The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pandaria

The lead designers were originally going to talk about this topic at BlizzCon, but it didn’t really match the content of the rest of our “Intro to Pandaria” presentation, and seeing as how we finished our 90-minute slot with 93 seconds remaining, there wouldn’t have been room for it anyway. But several of us did bring up the issue with players and media we talked to, and it even ended up in at least one FAQ, so we figured we’d go ahead and get the information out there. Note that unlike much of what we presented for the upcoming Mists of Pandaria expansion, this is not an announcement. It’s more of a problem we’d like to address, and a couple of ways we potentially might do so. Feedback is certainly appreciated.

Big Number Syndrome
Hey, our stats are growing exponentially. If you look at everything from the Strength on a weapon to the damage being done by a Fireball crit or the amount of health the Morchok boss has, they look downright absurd compared to the numbers for level 60 characters in the original shipping version of World of Warcraft. It’s not exactly a surprise that we were going to end up here, and we knew where we were going every step of the way, yet regardless, here we are.


Fig. 1. Item level vs. character level. Brown = vanilla. Green = BC. Blue = LK. Red = Cat.

The numbers grew so much primarily because we wanted rewards to be compelling. Upgrading from a chestpiece that has 50 Strength into one that has 51 Strength is undeniably a DPS increase for the appropriate user, but it’s not a very exciting reward. Such negligible increases can drive players to do some weird things, such as skipping over tiers of gear or entire levels of content. This is particularly relevant when we’re talking about a new expansion. We don’t want level-85 players to have a reasonable shot at level-90 dungeons and raids (or PvP opponents) just because that content is balanced for gear that isn’t much better than what the level-85 players have.

So we arrived at this point in a logical fashion, and we don’t really think we should have handled things any differently. However, it’s still a weird place to be, and it’s about to get weirder. These aren’t real items, in that we don’t know for sure what the item levels will be in patch 5.3 and patch 6.3 (if only we planned that far ahead!) but they are reasonable guesses, and you can see just how ridiculous the items look.


Fig. 2. A theoretical item from patch 5.3.


Fig. 3. A theoretical item from patch 6.3.

So what do we do about it? There are two general categories of solutions. The first is to make the numbers appear more manageable and the second is to actually change the numbers.

Mega Damage
The first solution could include changes like adding commas and the like to large numbers. We could also compress all of those 1000s to Ks and all of those 1,000,000s to Ms, much like we do with boss health today. Internally, we have been calling this the “Mega Damage solution” because instead of your Fireball hitting for 6,000,000 damage, it would hit for 6 MEGA DAMAGE (queue the Arcanite Ripper guitar solo).


Fig. 4. Mega Damage. Name/screenshot not to be taken seriously.

If we can make numbers such as floating combat text and boss health and item stats a little easier to read at a glance, then maybe we can endure numbers increasing exponentially for many digits to come. Now there are some very real computational limitations. PCs just can’t quickly perform math on very large numbers, so we’d have to solve all of those problems as well. Even today, tanks can hit the ten digit threat cap on some encounters.

Item Level Squish
The second solution actually involves compressing item levels, which is why we call it the “item level squish solution.” If we can lower stats on items, then we can lower every other number in the game as well, such as how much damage a Fireball does or how much health a gronn has. If you look at the item level curves, you can see that most of the growth occurs at the maximum character levels for the various expansions. This is because we keep rewarding more and more powerful gear to make the new raid tier and PvP season in an expansion reward significantly better gear than the previous one. However, those huge item level jumps don’t accomplish a lot once the character level has increased again. Very few players notice or care how much of an upgrade the Black Temple loot is over the Serpentshrine Cavern loot when their characters are level 80.

With that in mind, we could go back and compress the big item level increases that occur at level 60, 70, 80 and 85. The Mists of Pandaria gear would still grow exponentially from patch to patch, but the baselines would be a lot lower. Health could go from 150,000 back down to something like 20,000. The big risk of this approach is that players will log into the new expansion and feel nerfed… even if all the other numbers are compressed as well.

