StarCraft® II

When making troops early is not enough...

Posts: 422
Lately, everything appears to be working against me.

Please imagine the following situation:

  • ZvP
  • The P goes Nexus fast expansion. The Zerg does the usual natural hatch, but then goes for baneling crush @low drone count.
  • The protoss steps up his probe count, but otherwise goes for a maximum of gateways as fast as he can afford them.
  • The zergal army arrives at the protoss wall.
  • All banelings impact on the wall, but fail to penetrate it. The choke zealot is destroyed, but replaced with a stalker before any zerglings can get through. Choke is good so only 1 zergling can attack the stalker at a time. The wall photon is intact and firing.
  • The protoss is ordering chronoboosted zealots in all of his many gateways while the zerg is busy trying to bite his way through the wall with zerglings.
  • What would you say is the outcome in this situation?

    Well, that is an easy one. Of course the Protoss is overrun by the zerglings and loses!

    Don't believe that? See here: http://drop.sc/374605
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    Posts: 433
    If you die to baneling busts it's because you miss forcefields or because you stopped macroing behind it. Your tone shows a very bad mindset. If you loose it's because you make mistakes. Find those mistakes and work on them. Nothing else matters.
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    Posts: 151
    That was the greediest nexus 1st i have ever seen in my entire life.
    You're supposed to SCOUT with the probe building the first pylon when going nexus first... Then if you're a good player you will hide away the probe near his 3rd/4th to look if he's expanding to his 3rd around 5:00 - 5:30. If he's not, build two additional cannons at your wall and make sure you have at least ONE sentry.
    By 7:30 when he attacked you, you could have had 3 cannons and a sentry to force field.

    Also, don't get the second pylon before forge. Go pylon > nexus > forge > gateway > pylon unless you want to lose to pressure every single time.
    Edited by Gvhjk on 23/02/2014 19:22 GMT
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    Posts: 4
    Actually the zerg on 3 bases manages (in masters though) to sneak out an attack with speedlings/banelings crushing down your pylon-wall around 6:30 - a few moments before you get the cyber core from a FFE. The only real way you can scout it is the drone count at his third/nat. Pretty hard !@#$ to scout/do something about with FFE.

    Due that game he posted isn't the case.. get forcefields dummy :D
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 422
    Nice responses. Unfortunately neither of them has anything to do with what I wrote. Describing what you believe to be weaknesses in my game is irrelevant regardless of whether you are right or not when as unrelated with the matter in question as in this case. For instance, if I had followed Gvhjk's advice I would have had a weaker econ (sending out a scouting probe @9 costs several 100 minerals over the course of the subsequent minutes), but not achieved anything. Having a weaker tech would not have enabled me to train more troops faster, and even without that recon, I endeavored to get troops at the earliest opportunity possible after expanding. In other words, recon is only helpful if it allows you to make better decisions. In this particular case, I made lots of gateways and troops asap even without the recon, and early troops were what I needed against this rush, so sending off that probe would only have weakened me in this effort.

    I did manage to hold my wall against the banelings with my photon intact, and I was not greedily teching so I had no chance to get troops (rather the contrary). So either Nexus first is not a good move in general (that's why so many pros play it...), or I should have been able to hold my base nonetheless.
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 151
    24/02/2014 13:37Posted by DeathAndPain
    but not achieved anything
    you would've seen the lack of 3rd base and therefore been able to prepare properly by placing photon cannons.
    24/02/2014 13:37Posted by DeathAndPain
    recon is only helpful if it allows you to make better decisions. In this particular case, I made lots of gateways and troops asap even without the recon, and early troops were what I needed against this rush, so sending off that probe would only have weakened me in this effort.

    Then you're not supposed to go nexus first... -.- if you want to get a lot of units out early you go gateway expand. With nexus first or FFE you're going to have to defend with cannons and a couple of sentries. Just think about it, you're going to build a whole nexus and a forge before you even build a gateway. It delays your early units a lot and that means pushes like these are just going to kill you if you don't throw down another cannon or two, and trust me, two additional cannons are nothing compared to the zerg's lack of drones and 3rd base.

    Also, I believe his attack was delayed by around 30 seconds because he morphed the banelings at the watchtower instead of just outside your base and even then you couldn't hold it + the fact that you were cross-position on like the largest map in the map pool. In this specific game, had you pushed out 2-3 sentries instead of zealots and a stalker then maybe you could've just held the attack with a little luck and good building placement.

    24/02/2014 13:37Posted by DeathAndPain
    I did manage to hold my wall against the banelings with my photon intact, and I was not greedily teching so I had no chance to get troops (rather the contrary). So either Nexus first is not a good move in general (that's why so many pros play it...), or I should have been able to hold my base nonetheless.

    Not really, the zerg was just stupid and executed the build at a silver league level. He exploded all his banelings on the one zealot instead of the pylon closest to your ramp which would've just let him straight inside. But then he got in anyways because of your inability to block the entrance with a pylon for the whole 15 seconds it took him to kill the stalker.

    24/02/2014 13:37Posted by DeathAndPain
    Nice responses. Unfortunately neither of them has anything to do with what I wrote.

    Then what sort of replies are you looking for?

    24/02/2014 12:58Posted by Thias
    Actually the zerg on 3 bases manages (in masters though) to sneak out an attack with speedlings/banelings crushing down your pylon-wall around 6:30 - a few moments before you get the cyber core from a FFE


    Before you get the cyber core...? what? you get the cyber core when the gateway finishes at around 4:30.
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 422
    25/02/2014 00:21Posted by Gvhjk

    24/02/2014 13:37Posted by DeathAndPain
    Nice responses. Unfortunately neither of them has anything to do with what I wrote.

    Then what sort of replies are you looking for?

    The sort you just provided, thank you very much!

    I might add that this post originated from a big losing streak on my side, losing like 17/20. I think everybody experiences these now and then. Fortunately, the opposite also occurs at times. In this particular case my losing streak was so big that even though I am normally diamond, the system started matching me against gold and still considering the gold player "favored"!

    Well, I have refreshed my mind and made small modifications to my playstyle (not including the greedy opening :-D) and got back on track. It is just a pity that I could not get demoted, so I am left with even less a clue where I am standing than what the silly Blizzard obscurity ladder system provides anyway.
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 151
    25/02/2014 09:21Posted by DeathAndPain
    The sort you just provided, thank you very much!

    I might add that this post originated from a big losing streak on my side, losing like 17/20. I think everybody experiences these now and then. Fortunately, the opposite also occurs at times. In this particular case my losing streak was so big that even though I am normally diamond, the system started matching me against gold and still considering the gold player "favored"!

    Well, I have refreshed my mind and made small modifications to my playstyle (not including the greedy opening :-D) and got back on track. It is just a pity that I could not get demoted, so I am left with even less a clue where I am standing than what the silly Blizzard obscurity ladder system provides anyway.

    lol well glhf then ^^
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