The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pandaria

The lead designers were originally going to talk about this topic at BlizzCon, but it didn’t really match the content of the rest of our “Intro to Pandaria” presentation, and seeing as how we finished our 90-minute slot with 93 seconds remaining, there wouldn’t have been room for it anyway. But several of us did bring up the issue with players and media we talked to, and it even ended up in at least one FAQ, so we figured we’d go ahead and get the information out there. Note that unlike much of what we presented for the upcoming Mists of Pandaria expansion, this is not an announcement. It’s more of a problem we’d like to address, and a couple of ways we potentially might do so. Feedback is certainly appreciated.

Big Number Syndrome
Hey, our stats are growing exponentially. If you look at everything from the Strength on a weapon to the damage being done by a Fireball crit or the amount of health the Morchok boss has, they look downright absurd compared to the numbers for level 60 characters in the original shipping version of World of Warcraft. It’s not exactly a surprise that we were going to end up here, and we knew where we were going every step of the way, yet regardless, here we are.


Fig. 1. Item level vs. character level. Brown = vanilla. Green = BC. Blue = LK. Red = Cat.

The numbers grew so much primarily because we wanted rewards to be compelling. Upgrading from a chestpiece that has 50 Strength into one that has 51 Strength is undeniably a DPS increase for the appropriate user, but it’s not a very exciting reward. Such negligible increases can drive players to do some weird things, such as skipping over tiers of gear or entire levels of content. This is particularly relevant when we’re talking about a new expansion. We don’t want level-85 players to have a reasonable shot at level-90 dungeons and raids (or PvP opponents) just because that content is balanced for gear that isn’t much better than what the level-85 players have.

So we arrived at this point in a logical fashion, and we don’t really think we should have handled things any differently. However, it’s still a weird place to be, and it’s about to get weirder. These aren’t real items, in that we don’t know for sure what the item levels will be in patch 5.3 and patch 6.3 (if only we planned that far ahead!) but they are reasonable guesses, and you can see just how ridiculous the items look.


Fig. 2. A theoretical item from patch 5.3.


Fig. 3. A theoretical item from patch 6.3.

So what do we do about it? There are two general categories of solutions. The first is to make the numbers appear more manageable and the second is to actually change the numbers.

Mega Damage
The first solution could include changes like adding commas and the like to large numbers. We could also compress all of those 1000s to Ks and all of those 1,000,000s to Ms, much like we do with boss health today. Internally, we have been calling this the “Mega Damage solution” because instead of your Fireball hitting for 6,000,000 damage, it would hit for 6 MEGA DAMAGE (queue the Arcanite Ripper guitar solo).


Fig. 4. Mega Damage. Name/screenshot not to be taken seriously.

If we can make numbers such as floating combat text and boss health and item stats a little easier to read at a glance, then maybe we can endure numbers increasing exponentially for many digits to come. Now there are some very real computational limitations. PCs just can’t quickly perform math on very large numbers, so we’d have to solve all of those problems as well. Even today, tanks can hit the ten digit threat cap on some encounters.

Item Level Squish
The second solution actually involves compressing item levels, which is why we call it the “item level squish solution.” If we can lower stats on items, then we can lower every other number in the game as well, such as how much damage a Fireball does or how much health a gronn has. If you look at the item level curves, you can see that most of the growth occurs at the maximum character levels for the various expansions. This is because we keep rewarding more and more powerful gear to make the new raid tier and PvP season in an expansion reward significantly better gear than the previous one. However, those huge item level jumps don’t accomplish a lot once the character level has increased again. Very few players notice or care how much of an upgrade the Black Temple loot is over the Serpentshrine Cavern loot when their characters are level 80.

With that in mind, we could go back and compress the big item level increases that occur at level 60, 70, 80 and 85. The Mists of Pandaria gear would still grow exponentially from patch to patch, but the baselines would be a lot lower. Health could go from 150,000 back down to something like 20,000. The big risk of this approach is that players will log into the new expansion and feel nerfed… even if all the other numbers are compressed as well.