In other words, your Fireball will still do the same percentage damage to a player or a creature that it does today, but the number would be smaller. Logically, this seems like it would work, and it does. But it feels weird. When we tried this internally, everyone agreed that it just felt off throwing a spell for hundreds of damage when you are used to it doing thousands of damage.

I came up with an analogy -- even though I know logically that people drive on the left side of the street in the UK (we drive on the right side of the street in the US) and wouldn’t be surprised to see it, it would still feel really disorienting if I was driving in the UK and had to make a right-hand turn.


Fig. 5. Item level vs. character level before and after ‘squish’. Brown = vanilla. Green = BC. Blue = LK. Red = Cat

So Now What?
As I type this today, we haven’t decided on which if either solution we want to try. Maybe we’ll come up with yet another solution. Maybe it’s the kind of thing we can put off for another expansion so that players don’t have to adjust to the new talent system and a drastic item level compression at the same time. Or maybe it’s better just to pull the Band-Aid off fast and fix everything at once. Time will tell. I did, however, want to outline the problem lest any of you believe we don’t think there is a problem. There is. We’re just not sure of the best solution yet. If your answer is that stat budgets don’t have to grow so much in order for players to still want the gear, our experience says otherwise, and thus these proposed solutions exist. Your thoughts on the matter are valuable.

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. The last time he used “Fig. 5” in an article, it related fish predation to estuarine hydrocarbon contamination.

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Sethwar
Burning Legion
Sethwar
26/04/2012
I understand the idea of squishing, but I will also have a feeling that I won't have any reward for a higher level character. As level 90/95 I wanna be like a God with huge stats, why not? Now I have 142845 hp but instead of squishing, why not use 142k? So items in 6.3 could have 10K Strength and 16k Stamina. Rolling back to lower hp will make me feel like I'd re-start the game in a way. Maybe it will look like a fun server, but... it's already a fun server for some time. And it's just a game and it should be fun, right? So, I will vote for shorten measurements with K or M but not lower stats. That's my opinion mates.
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Kahen
Ahn'Qiraj
Kahen
14/04/2012
ilvl 700 with 15k stamina ! like fun server!
squish.... -.-
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Terendria
Darksorrow
Terendria
28/03/2012
I, as an Achievement hunter, fear that the squish will remove my ability to solo things effectively. When I make my monk, I am going to want to go back in older raids and get transmogrification leather gear, and I do fear that I will not be able to do this if the squish is pulled off. Please, do correct me if I am wrong.
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Shalter
Outland
Shalter
27/03/2012
I listened to Lore (ZAMofficial) and if I understood correctly they have already made their mind up and they're not going to squish because people doesn't realize it's a problem so they're gonna let it wait for the next expansion to squish because then the insane dmg would be so obvious that the players would under stand why the squish happened. But if it were up against me squish the damn stats I was actually excited about the stat squish thing :/.
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Rapbito
Defias Brotherhood
Rapbito
26/03/2012
Squish indeed :)
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Psychedragon
Shadowsong
Psychedragon
26/03/2012
Im just loling at his sig.
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Naros
Auchindoun
Naros
25/03/2012
Squish please
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Hybrid
Aggra (Português)
Hybrid
25/03/2012
I agree with the item squish, the numbers are already too inflated as it is now!
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Barracudan
Bloodscalp
Barracudan
23/03/2012
SQUISH PLS!! Would love to crit for 2k rather then 250k. It would feel more weird for me critting those ridicolus high numbers tbh. Also a lot of people care about this issue and I really think you have a greatly higher chance of winning back players by compressing stats. Trust me! peace out...
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Voíd
Ragnaros
Voíd
23/03/2012
Also, I just feel the game is too easy now, its why I stopped playing, its way too easy to get gear now, Vanilla was a challenge, it got easier and not as exciting from then on. The game's too gear dependent in a way now. Would love it back to the old ways :) and I personally didn't like the inclusion of flying mounts, takes the fun out of exploring, and you can just fly out of/past/around dangerous situations and its just too easy.
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Voíd
Ragnaros
Voíd
23/03/2012
I'd return to the game and pay if they reduced it all back! Would love that, just seems out of hand now, I loved Vanilla and TBC, after that it got silly for me.
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Juggernautt
Sylvanas
Juggernautt
23/03/2012
PF I already sence how much people will quit WoW if Blizz don't sqush the ilvls
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Wymion
Burning Blade
Wymion
22/03/2012
Just saw http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2700-Mists-of-Pandaria-Beta-AoE-Loot with gnome mage hittin crit for like 300k dmg. Blizz i beg u, flatten those ilvls pls. It looks rly silly. Do u really think some1 would quit game for item level squishing? -.-
http://mop.wowhead.com/item=79343 and what the hell is this? Itlem with +1000 agi and +1500 stam? Please...
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Rushbringer
Sylvanas
Rushbringer
22/03/2012
Squish all hp, items or in WoW Cosmos we wont see how Much DMG we deal it will be more wider than the our screens
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Juggernautt
Sylvanas
Juggernautt
22/03/2012
Squish the items many people will start playing again and many will quit if you budd the items even more
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Ponch
Neptulon
Ponch
20/03/2012
Reduce numbers, I would love you forever after.
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Jazirah
Die Todeskrallen
Jazirah
16/03/2012
Yep - It's really time to change things in the matter of the itemlevel.
How things changed in Cata was way to heavy in my opinion, i hate the huge numbers that we see nowadays.

