Ghostcrawler Developer Blog: Raid Progress

We addressed our views on dungeon difficulty several weeks ago, and in the interim many players have asked for us to comment on raid difficulty.
I chose to use the word "progress" in the title for this blog quite intentionally. We think progression is the key to players having fun. When groups stop making progress, the members get frustrated. When individuals feel like they are stuck, that’s when they start to lose interest. I don’t think it strictly has to do with the flow of loot being shut off. A big part of it is the sense that as you climb up that mountain, you are getting closer and closer to the summit instead of just sliding back down to base camp at the end of each day.
Let’s consider two extremes. If you complete the raid content very quickly and have Sinestra on farm and everyone has acquired their best in slot items, then you’re probably ready to take a break from raiding. If you worked really hard to get to that point, as many of the current “finished” guilds did, then you’re probably pretty happy about resting until Firelands becomes available. However, if that break point happens too soon, too easily, for too many guilds, then the raiding game can feel empty. Players run out of content before they are ready to run out of content, if that makes sense. Now let’s consider the other extreme, where a guild just has no realistic chance of ever beating a boss. This can be particularly demoralizing if it’s the first boss, but it can happen at any time. That guild might not feel like they are making progress. Many guilds are willing to put in a few weeks trying to master a new encounter, but if it gets to the point where they are wiping for months, there’s a good chance they’ll start to see burnout and thinning ranks. The sweet spot in raid balance for us to hit is that everyone feels like they can still make progress. Content that is too hard or too easy doesn’t meet that goal.
Raid encounters, to some extent, nerf themselves. This is because every week, the raid members acquire more and more gear. Secondarily, the community acquires more and more knowledge and experience, which translates into better videos, strategy guides, or even UI mods, as well as just more players who have experienced the encounters firsthand. Each week that you are able to kill any bosses, your group’s gear improves overall, through Valor points if nothing else. When Firelands is available, everyone’s gear will quickly take a step up in quality. This will give you an even better chance to beat those bosses that are blocking you now. We wouldn’t be surprised to see some guilds try the first few Firelands bosses one night, while using the next night to go back to get the head and shoulders from Nef and Cho’gall in order to complete their set bonuses, that is until acquiring new set bonuses becomes feasible. On some bosses, though, better armor and weapons may not be enough because some mechanics just can’t easily be outgeared. To mitigate that problem, our tendency is to nerf content over time just to make sure a wide variety of players see it. The trailblazers get to see the fights before anyone else, but we don’t lock the dungeon door behind them.
Having said all of that, there are some encounters that still need adjustment. Heroic 10-player modes can often be the hardest to balance, because those groups just don’t have access to the sheer number of tools in one group that the larger raids have. You’ve probably seen some hotfixes go out recently and we might make more adjustments in 4.1. We’ll continue to monitor progress and make adjustments when we feel the time is right.
Overall, we are pretty happy with our current raid balance. Most guilds that are trying seem to be making some progress. On some realms, we’re seeing pickup groups for at least the earlier bosses, which seems appropriate for where we are in the content cycle. The Heroic versions are particularly challenging, though even in that case, there is a gradient with easier and very difficult bosses. For those of you who feel like you are stuck on progression, we’d like to hear more about why. Are you trying to PUG the encounters? Do you have a very casual guild with a lot of different players each night? Is the problem that you’re undergeared or that the mechanics are too unforgiving? What are the mechanics that are really hard for raid leadership to explain or even understand? Are your tanks exploding, or are your healers running out of mana, or are you failing the berserk timers? We have data on all of this, but it’s useful to hear it from your point of view as well. Remember, our goal is that you beat the fight because you understood the mechanics and executed your tanking, DPS, and healing around those constraints. If you’re just kind of powering through a boss ability or phase that you don’t really understand, then it’s going to be a lot harder for you. As always, feedback on which encounters you are enjoying and which ones you never want to see again is also appreciated, though we’ve gotten a lot of that already, and are designing your Firelands foes with that in mind.
P.S. I am as excited about the Firelands encounters as I am about the current ones. We can’t wait for you to wipe to them, er... see them.
Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer of World of Warcraft. He wipes to the elevator boss.