In other words, your Fireball will still do the same percentage damage to a player or a creature that it does today, but the number would be smaller. Logically, this seems like it would work, and it does. But it feels weird. When we tried this internally, everyone agreed that it just felt off throwing a spell for hundreds of damage when you are used to it doing thousands of damage.

I came up with an analogy -- even though I know logically that people drive on the left side of the street in the UK (we drive on the right side of the street in the US) and wouldn’t be surprised to see it, it would still feel really disorienting if I was driving in the UK and had to make a right-hand turn.


Fig. 5. Item level vs. character level before and after ‘squish’. Brown = vanilla. Green = BC. Blue = LK. Red = Cat

So Now What?
As I type this today, we haven’t decided on which if either solution we want to try. Maybe we’ll come up with yet another solution. Maybe it’s the kind of thing we can put off for another expansion so that players don’t have to adjust to the new talent system and a drastic item level compression at the same time. Or maybe it’s better just to pull the Band-Aid off fast and fix everything at once. Time will tell. I did, however, want to outline the problem lest any of you believe we don’t think there is a problem. There is. We’re just not sure of the best solution yet. If your answer is that stat budgets don’t have to grow so much in order for players to still want the gear, our experience says otherwise, and thus these proposed solutions exist. Your thoughts on the matter are valuable.

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. The last time he used “Fig. 5” in an article, it related fish predation to estuarine hydrocarbon contamination.

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Comments (1,639)

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Lockynko
Thunderhorn
Lockynko
08/04/2013
Lower stats its better, vanila 10 k hp, tbc 15 k hp wotlk 20 k hp, why cataclysm up with levels too much for 142k hp and pandaria to? for next expansion, level can be lower, as to tbc/ wotlk maybe . This is my opinion.
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Broxigor
Hellscream
Broxigor
01/04/2013
SQUISH THE HELL OUT OF THESE NUMBERS!
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Jindorek
Darkmoon Faire
Jindorek
28/03/2013
I like playing WoW. I do not play DragonballZ. the reason, is primarily, the silly numbers. So please, SQUASH the hell out of those numbers. i will be happy hitting for 20. so long as the mob is hitting me for 12-18.
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It would only feel "wierd" for about a week or so, let's pull this plaster off quickly and just be done with it.
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Elunatic
Thunderhorn
Elunatic
16/01/2013
I was thinking about this a few months ago when I was leveling a new character. I've played wow since the year is was released and the numbers look ridiculous. Its awesome that you are bringing it up publicly.
As I ran around getting items which gave me +1 more stat than the item I have and feeling really happy about it I thought it was funny that I wouldn't waste my time for +1 stat on my raiding toons. In truth though I would waste my time at lvl 90, I do everyday. In fact when lvling I dont really care becuase the item is replaced quickly but at lvl 90 I wil have this weapon for a while so if it's better in slot thats the end of it I enchant, gem and equip the item until I get the next slightly better item.

You have more data than anyone on this subject but the obvious issue and I assume the reason why you have any hesitation is the potential for players to log in and go "OMG I got nerfed, FML, WTF," then quit the game. I don't really think that will happen, players get actual nerfs all the time and at least from my tiny exposure to that data i.e. my friends, you just get on with it and play the game within the parameters which change every month, even if its only slight changes.

Speaking from a personal point of view I love major changes, they make life more interesting. So a item lvl nerf would simply be like rearranging the furniture. Still the same furniture and the room is the same size but I've moved the tv around and the couch so it feels a bit fresh and different. It might feel odd when my friends come over but they will get used to it very quickly.
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Shortchange
Aggramar
Shortchange
20/09/2012
Number squish would be great, it's already getting out of hand.
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Chuckbassx
Frostmane
Chuckbassx
16/09/2012
Go back to lower numbers. It's getting ridiculous.
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Etoile
Auchindoun
Etoile
02/08/2012
Awesome idea. I really wish it will go live
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Wellyou
Eredar
Wellyou
27/07/2012
Logging in the first time to a new expansion, especially with the talent system changes will feel already absurdly weird, but only for a very short period.

