats can reset anytime. I think there even are exploits to destroy other people's bank files by sending a too large bankfile to others, effectively wiping other people's progress. Due to these technical reasons, I say the map system isn't designed for progress to be stored. |
BATTLE.NET TERMS OF USE: This is the truth. Whatever your opinions are, a direct money flow from the player to the map maker will not happen. If anything, it will go through an in-game service where Blizzard will ask for a fee, similar to D3's real money auction house. Might be you're right and Blizzard will allow it and change their policy. The likelyhood is high, since the overall map quality and custom game experience has been rather low and they'd be willing to do more now. Blizzard never changes its policy easily, and that's not what Verte was on. Blizzard does not condone money making over their products. Verte did the right thing by calling out the MineralZ author; being warned by a player is a lot better than having the legal department of a billion dollar company on your rear end. |