Sylvanas
Lightning's Blade
Anachronos
Dragonblight
Xavius
When it comes to raiding it's supposed to be hard, you are supposed to recognise skilled players on their gear as it is today.
Normal mode are for the average bloke at, or below average skill. If you want to pug raids you go to Baradin Hold. But please, dont ask Blizzard to lower the difficulty on the raids. In BC they we're about perfect. In wotlk, they were a joke but it looks like we're going in the right direction in Cataclysm again.
Mazrigos
Meeting new people .
Making new friends.
Discovering new potential guild members.
Could make a comparation on "Ok we.re 10 man we hardly killed halfus. Lets see how other tank/dps/healer do it , what tactic they use , where do they pull " and stuff like that.
There is plenty to learn from a succesful PuG .
Quel'Thalas
Ravenholdt
Nordrassil
We've been raiding for 11 weeks or so and are close to killing everything on normal 10 man, with just one and a half / two raids a week that last a few hours. So we're doing very good I think.
But the problems as I see/read/hear them from many people are:
- The encounters are brutal and very unforgiving, especially on 10 man modes. Even the earlier bosses, which should give you the feeling you are actually making progress, are pretty hard to learn because of the sheer amount of mechanics you need to grasp (see Omnotron for instance or the randomness of Halfus’ setup), which in turn makes it harder to get that ‘default nerf by better gear’ you speak of.
- The VP reward is extremely low if you look at the cost of the VP gear, so the incentive to wipe and learn is low aswell. The same goes for the daily hc’s, I haven’t been running them on both my healers for a while now because I just cba. I am not in favor of handing out epics at all. But there is something between that and this.
- You need to have a really stable and balanced team in order to be succesfull. Even with the immense amount of homogenization of class abilities that has been going on (which I am totally not in favor of btw due to the handing out of unique/signature abilities to other classes), this is hard to accomplish.
- Some classes are not in a good spot atm. I am posting as resto shaman who raids 10 mans in pretty much full epic that has a way better healing experience on his blue geared resto druid alt, even after the purification buff :’( But hey I’m no quitter and this is my main.
- Almost all the encounters seem to favor ranged classes, which limits your possibilities to make a succesfull raidsetup.
- Some roles are not in a good spot. Healing is very very stressfull (not hard, just very stressfull) atm and the only thing I still enjoy about it, is that it enables me to kill bosses with my guild.
- Having to raidlead these encounters, is extremely draining. There is so much going on at all times that I am constantly speaking on Vent while keeping an eye on timers, raidpositioning, healthbars, manabars, !%#@ on the floor, etc. etc. etc.
- Progressranks have become too important. The only interesting progression rank would be your bosskill/hour spent in instances ratio imo. Level the playing field and let the people who only raid once a week be able to have the sense that they are doing great aswell, instead of just the people who can actually manage to raid 5-6 nights a week.
- 12 encounters to learn from the get go would not have been too much in previous expensions. But it seems to me the amount of stuff that goes on has been at least twofolded. So yeah it’s a lot to take in and learn.
- The tactics and mechanics require a lot of finetuning in order to make it possible for your groupsetup to be successfull. That’s ok if you like puzzling with tactics, which I do. But it doesn’t seem to ever stop!
- It might seem I am contradicting my previous point, but it also seems like the amount of options you have to make a succesfull tactic are limited considering the unforgiving nature of the encounters.
- One ##!#up should not be a wipe. Yes, that’s what a battleres is for, sure thing, if someone lags out in a fire. But who’s gonna BR the entire raid if you are the only interrupter on your Nef platform and miss that first interrupt after the phasechange?
I could go on about raids, but there is a number of perhaps more serious problems with the game that relate to the raiding I would also like to address:
- People are not forced while leveling to use their class to it’s full potential, which is definately required for raids. So they are not learning their class.
- The order of Cataclysm gearing progression with normals, hc’s, raids and hc raids is very good imo. I skipped normals and went straight into hc’s in 329 gear. It was hell to heal them, while dps was doing 5-6k on average and tanks had 130k health and hardly any avoidance. Especially as resto shaman. But it felt good clearing them the first days of the expension. You know why? Because I was playing with people that knew how to play. Probably many of them better then myself. We made it up as we went along, that felt great. I have never seen groups capable of saving themselves out of impossible situations ever since. The hc groups went from great to awfull in a matter of weeks. ‘Baddies’ in their pvp gear to meet the ilvl requirements, the amount of abuse and namecalling, tanks already in godmode chainpulling multiple groups, etc. etc. I need aspirines after a hc run. Even with guildies. But this hints at a much more serious problem in the WoW playerbase, people are either socially handicapped or just !!!@##!s for the most part.