Let's be real, one will get used to whatever solution you decide for, the squish would make it feel more natural though if you were to level a new toon in MOP.
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Vindrake
Terenas
Vindrake
27/07/2012
I think it would be fantastic to go back to Vanilla/TBC numbers, the numbers in this game are getting way out of hand. Also, adding K and M etc onto numbers won't tell me exactly how much I hit.. wouldn't all the numbers that come on my screen be pretty much the same? (Example: 14M, 12M, 17M, 12M, 15M) That seems really quite dull to me.
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Calderi
Grim Batol
Calderi
26/07/2012
I'd love to go back to the vanilla numbers
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Just lower all numbers back again and make some balance in it all.

Make all gear and dmg and stuff as TBC dmg. Make a whole new level of World of Warcraft and all except the "Americans" (Look comment down). And the patches after that you can continue large the numbers but not as much as you did in Cata > WOTLK. The numbers are too big.

Playing a Private server would be more fun and look more original than playing the real World of Warcraft, and without paying money.
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Totality
Stormreaver
Totality
27/06/2012
It's quite obvious what people want, but too bad there exists such a thing called Americans. I'm 100% sure they want to see bigger numbers, faster progression and other things to ruin this. Sad indeed since America > Europe.
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Kunzzi
Ragnaros
Kunzzi
07/06/2012
It should be done, but It won't be. It's hard enough to balance pvp already, players find a new way to deal tons of uncontrollable dmg every patch, it's bull!@#$ - How you expect this game to be balanced if people will have almost 1 mln hp and deal 200k crits. I don't give a %^-* about "feeling of dealing less dmg" I want to enjoy this game without being nagged by new op class every patch.
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Sethwar
Burning Legion
Sethwar
26/04/2012
I understand the idea of squishing, but I will also have a feeling that I won't have any reward for a higher level character. As level 90/95 I wanna be like a God with huge stats, why not? Now I have 142845 hp but instead of squishing, why not use 142k? So items in 6.3 could have 10K Strength and 16k Stamina. Rolling back to lower hp will make me feel like I'd re-start the game in a way. Maybe it will look like a fun server, but... it's already a fun server for some time. And it's just a game and it should be fun, right? So, I will vote for shorten measurements with K or M but not lower stats. That's my opinion mates.
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Kahen
Ahn'Qiraj
Kahen
14/04/2012
ilvl 700 with 15k stamina ! like fun server!
squish.... -.-
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Terendria
Darksorrow
Terendria
28/03/2012
I, as an Achievement hunter, fear that the squish will remove my ability to solo things effectively. When I make my monk, I am going to want to go back in older raids and get transmogrification leather gear, and I do fear that I will not be able to do this if the squish is pulled off. Please, do correct me if I am wrong.
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Calderi
Grim Batol
Calderi
26/07/2012
@Terendria: I'm 110% sure that they would reduce the health & damage of the older raids aswell, if an item squish would ever be released
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Jindorek
Darkmoon Faire
Jindorek
28/03/2013
@Terendria: EVERYTHING wud get squished. percentagewise the game would remain exactly the same. we just wont have large stupid numbers slowing down our gameplay
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Shalter
Outland
Shalter
27/03/2012
I listened to Lore (ZAMofficial) and if I understood correctly they have already made their mind up and they're not going to squish because people doesn't realize it's a problem so they're gonna let it wait for the next expansion to squish because then the insane dmg would be so obvious that the players would under stand why the squish happened. But if it were up against me squish the damn stats I was actually excited about the stat squish thing :/.
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Calderi
Grim Batol
Calderi
26/07/2012
@Shalter: Since when is Lore one of the leaders of Blizzard? all he can do is assume.
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Rapbito
Defias Brotherhood
Rapbito
26/03/2012
Squish indeed :)
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Psychedragon
Shadowsong
Psychedragon
26/03/2012
Im just loling at his sig.
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Naros
Auchindoun
Naros
25/03/2012
Squish please
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Hybrid
Aggra (Português)
Hybrid
25/03/2012
I agree with the item squish, the numbers are already too inflated as it is now!
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Barracudan
Bloodscalp
Barracudan
23/03/2012
SQUISH PLS!! Would love to crit for 2k rather then 250k. It would feel more weird for me critting those ridicolus high numbers tbh. Also a lot of people care about this issue and I really think you have a greatly higher chance of winning back players by compressing stats. Trust me! peace out...
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Voíd
Ragnaros
Voíd
23/03/2012
Also, I just feel the game is too easy now, its why I stopped playing, its way too easy to get gear now, Vanilla was a challenge, it got easier and not as exciting from then on. The game's too gear dependent in a way now. Would love it back to the old ways :) and I personally didn't like the inclusion of flying mounts, takes the fun out of exploring, and you can just fly out of/past/around dangerous situations and its just too easy.
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Voíd
Ragnaros
Voíd
23/03/2012
I'd return to the game and pay if they reduced it all back! Would love that, just seems out of hand now, I loved Vanilla and TBC, after that it got silly for me.
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Juggernautt
Sylvanas
Juggernautt
23/03/2012
PF I already sence how much people will quit WoW if Blizz don't sqush the ilvls
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Wymion
Burning Blade
Wymion
22/03/2012
Just saw http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2700-Mists-of-Pandaria-Beta-AoE-Loot with gnome mage hittin crit for like 300k dmg. Blizz i beg u, flatten those ilvls pls. It looks rly silly. Do u really think some1 would quit game for item level squishing? -.-
http://mop.wowhead.com/item=79343 and what the hell is this? Itlem with +1000 agi and +1500 stam? Please...
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Rushbringer
Sylvanas
Rushbringer
22/03/2012
Squish all hp, items or in WoW Cosmos we wont see how Much DMG we deal it will be more wider than the our screens
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Juggernautt
Sylvanas
Juggernautt
22/03/2012
Squish the items many people will start playing again and many will quit if you budd the items even more
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Ponch
Neptulon
Ponch
20/03/2012
Reduce numbers, I would love you forever after.
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Jazirah
Die Todeskrallen
Jazirah
16/03/2012
Yep - It's really time to change things in the matter of the itemlevel.
How things changed in Cata was way to heavy in my opinion, i hate the huge numbers that we see nowadays.