For me, and a lot of others, it would be very nice if you change it like you said in fig. 5. Sacling down everything is definetaly the best choice.

And.. please.. don't even think about the stuff like "Mega Damage". Sounds bad, feels bad and does not fix the problem at its roots.
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Juggernautt
Sylvanas
Juggernautt
22/03/2012
@Jazirah: True story bro Mega Damage is even worse than the damage now
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Krillchiron
Azuremyst
Krillchiron
16/03/2012
Hate the sound of Megadamage. Sounds a bit silly to me.
Personally I'd prefer a simple reduction of all numbers in game. And probably assess it the same way for each expac from here on when they come round. I am dreading the day when I see numbers like 1,000.00000.000000.00..0.0000000.00000000 crit lol. I am glad they are tackling this now, and it is good to see them looking well in to the future for WoW :-)
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Gisely
Turalyon
Gisely
15/03/2012
You should really go for fig. 5! Making it like this would balance the game so much more, and you could still make new content.
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Wàrcry
Ahn'Qiraj
Wàrcry
04/03/2012
This is insane.
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Malak
Bladefist
Malak
26/02/2012
I'm intrigued by this.
Both solutions are likely to isolate some of your market. In some ways, you've got the choice between the 'Pro' players and the 'Casual'.

The pro players will be upset by the performance loss with the high numbers, and the Mega damage solution will make them feel slightly empty in the game.

The casual players will be confused and isolated by such a drastic change to the game. Incidentally, would you scale bosses around too? Such as Molten Core casual soloing, which currently appeals to most casual players, but leaves 'Pro' players feeling a bit unchallenged.

To reciprocate some of the thoughts and feelings already mentioned, the game is currently lost it's magic. Whilst the larger numbers undoubtedly contribute to this, there are much more pressing issues. Your Game master team is complacent and rude to everyone, never able to help. Gold sellers have never been successfully stamped out. The world is too small.

I genuinely think these three problems alone deserve more merit. The world is currently far too small, my mage can reach anywhere on it in under 5 minutes. It doesn't feel like a world anymore. The amount of effort that would go into doing this would be better spend on expanding land masses.
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Whitetigerr
Argent Dawn
Whitetigerr
25/02/2012
I vote on fig 5.
I think the game is more balanced with this ^^
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Gareth
Azjol-Nerub
Gareth
22/02/2012
I agree that exponential growth in stats is self-defeating eventually. Also, due to increasing ilvl and stat gains at end game, when the level cap is extended it means that new expansions need to escalate stats on gear to make the gear desirable as things stand.

