Coffee with the Devs: The View from 10,000 Feet

So how is the view from way up here? It’s great actually -- we’re really happy with how Cataclysm is going so far, and we have big surprises on the horizon. On the other hand, there are details you can see at ground level that you can’t make out from 10,000 feet.
When we started these blogs, the idea was to foster developer communication to the players without some of the inherent problems of posting in forums. Some players have pointed out recently, and we totally agree, that the blogs up until now have been from a very high vantage point. We looked for topics with universal interest that would feel important and newsworthy. That has worked overall, but we also feel like we’ve lost something from when I used to be down in the metaphorical trenches talking to players in the forums.
So we’re going to try something a little different. We’re going to unleash some blogs that are much more conversational and less proclamational (that's a word now). If we deliver on this, it will hopefully feel like you’re eavesdropping on our design meetings. You won’t always learn a lot about exciting new features coming to the game, but you will (ideally) learn something about the design process itself. (When we have big, exciting news to share, or ‘State of the Game’ style blogs, we’ll still do those as well.)
But to pull off this more casual blog style, let’s establish a few ground rules:
- 1) No promises. I’m going to be talking about a lot about things we might do or things we could do. You shouldn’t interpret this brainstorming as patch notes. Our creative process is insanely iterative. We might pitch dozens of ideas before we find one we like. That can be really exhausting if you’re not used to it. If you’re more interested in final decisions and not idea churn, then this style of blog won’t be for you.
- 2) Don’t read too much between the lines. I’m going to point out a lot of design flaws in our game. “Oh no! Goatcaller admitted WoW was deeply flawed! It’s shark-jumping time!” Look, Blizzard is very critical about our own designs. There is virtually nothing in World of Warcraft that could not be improved. That has always been the case and will continue to be the case. Just because I’m going to be sharing that more frankly with you doesn’t mean that the game now has more cracks in its foundation than it ever did. There is an old saying (misattributed, from what I understand, to Otto Bismarck) that laws are like sausages; it is best not seeing them being made. My old friend and mentor Bruce Shelley used to apply the same maxim to game design.
- 3) No complaints about the topic. If we didn’t have an interesting discussion about a topic recently, e.g. shaman mechanics, I’m not going to invent one. That doesn’t mean that the class is perfect, or that we don’t love shaman players, or that the shaman class has no direction, or that the class design is frozen in carbonite. I’m not going to keep hash marks next to every class and spec to make sure I’ve covered their "Very Important Issues" lately in a blog. World of Warcraft design being what it is, we’ll probably eventually get around to talking about everyone on here, but it may take weeks or months or years. My team is responsible for areas of the game including classes, items, encounters, trade skills, achievements, combat, and UI, so my blogs will probably stick to those topics.
Okay, all that preamble is out of the way now. I’ll probably refer back to it sometimes, if we have some players stomping all over the ground rules.
One topic we’ve been discussing lately is the role of Hit and Expertise on tank gear (or more precisely, plate tanking gear). The conventional wisdom is that Hit and Expertise are threat stats, and you may need to swap them out with some of your mitigation stats depending on the situation. Realistically, unless you severely overgear the content, we don’t think that is actually true. Tanks almost always worry about survival first and foremost, which totally makes sense, and are willing to trade off threat stats for better mitigation in almost all situations. It’s much harder to progress if the tank explodes than it is if the cat occasionally pulls aggro. (It’s not quite that simple, but I’m going to gloss over details and exceptions since I spent so much text on the preamble up above).
Once upon a time, taunts could miss, and so Hit was marginally more interesting than it is today. Once upon a time, having a boss parry your attacks could speed up its swing timer, which turned Expertise into a (often weak) survival stat. Boss parries felt very random though, both in the sense that sometimes the tank would suddenly take much more damage than anticipated and there was no easy way to know which bosses had parry speed up. (Today, you can assume none of them do.) Until recently, interrupts could miss, but asking a tank to stack a bunch of Hit just for those few opportunities when they were probably going to hit anyway but disaster would occur if they did not felt crummy too.