For me, and a lot of others, it would be very nice if you change it like you said in fig. 5. Sacling down everything is definetaly the best choice.

And.. please.. don't even think about the stuff like "Mega Damage". Sounds bad, feels bad and does not fix the problem at its roots.
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Juggernautt
Sylvanas
Juggernautt
22/03/2012
@Jazirah: True story bro Mega Damage is even worse than the damage now
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Krillchiron
Azuremyst
Krillchiron
16/03/2012
Hate the sound of Megadamage. Sounds a bit silly to me.
Personally I'd prefer a simple reduction of all numbers in game. And probably assess it the same way for each expac from here on when they come round. I am dreading the day when I see numbers like 1,000.00000.000000.00..0.0000000.00000000 crit lol. I am glad they are tackling this now, and it is good to see them looking well in to the future for WoW :-)
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Gisely
Turalyon
Gisely
15/03/2012
You should really go for fig. 5! Making it like this would balance the game so much more, and you could still make new content.
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Wàrcry
Ahn'Qiraj
Wàrcry
04/03/2012
This is insane.
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Malak
Bladefist
Malak
26/02/2012
I'm intrigued by this.
Both solutions are likely to isolate some of your market. In some ways, you've got the choice between the 'Pro' players and the 'Casual'.

The pro players will be upset by the performance loss with the high numbers, and the Mega damage solution will make them feel slightly empty in the game.

The casual players will be confused and isolated by such a drastic change to the game. Incidentally, would you scale bosses around too? Such as Molten Core casual soloing, which currently appeals to most casual players, but leaves 'Pro' players feeling a bit unchallenged.

To reciprocate some of the thoughts and feelings already mentioned, the game is currently lost it's magic. Whilst the larger numbers undoubtedly contribute to this, there are much more pressing issues. Your Game master team is complacent and rude to everyone, never able to help. Gold sellers have never been successfully stamped out. The world is too small.

I genuinely think these three problems alone deserve more merit. The world is currently far too small, my mage can reach anywhere on it in under 5 minutes. It doesn't feel like a world anymore. The amount of effort that would go into doing this would be better spend on expanding land masses.
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Whitetigerr
Argent Dawn
Whitetigerr
25/02/2012
I vote on fig 5.
I think the game is more balanced with this ^^