One thought I had on a rainy day was to flatten the stats on gear based on the level of the wearer, meaning that as you gain levels, the stats reduce as well. For instance, an item designed for a level 60 char will have lower stats if worn by a higher level character. A higher level character gains base stats as they level and the differential in levels will still apply to hits/crits etc.

I wonder if this thought would survive a sunny day thought ...

And as a last point, the greater accessibility of the end game is a vast improvement over Classic and TBC. We have a guild of ordinary people, some good players, some not so good, who would like to see all the content produced. We don't mind waiting a while while we gear up and other harder core players complete content before we do, and nowadays we have a real chance at completing raid content that we would not have even tried before. Too many people, in life and WoW, spend too much time looking back at the past with rose-tinted glasses and miss all the good things that have improved over time.
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Strifey
Ravenholdt
Strifey
20/02/2012
Each tier in classic was only slightly better than the last, and no one even considered skipping any tiers. People in MC gear also still had no chance whatsoever in Naxxramas.

Just ditch exponential growth and go back to the classic growth curve...
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Droojoe
Aggramar
Droojoe
03/02/2012
fig 2 and 3 are definitely better gives a chance for raids to be more intense for those who don't have the awesome gear to get something worth while
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Ös
Twilight's Hammer
Ös
30/01/2012
all i have to say, fig5 is the best choice.

enough said.
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Nerisella
Hellfire
Nerisella
06/01/2012
If you follow the inflation outlined Fig. 5 when performing the squish, and retune everything in the game accordingly to the right level/difficulty (akin to the real feel of the instance at the correct gear level) then overall the lower item level increase between content should make the whole game (rather than just end game instances) more enjoyable to play again.

It would be nice if you could start designing some decent encounters occasionally to compliment this though, as one of the main points (for me anyway) is that the recent encounter design hasn't been compelling to play at all.
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Deathswitch
Grim Batol
Deathswitch
31/12/2011
I am sorry to agree with many of the negative comments towards both how the game has progressed and the solutions you offer. Most of your balances end up knocking the game even further out of balance. You undermine the achievement systems on many levels and aside from this discourage alting and new players to gain an intrest in the achievement system. One idea I would like is new progressive servers from classic content. THAT I would play. BC was a very intresting expansion. wotlk was decent. Cataclysm is painful at many points and I often want to stop playing, the players have gotten free gear, bad players get helping hands to the top.

In classic you could command 39 other players in an epic AV battle (sadly they are not very epic anymore) and they would all do their best to push forward and actually work together.

Today you can't get a small team of 9 or 14 other players to have a single player doing as you should. This is perhaps the most sad part.

fyi, tickets take 48 hrs + old glitches are ignored and GMs are rude and quick to players and completely neglect the feeling of service you had in previous expansions in this once magical game.

Perhaps it's time to lower the price per month in accordance with quality?

Perhaps you should get a playerpool from the different aspects of the game and give a slice to everyone?
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Thallim
Earthen Ring
Thallim
25/01/2012
@Deathswitch: well that's becouse blizz only cares about money and making it easy for the idiots makes them alot of it
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Flexius
Suramar
Flexius
31/12/2011
Here's an idea Blizzard.

Give us the ability to lower our current level at will. I don't mean like a option in the character window or even a NPC. Make it a spell. I was thinking something like Hide Power, which could stack up 8 and would reduce all stats by 10% to the player and his gear.

