The Great Item Squish (or Not) of Pandaria

The lead designers were originally going to talk about this topic at BlizzCon, but it didn’t really match the content of the rest of our “Intro to Pandaria” presentation, and seeing as how we finished our 90-minute slot with 93 seconds remaining, there wouldn’t have been room for it anyway. But several of us did bring up the issue with players and media we talked to, and it even ended up in at least one FAQ, so we figured we’d go ahead and get the information out there. Note that unlike much of what we presented for the upcoming Mists of Pandaria expansion, this is not an announcement. It’s more of a problem we’d like to address, and a couple of ways we potentially might do so. Feedback is certainly appreciated.

Big Number Syndrome
Hey, our stats are growing exponentially. If you look at everything from the Strength on a weapon to the damage being done by a Fireball crit or the amount of health the Morchok boss has, they look downright absurd compared to the numbers for level 60 characters in the original shipping version of World of Warcraft. It’s not exactly a surprise that we were going to end up here, and we knew where we were going every step of the way, yet regardless, here we are.


Fig. 1. Item level vs. character level. Brown = vanilla. Green = BC. Blue = LK. Red = Cat.

The numbers grew so much primarily because we wanted rewards to be compelling. Upgrading from a chestpiece that has 50 Strength into one that has 51 Strength is undeniably a DPS increase for the appropriate user, but it’s not a very exciting reward. Such negligible increases can drive players to do some weird things, such as skipping over tiers of gear or entire levels of content. This is particularly relevant when we’re talking about a new expansion. We don’t want level-85 players to have a reasonable shot at level-90 dungeons and raids (or PvP opponents) just because that content is balanced for gear that isn’t much better than what the level-85 players have.

So we arrived at this point in a logical fashion, and we don’t really think we should have handled things any differently. However, it’s still a weird place to be, and it’s about to get weirder. These aren’t real items, in that we don’t know for sure what the item levels will be in patch 5.3 and patch 6.3 (if only we planned that far ahead!) but they are reasonable guesses, and you can see just how ridiculous the items look.


Fig. 2. A theoretical item from patch 5.3.


Fig. 3. A theoretical item from patch 6.3.

So what do we do about it? There are two general categories of solutions. The first is to make the numbers appear more manageable and the second is to actually change the numbers.

Mega Damage
The first solution could include changes like adding commas and the like to large numbers. We could also compress all of those 1000s to Ks and all of those 1,000,000s to Ms, much like we do with boss health today. Internally, we have been calling this the “Mega Damage solution” because instead of your Fireball hitting for 6,000,000 damage, it would hit for 6 MEGA DAMAGE (queue the Arcanite Ripper guitar solo).


Fig. 4. Mega Damage. Name/screenshot not to be taken seriously.

If we can make numbers such as floating combat text and boss health and item stats a little easier to read at a glance, then maybe we can endure numbers increasing exponentially for many digits to come. Now there are some very real computational limitations. PCs just can’t quickly perform math on very large numbers, so we’d have to solve all of those problems as well. Even today, tanks can hit the ten digit threat cap on some encounters.

Item Level Squish
The second solution actually involves compressing item levels, which is why we call it the “item level squish solution.” If we can lower stats on items, then we can lower every other number in the game as well, such as how much damage a Fireball does or how much health a gronn has. If you look at the item level curves, you can see that most of the growth occurs at the maximum character levels for the various expansions. This is because we keep rewarding more and more powerful gear to make the new raid tier and PvP season in an expansion reward significantly better gear than the previous one. However, those huge item level jumps don’t accomplish a lot once the character level has increased again. Very few players notice or care how much of an upgrade the Black Temple loot is over the Serpentshrine Cavern loot when their characters are level 80.

With that in mind, we could go back and compress the big item level increases that occur at level 60, 70, 80 and 85. The Mists of Pandaria gear would still grow exponentially from patch to patch, but the baselines would be a lot lower. Health could go from 150,000 back down to something like 20,000. The big risk of this approach is that players will log into the new expansion and feel nerfed… even if all the other numbers are compressed as well.

In other words, your Fireball will still do the same percentage damage to a player or a creature that it does today, but the number would be smaller. Logically, this seems like it would work, and it does. But it feels weird. When we tried this internally, everyone agreed that it just felt off throwing a spell for hundreds of damage when you are used to it doing thousands of damage.

I came up with an analogy -- even though I know logically that people drive on the left side of the street in the UK (we drive on the right side of the street in the US) and wouldn’t be surprised to see it, it would still feel really disorienting if I was driving in the UK and had to make a right-hand turn.


Fig. 5. Item level vs. character level before and after ‘squish’. Brown = vanilla. Green = BC. Blue = LK. Red = Cat

So Now What?
As I type this today, we haven’t decided on which if either solution we want to try. Maybe we’ll come up with yet another solution. Maybe it’s the kind of thing we can put off for another expansion so that players don’t have to adjust to the new talent system and a drastic item level compression at the same time. Or maybe it’s better just to pull the Band-Aid off fast and fix everything at once. Time will tell. I did, however, want to outline the problem lest any of you believe we don’t think there is a problem. There is. We’re just not sure of the best solution yet. If your answer is that stat budgets don’t have to grow so much in order for players to still want the gear, our experience says otherwise, and thus these proposed solutions exist. Your thoughts on the matter are valuable.