- There is not much to do outside of raiding in Cataclysm. I am so glad I am done with the reputation grinds on two characters. No more dailies for me! Questing has
Nordrassil
- The combination of lack of other stuff to do and the raids being very hard to start with, makes this a pretty lethal combination. People are quitting. The amount of ‘I quit’ threads on forums is astounding. Sure, in the past we didnt have those forums or many players hadn’t found their way to them. But this makes me think it’s a fact people are actually quitting.
- The 10/25 man thing is not working out for me. Sure I agree that it’s not good to force people to run both 10 and 25 man every single week. But just being able to do one of them really limits the chances of meeting other people in pugs. Running Naxx, Ulduar and ToC 25 pugs is where I found most of my guildies. Isn’t the fact that we don’t have to do normal and hc versions of each raid each week a huge improvement from some of the past tiers? I think so. Let the people that want to raid 10 mans also do an occassional 25 man pug on their mains.
- It seems guilds are dying and spawning in a much higher frequency then I have ever witnessed before. This also hints at an underlying problem (leading raiding guilds is not a lot of fun either atm perhaps?) but it mostly leads to impossible recruitment.
- The stats are completely ridiculous. And harder to comprehend for casuals who don’t like theorycrafting every aspect of their class. And what has Mastery really added, besides something more to concern yourself with. And I am also quite sure we have plenty of abilities already. My bars were full in Vanilla tbh. Half of my abilities isn’t even on bars atm I think.
- Talent trees were a joke in Vanilla, so was the gear, sure. But the idea of not having cookie cutter builds didnt really work out imo. These talenttrees are just too small/short for actual tuning, you gotta have 95% of certain talents if you want to raid.
Again, I could go on. But I’ll sum it up. The game is broken, but it can be repaired partially. The community however is broken beyond repair. I will stick it out till you shut my server though probably because I am hooked.
Nordrassil
I do however feel that heroic raids should have those kind of encounters. Will I ever see Sinestra? Probably not till the end of this expansion, if that. Do I care? Yes, I definately want to kill every boss you come up with. But not at the cost of my guild, sleep, social life etc.
Nordrassil
Darksorrow
If you are not extremely obsessed with this game and its details in abilities and specs and rotations - and do extensive research on external sites before playing - there is not much fun to be had at level85 anymore. And I cant see how making 90% of the playerbase wait 3-4 months for endgame content to be playable due to gear-progression is good gamedesign?? I wish normal raids were for "normal" players - and hardmode was for raiders. And just make 1-2 bosses tuned for Paragon-type players.
Mazrigos
Nordrassil
Anachronos
Draenor
Twilight's Hammer
Anachronos
Kazzak
Eldre'Thalas
I tried hard to get “the best items” to go on raids but ones I was there i was feeling myself useless after few minutes…. Waiting my mana to regen to cast a spell after few seconds, I was like playing another character and not a discipline class how was meaning for me the speed of decisions and not waiting for mana… I loved my class because the challenge was in the speed, reflection , choices of spells, now it is only, “wait for mana and cast the cheapest one, or too… it is not a pleasure, I’m not enjoying the game anymore, sorry for that , I’m thinking about quitting the game, seriously it is not a challenge to wait for mana regen I’m not enjoying it.
When I was leveling up and having new better items, I was running more out of mana oO is this it the reward of having better equipments?
Anyway, good luck guys,
Majda
Darkspear
Darksorrow
Thunderhorn
Daggerspine
Players differ. Some play better, some play worse. There any different types of guilds - semi, hard etc, so that everyone could find a place for himself. What the problem is right now, on my server, where the population is really low, is the lack of ppl! Even to do BH, its really hard right now. Less ppl play on our server than they used to during Wotlk.