But the real beauty of this idea is that in MOP, while we quest, we could be forced by the new land to use Hide Power. That way Blizzard you won't have to inflate the MOP greens like you did in Cata.
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Barracudan
Bloodscalp
Barracudan
24/03/2012
@Flexius: Your suggestion is to implement an option to nerf our char at free will? Sounds really stupid tbh.
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Smashpwner
Anachronos
Smashpwner
23/12/2011
Out of those two I believe that squishing would be more reasonable, even keeping the disorientation in mind. But I have something else to add to that. Your arguments for item level inflation at the level cap is compelling, and you have the numbers, but I don't believe that people will start skipping tiers because the numbers aren't high enough above what they have. Back in vanilla I tried and failed to skip Giantstalker, but the reason? I didn't like how it looked but loved how Dragonstalker looked and wanted to spend my DKP on what I really wanted. Now that LFR is in and I'm not going to join a guild that uses DKP ever again I would probably roll on the Giantstalker. If we keep in mind that many players will look on websites optimal builds, it's not a stretch to suggest that a few "measly" points up in a stat would piqué their interest. Certainly, if the stat squish goes ahead each point would be worth FAR more than it is today.

I guess my point is that it's perhaps not such a big concern. Remember, it was possible to enter the Molten Core at level 58, but a lot of items having level 60 requirements and even just the fact that it was an end-game raid meant that nobody who didn't have it on farm status ever did (I should say I don't remember it ever happening).
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Tazijih
Shattered Hand
Tazijih
21/12/2011
You did this to yourselves Blizzard. You keep entertaining the thought that you can make something epic out of every nook and cranny in WoW, and that just dilutes the overall experience when you can't do a single quest without it leading to some big standing ovation by NPCs and a blue reward that throws your former expansion epics in the trash.

Furthermore, you should have never raised the level cap. Ever. You should have introduced more dungeons, and scrapped the retarded idea of heroics. You have made your player base lazy and comfortable with repetitive ideas of enjoyment that is truly an illusion.
WoW has been outgrown, not because it hasn't tried to keep up with the general gamer of today, but because YOU people have tried to squeeze the lemon every chance you got.

The way to fix this, you ask? I honestly have no idea. You started out with a game that could hold your hand, but didn't try to, and then you turned it into a game that won't let go of your hand at all. Everything is so specified and easy, the in-game quest helper oh yeah.

You think you are just giving the people what they want. Providing your consumers with the possibility to play as they demand to be playing. So you failed at what made the gaming universe, to get a player base interested and turn them into die hard fans by requesting that they rise to the level of the game, instead of the game dumbing itself down to the level of the lowest common denominator.

You once had a game where people would spend hours on end to try and achieve a ridiculously minor upgrade, because it felt like a big step up the social ladder in the game. Now you have a game where I can't even bring myself to do 3 instances in a row, even though it has been made a hell of a lot easier to get in, get done and get out. And perhaps that is why Blizzard.

You had a world. But you went with the WRONG approach for evolution. As a result you have a product that has diluted the quality of the MMO playerbase. And I bet you are shameless indeed.
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Smashpwner
Anachronos
Smashpwner
23/12/2011
@Tazijih: The steps detailed in your second paragraph would lead to a similar problem, but significantly worse because it would leave new players (and alts!) without a cat in hell's chance of being competitive anywhere or getting into any recent PvE content in a timescale that is anywhere near reasonable. The way things are now is hardly ideal, but what you envision is hardly an improvement.
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Hammerby
Darksorrow
Hammerby
08/01/2012
@Tazijih: Let me put it to you like this, WoW is not easy. In-game quest helper? You do know that WoW is on a MMORPG market with other very strong games, now all these games has quest helper, you can't find a MMORPG without in-game quest helper. Blizzard wanted to keep up with that new modern thing. That was point one.

As I look through your character, looks like you haven't cleared any kind of PvE raids and you claim its easy? Its hard, nothing is easy in WoW. Btw, Blizzard didn't make it easy, they made the game UNDERSTANDABLE. They made it friendly to NEW PLAYERS.