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. The last time he used “Fig. 5” in an article, it related fish predation to estuarine hydrocarbon contamination.

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Comments (1,639)

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Comsat
Defias Brotherhood
Comsat
20/11/2011
Mega Damage seems a bit odd...and lowering gear level will probably lead to a backlash. A bit hard decision to be honest...how about some other ideas ?
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Chuckup
Draenor
Chuckup
21/11/2011
@Comsat: A backlash ? Itll be the same just smaller , the whole world is shrinking ... not just your gear and damage ...
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Meloune
Nagrand
Meloune
20/11/2011
In my view, anything that is going to serve to create a balance game is good. Weapons and armour bonuses make the L85 play envorinment rediculous to compete against. To the point that BGs, even WG are not worth doing between 80 - 84. Also balancing will make the earlier level game content and instances more entertaining again.
I agree too, that the skill is not really required to much in the game anymore either, seems now that the ability to do repetative pug instances until one gets the right gear is all that is required. Where is the fun in that, doesn't matter how good it looks the first time after the 30th it is formulaic and dull.
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Andromedus
Mal'Ganis
Andromedus
19/11/2011
I agree with a few comments below, that perhaps rewarding players with such a high level of equipment was not the best idea, since it made the game mostly about gear hunting. Once you had a certain item level you would start raiding, and once you would have the gear from those raids you would take on the ultimate boss. I would prefer to see more skill requirement incorporated into the game. Meaning that for example even though someones gear level would not be as high as is usually expected of a player to go raid firelands, his skill of his character would make up for that. Regarding the proposed changes, personally I don't have anything against lowering the overall numbers, as long as it is within reason. I mean if we went from having 150 000 hp to have 2500, that would be slightly difficult to get used to, since it is the high numbers that make the player feel powerfull.
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Aranthios
Eonar
Aranthios
19/11/2011
@Andromedus: There is different degrees of difficulty all things in wow, they do not discriminate like u obviously do, having just 1 raid for skilled? Wow is incorporating 2 different raids for both skills, one for the skilled players with much better gear (guilds) and one for pugs, so i ask u, do u have a problem with anyone who does not meet your "skill" requirement?
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Blizzard only have themselves to blame for this predicament, the devs are not that naive that they did not see this coming few years before, and decided to do nothing. One would of thought that they would have the savvy to of tackled this problem before it got out of hand, and normally when someone in a business makes this much of an error and it is a massive error (or neglected to act on a foreseeable problem), they normally get replaced, so why not replace them with fresh blood and maybe they will be able to foresee any future problems that arrive instead of being lazy and expecting the players to come up with ideas to get them out the trouble they now face. :)
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Frankjensen
Azuremyst
Frankjensen
19/11/2011
Why blizz, why?
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Sinneo
Outland
Sinneo
19/11/2011
wtf? To much :o
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Fruktsaft
Silvermoon
Fruktsaft
19/11/2011
if this happens..better delete the accont
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Arkasìa
Azuremyst
Arkasìa
19/11/2011
Where the !@#$ are we going to?
Chest with 10k str? Jezus.
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Hidesato
Talnivarr
Hidesato
19/11/2011
@Miklor: Korea
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Killerkong
Aggramar
Killerkong
21/11/2011
@Miklor: its just a guess its probaly not going to be that op
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Hellzknight
Chamber of Aspects
Hellzknight
19/11/2011
10k str , 15k stamina. Sockets +400 str. LOL
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Ecchiboy
Stormreaver
Ecchiboy
18/11/2011
I have always thought that this is going to happen sooner or later on WoW. There is, however very simple solution to all these stat problems and you have to only fix it once. Move to a logarithmic scale and all your problems disappear. I don't think you should worry about rewarding players with big numbers or player's understanding of logarithmic scales. Players will use to a different system quite soon. You do want to switch stats into floating numbers instead of integers though! Of course the general damage calculating functions and such must be rewritten, but hey, that's a minor task. I can even help you modify your code if that's what it takes =P
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@Ecchiboy: I think u have the best idea yet, please give this person a job blizzard, i think he has come up with a much better idea than the devs :)
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Thabur
Magtheridon
Thabur
21/11/2011
@Eolis: I agree!
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Azastral
Nordrassil
Azastral
24/11/2011
As much as this would solve the number that is being displayed, and i assume you mean using a log base 10 rather than natural logs, this still doesnt then affect the core jump in levels with expansions, and would still leave the issue of a lvl 90 player being able to one hit a 85 player with possibly its -weakest- attack... people mentionned about battlegrounds and how futile it is going in at lvl 83 or 84 when a single lvl 85 can then just wipe the floor with you due to the leap in stats alone.
A linear approach would reduce that and also mean the re-introduction of ability playing more of a role in such events. a log scale would do nothing but disguise teh difference as being smaller in number to 95% of the players, whilst having no actual affect of the gap inbetween levels. You would still end up with a lvl 90 player being ridiculously stronger than one a few levels under as it would still have an exponetial basis. the "squish" or transference to a more linear scale is pretty much the best solution and would avoid this future chasm in level gaps from occuring even more than it already does with 80 to 85, it was there in 70 to 80 but not as apparent, with each expansion it gets bigger and bigger.@Ecchiboy:
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Smaugly
Ravencrest
Smaugly
18/11/2011
This is a really good idea. Big numbers are actually really hard to read when your either PvP'ing or PvE'ing. I had this discussion with my friends over skype about 2 years ago and I said its getting ridicoulisly high and it doesnt feel like the old WoW anymore. A good solution would be to do this and maybe put more focus into the graphics of the gear and weapons. People will stop thinking so much about the numbers and more about the gear. Do this and do better designs on models and weapons and this is a win-win.
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Shankshaft
Terokkar
Shankshaft
18/11/2011
I appreciated that what has fuelled WOWs commercial success is the ability to equip your character to levels that leave other players standing. You just have to do a random dungeon, and soak in the verbal insult you get if your character is not supercharged enough, to know that. In short, WOW is ruled by ego.