So based on that, it is also hard to find good players, to could activly play and sign for raids. We are trying to recruit as much ppl as we can atm, but it is impossible, cuz of the low population. Recruiting from start of cata we didnt get many new players to the guild, while many old left[the game, not the guild]. Cuz of that, recently it is nearly impossible to create a raid group for 10 man. Prices of certain stuff on ah, comparing to other more populated servers is just crazy - 8-9 gold for savage leather??
In my opinion there is only one way to fix this problem - merge servers. Becouse atm, cuz of this fact, the entire game is becoming more and more boring every day. No progress, no fun. Nothing else to do[i dont know why, but for me there was smth better in wotlk than it is in Cata... like mammoths trains :P?].
If I will think of something else Ill try to post.
cheers
Bronzebeard
Also, I'm not sure why the new content requires 3 healers in a 10-man raid. We managed almost all of the Wrath content with 2 healers (only needing 3 healers for first kills of some bosses).
Argent Dawn
IMHO the first boss in each of the actual tier are to complex and totally unforgiving for 10 men groups, 1 single mistake = 1 death = wipe, I'm not comparing the actual raids with the WoTLK ones that was even too easy but Attumen the Huntsman was not so complex and unforgiving as Magmaw.
More examples? Void Reaver , High Warlord Naj'entus , Lucifron , Magmadar all "easy" fights , it's very hard make the ppl log in the week after when you spent all the night wiping on the first boss and that outside the raid there is nothing to do if you don't PVP.
regards.
Chamber of Aspects
According to me, what is good: you need only 10 men to go every content. This is in fact really good thing, because there are not so many players that know what they are doing with their class, using voice channels and english and also have time at evenings several times a week. Encounters themselves are also really interesting and looks nice, with various mechanics and Blizzard made great progress on this since vanilla.
But what is bed: as I play both tank and dps, I can say, that some classes are really bad for pve and I had to learn tanking to be able to join any PvE guild on my realm! Melee, especially rogues and warriors, cant compare with mages, hunters and other caster classes on the early raid lvl.They are maybe able to reach good numbers on dummys, but in some encounters such as ODS they are unable to reach good dps, because they are often in lack of sticking on the target. Also playing melee is much harder in movement and positioning in fight. Making some enhancement for melee dmg, especially when classes as warriors are highly dependant on power of weapons would be nice.
Anachronos
If you are a larger social guild, it's hard to keep players motivated enough to keep showing up for progression raids to continually wipe in a 25 man knowing they would be able to down it first more easily in a 10 man. I used to enjoy exploring new content with 24 raid buddies, now it's just a grind.
We attempted AC normal on 10 man when we couldn't get a 25 man group together and downed it after 6 attempts. It was my first time there (as for most) and I was actually disappointed. I enjoy raiding in larger groups, the 10 man thing isn't much fun for me. I appreciate that I might be in the minority, but it's the reason I'm not playing the game so much any more.
Twilight's Hammer
Deathwing
Blade's Edge
so on that note, perhaps a "easy" mode, like most games have, same fights like normal but with dmg, health and so on cutted like 25% or so across the board, so balance woulnd be a issue, you balance for normal and cut 25% straith for easy, so that all players would be able to see the content. could even be an acivement like " i took it easy: magmamaw" or something like that. As loot is cocerned, wich is what most people are concerned ufortunally, it could drop 346 blues, so hcs and easy raids would drop the same. epic should remain in normal and hc versions, after all the concern here is players seeing the content, NOT alow them to farm epic gear to faceroll the normal versions.
seemed to me a good way to adress that issue, but is just an idea like any other posted here.
Tarren Mill
Tarren Mill
and i want to add pre tbc was the most fun i had in wow especialy prince thunderian for the thunderfury was like we won the world cup hope to have that feeling ones again
Thunderhorn
Oh and if you want to know why we wiped: not enough ranged aoe (we can't kill the adds before the second wave comes on Magmaw), we can't beat the enrage timer (we executed the tactics on wyrmbreaker perfectly with all the drake killing and stuff, still he enrage at about 30% - we never got him lower than that), we are casual - we don't use voice communication (so conclave of wind is impossible to coordinate). There - the first 3 bosses of each encounter and reasons why I quit WoW a month ago.
Please blizzard, make me want to come back. Please.