If you were new in vanilla and didn't get helped by someone who knew vanilla alot, you would quit the game because you would be rejected and grow tired of it. All the ridicoulus farm of spell books, weird quests and such. Many new players couldn't understand it and quited the game afterwards. Because WoW changed the game from vanilla, they grew in numbers way more that they did in vanilla. And HC's was made to be challenging and they was in many circumstances. Normal dungeons was is for levelling and HC's is for gearing up and challenge. When TBC for example, was launched ALL HC's was hard, what happen when we were at Sunwell? They were soo easy, yeye. WOTLK, the launch of WOTLK, all HC's was hard. Again, what happens around ICC? Easy peasy. Same with Cataclysm, in the beginning, hard, now, easy peasy.

Blizzard doesn't makes WoW stupid with so many changes, they tries to keep up with the market competition. They dont wanna loose members over people needs to farm and farm to just have some fun.

There is still tons of farm in this game for the farmers, go farm gold, go farm achievements, go farm mounts, go farm BoE's, go farm transmo gear.
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Roxiwiz
Deathwing
Roxiwiz
11/12/2011
*Squish* and things will become interesting and challenging again :D I think ppl here is disorientated by the meaning of squish. its not to drag gears from tbc or wrath down below of what u can get inn vanilla. its only to drag the numbers down a bit and the % damage. stat and buffs stays the same. but the numbers is only smaller. like today about 250 hit ratigg is about 1%. wold other wise be 50 hit rating is 1%. and instead of 500 agi/str/int something like 50. witch makes the game balance like wath we saw in TBC or wrath. were uttarly. every number counted. like today if u lack 5 stam or 5 int on a gem. its pointless to spend. hundreds of gold to gain thous 5 stats extra. cus the numbers are so huge. ut wont mater. i wold recommend this be done and pretty decently fast. cus today the numbers are in a way that makes u brain uninterested. and hard to lock upon the difference. u got some brains out there witch mostly can do math beon the calculator. but then again. that makes the game boring and unintrested. cus to hi stats ruins the game. and that is in fackt a problem for this game. manny have lest cus of the redicules increase in numbers. and manny friends i have like to lvl to 60. and litterly deleate there char to start ower. cus they dont want to get involved in the meaningless number hunt witch, BC actually started in the first place. Blizz pliz fix the game. and bring back the nostalgic leafing in the numbers. were 10 hit meant something. and 5 spell power made the day. ./missing the old days. /plays on mage twink.

--roxi--
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Musachi
Auchindoun
Musachi
11/12/2011
i Se the point in it but this is kinda a big problem i mean if etc you lower stats on wotlk items you got the problem that the dungeons will be to hard and the nps's and mobs will be too great of a deal so if you wanna lower stats all over you need to start re-editing all the prewiev expantions
so its kinda a great problem so if i where you i would make a team work on re-editing all items stats and make it an update instead an anournce a thanks for not leaveing because we needed to re-edit wow gift like a mouth payment to people who have played along time and stayed through hard times i my self dont play wow atm but i think if you need to lower stats its a big update and shouldnt be a delay to the new expantion

musachi out ;P
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Roxiwiz
Deathwing
Roxiwiz
11/12/2011
@Musachi: i agree. let it get changed now. before pand. could be benefit for blizz thou. id they did it now. pll wold be in disorientating situation, but it would even out when pand. comes. and be utterly be more enjoy able for the player base. thou. could bring back some players.
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Supercrush
Azuremyst
Supercrush
10/12/2011
I don't see how Blizzard are going to be able to come up with a squish solution and I don't understand player's justification for it. Hopefully we'll all get a better understanding in the near future but I know as far as I am concerned unless a formula is thought out that allows for players too progress, become stronger and hit harder (thus being able to do older content easily as it has been surpassed) I will probably leave the game. (Say what you will)

I am for the number condensation as opposed to the item squish.

And heck..Lets not forget the main reasoning behind Blizzard increasing the HP of players so much in Cataclysm was to have longer fights in combat. :P
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