Topic Guide: How to apply & deal with Pressure (PvT)
Edited by PapaToss on 30/11/10 16:35 (GMT)
Hello everyone - this is Papa Toss here with yet another guide - this time trying for the first time to explain stuff on a wider scale, rather than a specific strategy. Basically this is my attempt at helping newer players aswell, as many players found it difficult to incorporate the strategies in my guides in their plays, if their gameplay was not strong enough (Bronze, Silver etc.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHEvfRyGhqQ <- How to apply pressure in PvT, and how to deal with pressure in PvT. Doing the first is, believe it or not, very beneficial when it comes to the second. At any rate, I tried to cover the basics of the PvT earlygame, and how you can utilize your units to a good extent, and punish Terran players for any mistakes they do. I was at this point 2420 Diamond Protoss or so, I believe my opponent was 2400 Terran, but It's very possible he was anywhere between 2200 and 2400. Don't kill me if I'm wrong.
Fairly big wall of text below
I'm not going to type a big wall of text this time (I know, so not like me) because I'm very tired. Anyways, I've made a few guides before. How to use the "Pylo Trick" (a move most conveniently applicable while doing a 2Gate build in PvZ), and how to use Phoenixes/Stargate in PvT - as well as how to 1Gate FE in PvT (wow, that's alot of PvT with this.)
Anyways, some people in lower leagues have been telling me something in the lines of "I like your videos, but It's very hard to use X strategy effectively, I don't think my attribute Y is sufficient enough for it. Why don't you make any videos more beginner/lower tier player friendly?" and basically, the strategies were probably alot easier to use for Platinum/Diamond players - than they were for people in lower leagues.
So I was thinking for a while what to talk about to help the lower league players aswell - and I decided to go back to the basics in PvT - How to be aggressive, and how to deal with aggression. I think this game demonstrates them both pretty well, which is why I picked it. (please do not scream at my opponent for 'raging', everyone has a bad day at times.)
I tried to make this video more "covering" - like cover the basic aspects of the early game when it comes to aggressive play (being a defensive player is not neccessarily bad, but I love aggressive play and I would suggest it as I find it very beneficial.) Thus, naturally, It's pretty new to me (as I had to explain stuff in an entirely different way). I apologize if I explained something poorly, or if the video is simply not good enough. In this case, just tell me about it, and I'll try to fix it if It's fixable. Anyways, I hope you can all benefit from this,
Edited by PapaToss on 30/11/10 17:07 (GMT)
Shukran: I explain this in the vid (or...? Did I miss it out completely?)
In case I didnt - I attack the supply depo for the lulz (why not? :D) If he's got 1 marine there, because It never harms to do it. I run back before he shoots away my shield, and I regenerate. And then I scout up the ramp constantly to see what's up, and if he applies no pressure whatsoever the game takes an entirely different course than in this video - applying "early" pressure is no longer a convenient option without commiting to it, but alot of other options open up (not covered in the video however).
But the general idea is to, if you have the chance, run in and kill SCVs (if you're really lucky, his Barracks will be lifted or Supply Depo lowered, obviously chances are against you but if they're not, just check out what you can see and fall back, no harm done, no harm received - maybe some damage dealt to supply depo) or just scout then fall back if It's not possible. The video also covers how to deal with early aggression (get 2 zealots and scout your frontlines to see if there's any bunkers) - this gives you extra forces to deal with any really early attack or bunker rush, which is what the video focuses on. Again, the video was focusing on very early aggression - how to use it, and how to counter it. When it can be used, and when it cannot be used. I also explained a few other things as the game carried on, but that was the main focus. I hope this was a sufficient answer,
Seaswift: I'll try to watch that replay when I have time sometime this week.
I actually spoke for quite a while with our very own PapaToss about how some of guides he provides are for more experienced players and that the lower leaguers like me would screw up hard if they tried to mimic it. But, there's one good point he offered - it can give us ideas what we can experiment with, and perhaps inspire us to think of about how to improve our own gameplay.