Thunderhorn
Darksorrow
I'm from a (almost strict) 25 player guild that has just cleared all the normal content and we are starting to work on the hardmodes (Chim first).
I have to say we are all very pleased with the tuning so far compared to WoTLK. We wiped maybe 80 times or so on Al'Akir so now we seem only to do him in 10 mans near the end of the lockout, but my guildmaster commented this sort of fight "brings people together" and it was our biggest cheer of any fight.
We realise these hardmodes will be hard and my god they should be ! We look forward to the challenge of them now :O). As you said content nerfs itself over time and I guess you want people to see the content.
But the Heroic raids - well I don't think these should be nerfed as these are the pinnacle of the raiding in any tier. I know some people have issues with Hc 10s compared to Hc 25s and if its anything like 10 Al'Akir compared to 25 Al'Akir (10 being alot easier) then maybe balance 10 Hcs somewhat against 25 Hcs. But this is outside my scope of personal reference.
In short please don't nerf our upcoming 25 Hcs - we are relishing the challenge.
Darksorrow
We are a casual guild that had the time of our lives in Wrath. We are Wrath-babies according to this forum. We were able to raid the first bosses of every tier. We never did hard modes, and we never hit the end bosses untill next tier was out. But we didnt care. We loved playing in larger groups and having fun. We like playing up against the game (i.e we dont really enjoy pvp).
Cataclysm has nothing for us, sadly. We are not able to have a solid group of players week after week. We always have 1 or 2 new people with us. And most of us cant raid several nights a week. We have the gear from heroics, but we have had to admit, that we wont be able to take down Halfus, Magmaw or Omnotron regularly, because they are too unforgiving for a 10 man group. One small error from a single player is usually enough to ensure a wipe. And we would have to be harsher towards those of our friends that arent pulling 100% their potential weight.
We are probably just bad players (TM) and I know from these boards and the forums at mmo-champion, that the population that posts on forums seems to be the people endgame is tuned for.
But was it really nescessary to kill of ALL casual raiding? Why not have a single entry level raid, that we bad players could have social fun in? We love playing in groups larger than 5mans!
I get that we could just raid lower tier raids - but that is just not an option yet in Cata. And right now, nobody wants to go back to Wrath raids - i mean, we played in ICC for over a year!
The sad result is, that you gave casual raiding to everybody in Wrath - and now you take it away to cater for players that are more hardcore. The end result is that our guild and some of our friendship guilds are loosing the joy of endgame playing and Wow is turning sour for us. If the next tier doesnt come soon (and open up the current 10/25 man content for us), we are probably done in Wow - or reduced to a random levelling alts guild (luckily Cata is great for levelling).
Baradin Hold is ok for us - but we cant plan a guild-happening a week in advance (which we have to, due to peoples reallife commitments), and then we get unlucky that Tol Barad is lost. Then there is nothing to do other than disband and do 5man content.
We really tried Magmaw - and what is that sick joke Blizzard? :) First you kill all use for aoe in 5 mans - you teach us all to cc and to do single target damage. You nerf aoe across the board. I cant even think of a single heroic 5man boss that requires hard aoe - and boom... HAHAHA first raid boss Magmaw - you need plenty of aoe on adds... funny stuff. (we dont have a geared Death Knight yet to tackle adds without a need for aoe). And Halfus - a major random element from week to week - hard to learn new people that encounter! And Omnotron is also unforgiving towards new players due to the amount of stuff happening at once, but is probably learnable for a stable 10mand group. The next bosses are suppossedly even more unforgiving.... sigh.
I know, l2p or get out of raiding... but its depressing when you had the time of your life in 10man content in Wrath. (And in Kara in BC)
Sorry Blizzard, we hope you enjoy the fun you are providing hardcore players. I wonder why you went from being inclusive to being exclusive on pve content for larger groupsizes than 5?
Shadowsong
I like the challenge of defeating new bosses, but I think that should come after the first tier. You need more forgiving bosses to keep the interest of those new to raiding while they're learning. It's much better for someone to be almost killed and learn to recover from the mistake and then now how to avoid it the next time than constantly get caught out and wipe the whole group on one mis-step.
Keep the heroic modes harder for those that want the challenges.
Sylvanas
the hc`s in cata makes wotlk raids look trivial