The problem is that there aren’t a lot of stats that are interesting to tanks. Stamina and Armor are great, but their stat budget is often in lockstep with item level. (It would be interesting to consider if we could make that not the case once again, but that’s the topic for another blog.) We got rid of Defense as a stat that tanks needed to worry about. We have managed to make Mastery pretty good to excellent for tanks, so that’s at least one stat they like to see. Dodge and (if you’re a plate-wearer) Parry are good, and slightly interesting because of talents like Hold the Line. But beyond that, it starts to go downhill. Sure Haste and Crit can sometimes be fun, but really they often aren’t worth the trade off. That leaves us with Hit and Expertise. We’d like to make them more interesting to tanks. But how?
One way is by turning them into defensive stats. They are defensive stats for Blood death knights, because the DK self-healing is tied into Death Strike, which can miss. It might be possible to do something similar for the other classes. Imagine if Shield Block had to actually hit the target. Presumably you raise your shield, but not high enough to intercept the incoming blow. Now hit becomes a mitigation stat for warriors as well. We might have to adjust the mitigation amount on Shield Block or give warriors a small Hit bonus so Hit capping wasn’t totally unreasonable, but you get the basic idea. You could do the same with paladins (make Holy Shield more interesting?) and druids as well (Savage Defense could proc on a hit).
Is this a good idea? We’re not sure yet. You won’t see this change in the 4.1 patch for certain. There are trade-offs to making Hit and Expertise more valuable. Gearing as a tank might be more fun for experienced players, but it also might be more challenging for less experienced players. The number of struggling tanks in your Dungeon Finder groups might go up. Some less knowledgeable players (and to be fair, this stuff doesn’t exactly explain itself on the character sheet) might stack Hit way too high at the expense of a more valuable mitigation stat, such as mastery.
It is the kind of thing we’re talking about though, and if you want to make a contribution to the tanking forums but aren’t quite sure on a topic, here is one potential possibility.
Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer of World of Warcraft. He still has Buru’s Skull Fragment.

Garona
First, I think there is abosultely no issue here; for me, an over-powered player should have earned its gear with getting sharp in his gameplay: he should not only be stuffed, but he should have got skilled getting those HL epics. Therefore, he should be able to adapt, do more CC, lower his DPS so as to best serve the group, if the tank is weak.
But of course, this is not the way blizzard went for the last months, and so they kind of get what they deserve: overstuffed noobs that just don't understand the mechanics of the game and spam their cycle whatever happens.
Basically, Ghostcrawler says it's no fun fighting for aggro. Well I think I'm getting totally out of the scope of this game because it is actually something I still have long-term fun fighting with. I think it's normal RP that an atomic bomber IL391 DPS cannot release full rage when hiding behind a IL346 turtle...
Thing is, even in this rather extreme situation, as a hunter I can misdirect this 50K burst on the tank and everything will go fine. As a palatank, I can Hand of Salvation/Protection the reckless fool and everything runs fine. As a priest, I can Fade, as thief, I use my Tricks of the Trade, etc.
So if really something has to be done, you, dear Ghostcrawler, should go for aggro-sink DPS class abilities such as above, that along with tank abilites to help with aggro management. Create new ways of dealing with the problem, do not get rid of it for the sake of a minority of unskilled players.
Blizzard keeps on getting this game easier and easier. I usually do not agree with those simplifications but keep on finding my pleasure nevertheless. Here, we face a massive change in the wrong direction: one of those that will alter each and every encounter we will be invloved in; the whole gaming experience. The kind of change that could make all the long-time players feel kicked out of their game.
Silvermoon
Dragonmaw
Anachronos
Shattered Halls
Doomhammer
I was having this idea about making venegeance scale with the damage you do instead of the damage you take. And Hit/Expertise will play a great role there.
The reason that made me think of that was that I was tanking Vezax 25 for the Hard Mode achievement. Now at lvl 80, I never had aggro issues with Vezax. At lvl 85, he was not hitting me hard. I ended up with very low rage and very low venegeance, while the DPS were standing in black stuff on the ground and getting more haste.
I also thought of the effect of that on PVP, and since resilience, debuffs, and CC plays a big role in PvP.
From a Druid perspective, this would crit, haste, expertise and hit more interesting as mitigation stats, since savage defense scales with attack power (therefore venegeance).
So how about, keep the vengeance cap as it is, and make venegeance scale with damage done?