So while the lower leaguers can struggle with 100% execution of this, it is still an example of how we can play, if we just experiment and try out new stuff. I personally like to experiment outside of leagues, where I also learn most of the new stuff I'm trying to grasp (which is reason I didn't play 1v1 ladder in a while actually and why i have so little 1v1 ladder matches played); it works better for me that way.
Keep bringing all these ideas, PapaToss.
En Taro Fenix
Edited by Ifrit on 30/11/10 20:19 (GMT)
Toss early pressure vs. Terran works as long as there is no Concussive Shell researched. Stim can even be used against T with constantly moving forward especially with Zealots to provoke Stim usage and backing off the moment it is used. Doing this several times severely weakens the T army overall. This of course changes by the time Medivacs enter the battlefield.
Great dude!! Just had to play one game. Walked over cross position on metalopolis with a zealot, started hacking about when it nearly died a stalker came over. shooting the last surviving marine (already killed 2 and 1 SCV) then the 2nd stalker came in and he just quit xD
Edited by Marcus on 30/11/10 21:04 (GMT)
Yeah, after seeing PapaToss (Phoenix guide) I realized how I could apply more pressure with the early Zaelot. Even, if the Zaelot is forced to run home it can be beneficial. You can also back off with the Probe before the first Marine is ready, when the Zaelot attacks you could send the probe with it and try to get more intelligence. I practice this against very hard AI, which I feel is emulating quite standard Terran strategy and it worked out decently. Even swapping Robo for Stargate and produce a Void Ray, since Void Ray punishes more Marauder heavy push. I still don't win every game, but I think I'm slowly learning.
I haven't tried being too much aggressive with my early units, so this might be an area to explore. One reason for not applying pressure is that I feel my macro really slips or the enemy catches my units while I'm doing basic macro orders. The units themselves also aren't really that good counter for basic Terran grunts. However as PapaToss shows it's better to try to apply some sort of pressure than to relay on camping and FF the ramp.
Thanks for doing these videos, your help is appreciated.
SeaSwift: Ok, I've watched your replay. Now, I don't mean to "smash" your play - but you had about 900 pooled up minerals by the time he arrived. In theory, that couldve been 9 extra Zealots. That wouldve made a HUGE difference. In reality, It would have had to be distributed amongst production buildings etc. and 9 extra zealots is unrealistic - but surely you could have had more defenses.
However, on a different topic, you decided to spam alot of Zealots to counter the marine proxyrax you saw coming. Why alot of Zealots? It's true that in very low numbers, Zealots are respectable counters against marines - but that only goes before they reach a good mass (and he had a good mass) - If you're really planing to go with Zealots, you shouldve attacked his marines where they were before they reached that mass (e.g. engaged his proxy).
I wouldnt suggest this however. I would prefer Stalkers. Shortly, I will explain why. Let's first talk about your build order.
You build an Assimilator and THEN a Gateway, then you cancel the assimilator. I'm not sure if it was a misclick or whatever, but I wouldnt suggest ever, EVER building an assimilator before the Gateway. It's too risky, and not rewarding enough. That early you really need your workers on minerals. Do a normal build order instead, open with 9 Pylon -> 13Gate (or 12 if you didnt chrono probes) -> assimilator ASAP -> 2nd Pylon ASAP -> Cybercore ASAP.
It's not really harder than that. And you want that early stalker out. Let's now talk about Stalker VS Marine.
It's true that Marines can stack up way easier, and they outright crush Stalkers in a toe-to-toe combat situation. But you have to consider each units attributes, their attributes - what are they good at? What can you take to your advantage? I'm not sure if you're aware of this - but from now on you will be - Stalkers have 1 more range than Marines. This means you can kite them to a certain extent. Say there's 4 marines VS 1 Stalker. You can beat them - because you can "kite" them. If you kite 1 marine with 1 stalker, that one marine will only get ONE single shot off per Stalker shot, if you kite him - so his extra attack speed becomes obsolete. This way you can utilize your stalker.