Darkmoon Faire
Hellfire
I would like to see Death knights and druids viable without hit and exp tough.
Kazzak
this answer is an direct answer to your hit/exp comments in your article.
I myself have had 8% hit and 26% exp since cataclysm hit and i wouldnt trade it off for ANY mitigation stat ever as ive tried the so called "modern" style of gearing and it ended with 9/10 dps overaggroing in the first minute of the fight and also rest of the fight, basicly we had to make sure our top dps stopped dps for a longer period of time to allow me to build higher threat during the course of the fight. Both me and our raid leader decided that i go back to 8% hit and 26% expertise and redid the fight again and behold the top dps was nowhere close to me on threat and since my other gear is more than sufficiant to handle heroic modes its perfectly fine, its neihter blizzards fault nor the dev´s fault that players our there have decided to ignore the , in my eyes important stats of all .. hit and expertise, i myself have played since vanilla(2005) and have always had hit/exp capped... players that dont do this and rely heavily on missdirect + tricks will soon be aware of the fact that they wont be able to hold threat and get other issues within their guilds. Most of the guides/info sites about tanking like ElitistJerks / Tankspot both point out the fact that hit + expertise is a must have stat in cataclysm to be able to build threat. What i recommend being done is a simple educational standpoint, there is no need to change how the game works but actually educate new players to the game on how the mechanic works, i spend far to much of my time talking to people about how certain mechanic works and they are fairly new players to the game (players that started in wotlk).
other than that your doing a brilliant job as always Ghosty but dont start messing with something that isnt broken ingame but broken by players.. sooner or later they will themselves realise that they need these stats or be replaced in their current raiding guild because they are not sustaining enough Threat on the bosses the guilds are progressing on !
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/kazzak/kenjo/simple
Skullcrusher
As I said - tie them to tank survival but make them separate stackable with others effects. If you just get more parry from hit or more dodge from exp I'll still stack the main stats unless these get a time two or three multiplier for their contributions.
I actually had more than one idea :)
Doomhammer
Change is good, i reckon. Cause you keep a look out for the numbers and all. but a little bit more explanation of the changes would be more welcome.
Just want to add, as a 85 pally with all my great aoe / multiple target attacks tanking abilties i still loose agro to some op classes. (i point to the boomkin)
Lightning's Blade
Playing a melee class as my main, I am entirely familiar with the frustration of being dodged/parried at times. This is in my opinion a "fun tax" especially on tanks, who obviously spend their time in front of bosses, and get dodged/parried all the time.
While it would be really nice to give hit and expertise some sort of defensive value, I think tanking specs should have a bit of extra hit and expertise either from talents or when choosing their specialization, as to not make it a big deal to cap those stats. The idea of the game is to be fun no? When you are frustrated by such things, it takes out a little bit of fun. Tanks have tons more to worry about, and in my opinion the tanking role requires the most skill, and most awareness to play well. Why not give them just a tiny bit of an easier time by helping them avoid this frustration of dodged/parried/missed attacks.
I'll give you a personal example: I charge into a group of mobs, rend one of them and then use thunderclap to spread the rend around, only to notice that my initial rend was parried, and the random group behind me just wildly takes aggro, and makes me run after the mobs to gather them up again. Thats not really fun imo.
Anyway nice to see GC posting again.
Aggramar
In a sense I do think that's a nice line to take - making hit/expertise make tanking more *fun* - but the issue is that that is always by definition going to come at the expense of something survival-related - and, unfortunately, when you're at the minmaxing stage (I'm not there, but I do try to think along those lines), you just can't afford to make such a decision. The 'right' choice is the frustrating choice.
Conceptually, it also ought to be something that actually fits with the concept of hit and expertise themselves - how, logically, can hitting the enemy improve your survival? A few ideas I'm juggling with on this front:
A talent (or specialisation bonus) in tanking trees along the lines of "Deflection": If you hit a mob currently aggro'd on you with a white attack, 0.25s is added to their swing timer. That wouldn't be a long delay, but it would have an overall effect of reducing total damage and smoothing potential spikes. A worry would be the possibility that it could make *haste* a desirable stat; I don't think that'd be the case, but it's something that the designer should perhaps be wary of. Too similar to Thunderclap/Judgements of the Just/Infected Wounds, though?
Similarly, one which reduces the damage of the mob's next swing? There would need to be a little tweaking to ensure that the 'right' solution is not then to pick a weapon that guaranteed exactly one hit per mob swing, however.
Finally, "hits increasing parry chance" might have some potential as an idea, since it's something inherently associated with the weapon in a way that dodge is not.
One mild worry about having hit/expertise affect survivability, though, is the fact that it makes -hit debuffs suddenly become potentially life-threatening, which isn't necessarily completely intuitive, and may possibly have ramifications on older low-level content that isn't built around any such changes to the tank mechanics. The concept of shields 'missing' is an interesting one, although it's not quite clear what Expertise would mean in such a situation, and it does run the risk of feeling like a double-dip punishment if you also need to hit to maintain other survival abilities (a'la DKs currently and - to a lesser extent - us paladins)
Ahn'Qiraj
Stormscale
I think he's 100% right. Along with the hit increases parry is a very good idea, as having the chance to hit the others weapon(Aka parrying), would actually make sense.
I would also see that if you get parried, your own swing timer was decreased; If you parry, you get pretty angry(Duh) and would like to hit them again fast when they're not ready.
Another option with expertise is that both the target's chance to be dodged/parried, your own chance to be dodged/parried by that mob is increased.
Another option is (for warriors" that when you activate Shield Block, it aswell increases either Hit or Expertise, as you have your shield more close to you, you have a bit more control. That may not have made sense, but I find it a thought worth considering.
Or give for example "Sentinel" passive ability to increase your expertise by 4, more or less. That way we can still strive to maximate expertise, but we don't HAVE to over do it, such as spamming gems or reforging all our gear to expertise.
Just as Leanalol said it's quite disturbing as you charge and rend > thunderclap, only to realize that your rend was either missed or dodged/parried. I think that's disturbing for pretty much all tanks out there and if that was fixed in any way, I think tanking would be alot more fun than it all ready is. I hate dpsing, tanking is what I love. But there are ocations where I just want to remove my specc and roll DPS, just because there are alot of stats I think needs to be worked on alot more. I focused for just mastery and dodge/parry for a long time. But then I had to add some stamina gems even though I didn't want to just to balance my health pool along with my avoidance. Sure it was quite a smart choice afterwards as I boosted my health by quite a bit and lost basically 0.50- mastery.
But as for hit and expertise, I feel no point in actually striving for it, instead I reforge it to migitate all my avoidance.
Bronze Dragonflight
Seeing as how mastery has become such a success for both types of classes (i.e. Tanks and dps), how about implementing the same type of system for hit and expertise.
Hit could double as Dodge for a tank related class (Since knowing how to hit helps to know how to avoid being hit), and expertise can double as parry (Since knowing how to stop the target from parrying you gives insight into being able to parry). Obviously the classes that need them would need a talent to allow the use of hit and expertise as defensive statistics, or simply adjust the current "Tank" talent in each tree to reflect the change.
How does that grab ya? :-D
Dentarg
Linking hit to some mitigation might prove a bit challenging, not only in terms of implementation, but rather learning path for players. Look at Death Strike. Obviously it is useful, although you find yourself being dependent not only on hit, but also rate of resource regeneration, and if it misses, you basically screwed not only some mitigation, but also 2 runes.
Darkspear
/raisedrink
Grim Batol
But I think to hit worked nicely, it didn't make or break you as a tank if it wasn't maxed out. You didn't need to be an Elitist Jerk to tank Zul Aman, you just needed to be good. So what if that tanked miss his taunt and they wiped in Zul Aman, and I wouldn't have missed cause I was hitcapped. They got up rebuffed and he moved them along towards completion. Not being capped mattered seldomly, but it was satisfying to know you were capped, and not a big deal to the guy who never realised that he wasn't.
It also made you give thought to your overall outfit, a particular item might not have been BiS, but since it had the to hit that completed your build, that particular piece of loot became extra juicy. And spurred good tanking discussions which were debating your set as a whole, and weighing tradeoffs, not just a short conclusion of which items are BiS.
They say in science, that evolution can't go backwards. And also here, we will probably see developers try and go ahead. But once we were warriors, once dinosaurs ruled.