I would also like to remind you that Gateway units are simply not as efficient as Barracks units once Barracks units reach a decent mass (as explained earlier in this post - Marines will become a force to be reckoned with. I'm sure you noticed this) - however building up Zealots & Stalkers early isnt very tough, and they can be really effective if handled well. It depends on your army composition, and how you handle it. Just try to go on the offensive ASAP against his Proxy, and attack them while they're in low numbers. Abuse the fact that you can kite with your stalkers and that It's very effective in low numbers (it wont be very effective once they're at your ramp in a critical mass). Abuse the fact that when they're in low numbers, your Zealots will be able to land their claws on them. Protoss has 2 strong points in the game versus Terran. People say Protoss has a terrible early-game. This is partially true - the Barracks units are very, very deadly against Protoss's gateway units. However, that's only when they reach a decent mass. The mass doesnt have to be very big for them to become costeffective, but the nature of "few, but costly units" means we can get higher cost value of units out faster, and micro them effectively when they're again - in very low mass. The stalkers can be utilized fully, and so can the Zealots. As a result of this, we're very strong in the SUPER early stage of the game. When there's say, 1 Zealot VS 2 Marines, or 1 Zealot 1 Stalker VS 4/5 marines. We're also very strong when we have our huge ball of doom worked up with all tech unlocked, but that ofcourse wasnt really an option in this specific game. So to answer your question fast:
*Improve your build orders a bit, they're very flawed. 1 Gateway -> Cyber is very much sufficient to deal with ProxyRax, Zealots are so easily abusable because their weaknesses are so easy to take advantage of once you have a decent number of marines.
*Don't underestimate aggression - put more pressure. Don't idle until you're in your weak period of the game and he's in his strong period of the game. Kite with stalkers, attack, lose your shields and then fall back - maintain units, but kill his! Take every advantage you can get.
Jaycee & Teoita: No problem, everything for my children (It's funny because my account is 'Papa' Toss.) Har har har...
BabyToss: My true child, my very own Baby Toss... I will :P
Ifrit: You are correct. That is also demonstrated quite alot in my other video (1 Gate FE) - Stim does have a drawback after all, It's a double-edged blade. It can be abused, even if you can't outright gain advantage of it - you can lessen its effects by playing smart, and offensive.
deBats: Great :)
Marcus: As explained in the previous post directed towards SeaSwift - Our units can be very powerful against Barracks units, however during a very brief time. After that, it will go straight downwards until we have our tech. It's a good thing to try to grasp that little Time Window, and I hope you will succeed in doing so. I prefer using the Probe for mining nowadays but I attacked with it like you said before, and It can be pretty beneficial to do that aswell - Marines are relatively weak against Probes, because, they're faster. Also, you still havent added me to MSN or gotten back to me after our chat, I'd like to remind you to do that, It would be nice to have a chat with you. Unless you have no interest anymore, of course.
Equidox: I'm glad you appreciate my help. You'll simply have to prioritize!
Unless you have no interest anymore, of course.
I do but it would appear that I have some problems finding you through MSN contacts. I might misspelled the name you gave or I might be doing something else I shouldn't. I'll contact you the next time I see you on-line.
Though I've lost quite a few games vs. Zerg lately, my last match was against Terran that tried to push with bio-ball. By applying early pressure I managed to delay his push and even forced him to pull some SCVs off the mining line, though I should have backed down once I've lost the momentum. Still, I had better economy and two Immortals extra when the actual push happened. The game was much easier then it would otherwise be.
I did discover that I have problems with panicking and being to rigid with my general plan so these two areas are another field to work on.
Edited by SeaSwift on 04/12/10 19:01 (GMT)
Smash my play as much as you like - as long as it helps me get better!
Thanks - I don't normally ever get Assimilator before Gateway. I forgot I had done that here, I don't know what I was thinking. When I saw no buildings in his base while building Cyber, I just panicked and threw up another Gateway, thinking super early pressure. Not sure why I panicked so much, it isn't very uncommon in PvT.
EDIT: I just played a game against a Terran who tried this on me again and ate him for breakfast thanks to your tips. Thank you PapaToss!