Defias Brotherhood
Grim Batol
It was good to invest or aquire some items which gave you a block outfit. Not necessarily different in every part , but in some items. When you purpled up you started tanking heroics with this set, and on some bosses you needed such a set. This was a fun aspect for a tank, on some bosses you proved your worth simply by staying infront of the boss till it was dead. But then in other fights (like that fight in black temple that drop the twohander axe with ignore armor on), it was a dps race, and you needed to put out some serious threat with a whole dps raidgroup hot on your tail. Was fun, another epeen contest and something that one as a tank also wanted to excell in.
But you didn't like these mechanics I guess (including heroic strike and cleave, also not improved in my mind), so you kinda took the aspects of tanking, survive and aggro, and squeezed them together. Essentially making them almost parralel lines, and thus, making several of the attributes redundant. And so now, you want to separate them again, to make it more interesting to tank. Rightly so, it was more fun before. But instead of saying you improve with every change, why don't you say you play the accordian.
Grim Batol
But lets face it, you got something right here, and you got something right there. And you changed it ages ago and what was good is lost now. You seem to lose bad implementations as well as good ones, often it makes you wonder if new guys in the cyclus of development must say something, and must propose some sort of change.
Aggramar
Tarren Mill
Aggramar
Defias Brotherhood
Shattered Halls
Nordrassil
Most people are mad about the fact they changes are being made to the class without them being actually explained into detail.
It is the same as it used to be with extended server downtime, we used to just have to eat it without any information as to what is going on, or that something is actually going on that is preventing them from launching the servers again.
Now it has somewhat improved. They manage to put it into breaking news as soon as the deadline has passed for them to launch the servers, like this morning.
If they would be more pro-active, more than half of the people wouldn't be as mad as they are/would be.
Doomhammer
Sylvanas
I don't particularly like the idea of having fundamental skills scale off hit and expertise. But I am all for more interesting gear choices.
The most beneficial thing of this would be alleviating the "Tank gear only" syndrome. Anything that allows me to pick up ret (hit and mastery) gear without feeling like a complete moron would be just lovely.
Outland
Vek'nilash
Quel'Thalas
Yours Truly,
Blightsower
Ravencrest
Furthermore, it gives some more insight into the design process, something I myself are very interested in.
I'd much rather take time to join the discussion in a post like this, than the other blogs that has felt much more "overall".
Stormreaver
Here there's some actual stuff to think about, and discuss. And for those interested in how Blizzard gets to their results, the design process is an awesome peak at what goes on behind the curtains.
Looking much forward to future blogs :P
Daggerspine
Laughing Skull
Would be nice to also hear about the rationale and process around changes you already made in addition to reports about brainstorming.
For instance, if you actually explained why you nerfed something (e.g. giving some statistics you gathered) people would complain and feel wronged much less.
Regarding the topic, there is also another option to consider: making threat much harder to hold, for instance by nerfing the 3x threat multipliers (or even removing them, balanced by a massive vengeance buff).
That way, threat stats will become valuable for bosses with an enrage since lacking them will limit the group's dps.
Balnazzar
Think about it: Tanks no longer get multiplied threat so they get massive vengeance.
No multiplier and massive vengeance means tanks now hold threat purely by dps and so all dps classes now become tanks. It's sort of why the multipliers were there in the first place, so you can generate competitive threat without doing competitive dps.
Kazzak
On topic, not sure if this has been suggested before but it seems to me you're focussing very narrowly on incoming damage, when tanks also have another thing "incoming" on them: healing. There are some interesting things you can do when you start letting tank stats modify incoming heals, if that's even possible with current tech. For example, imagine a tank's 10% crit meant 1/10 non-crit incoming heals would instead crit? Or how about a haste buff being provided to a healer when they heal the tank, proportional to the tank's current haste percentage? These are just off the top of my head, not great ideas but it seems an interesting train of thought to me at least.
Alonsus
Tying them to mitigation abilities is, however, not a good idea. All of a sudden the balancing act for Tanks becomes worse and worse and I start rolling on hit / mastery gear which annoys a plate DPS and so on and so forth.
I imagine it would be more elegant to reduce some of the innate threat generation tanks do to make hit / expertise more attractive. Tone that down and make threat more relevant - it hasn't felt relevant since TBC.