However, I like the idea of a balanced game where players can look each other in the eye. Perhaps even where a bit of skill and brains is what is needed to do a quest, dungeon or raid, rather than just playing enough to be sure your gear is so good that it is not even possible to even get your armour tarnished by another player or a boss.

Guess I am a bit of a niche gamer, but what I look for in a game is adventure and discovery, not players showing each other how big they are, in every sense.
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Karthoum
Sylvanas
Karthoum
18/11/2011
I would personally (and i think i speak for a vast majority) rather see a more balanced enviroment than one with huge numbers getting out of control, of course getting used to it would take a bit but i doubt it will be noticed after a few weeks. I suggest the hp range (even though it's not entirely relevant) at around 25k all the way to 40k, i think that's a pretty "perfect" amount for hp pools.
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Sanguinius
Dragonblight
Sanguinius
18/11/2011
the numbers are completely irrelevant... as it states if our numbers scale so will the bosses dmg.... the only problem that you are facing and as is gently mentioned in the original post is perception.. how will players now percieve their next dmg numbers. i remember being "awesome" at lvl 60 (vanilla) and scoring frost bolts that were hitting for +- 750 to 800 in full raid gear... then in TBC after getting some greens and scoring 3k plus hits and going OMG. So you created a WOW (no pun intended) factor and now for the first time getting regular crits over 100k.. it would feel weird if next expansion all of a sudden i was hitting mobs for 4 or 5k again... even though it is completely irrelevant... its just because of what people are used to and the expectation of higher numbers... if you can manage that there is not really a problem!
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Sugarplumb
Aerie Peak
Sugarplumb
18/11/2011
As one of the few casual players its not about the massive numers, they are proportional, i.e. wether 10k or 100k comes up is immaterial if all classes can achieve this.
The real issues is around the gap between what casuals can achieve and what dedicated players can achieve and balancing this out to improve the gaming experience for those with a life "outside of azeroth":)
So dont worry about what the numbers look like, they dont really mean that much, please concentrate on balancing certain classes and most importantly pleeeeeeeze make arena gear unequipable in random bgs or scalet it to ordinary honour gear dammage in random bgs
Pleeeese, pleeeeeese :D No more gy camping for the honour farmers and frustration for the casual player XD
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@Sugarplumb: w00t? thats dumb the arena gear is like a 5% boost in stats over the ruthless, just the issue is that a premade still over run a regular 90khpnew85's in a bg-.- who care its a 15-20 min painin the ahole, and you can make a premade ur self if u want revenge..
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I don't care about the numbers, but there was one specific thing I noticed someone else pointing out - doing end-tier for nothing. This is a game where you constantly advance (which is why people keep playing it). You constantly get better. With the introduction of item levels, I barely look at my stats - I don't even know how much stamina is on my chest for instance - and I don't care. What I care about is progressing and raiding, and PvP for that matter.

Someone noticed that in vanilla, you could still use your old gear up until TBC content started, and even in it - it was still something worth if you raided for ages. This is gone now. I was so !@#$ing disappointed when I started replacing my hardly farmed end-game gear with the first green or blue drop. So everyone has the same chance? Balls - I know it's a minority that has raided as much as I, and so you satisfy the greater part of your costumers, but it was cool to be able to use your TBC gear until 80.

Squish it if you want to, I don't care, it's only numbers, but I don't see the need for it, unless it really decreases performance. I like the HP / Mana as it is now tbh., but I wouldn't mind you changing it for whichever reason you find justifyable.
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Lemmyvu
Terokkar
Lemmyvu
18/11/2011
@Nastyme: I strongly agree with your point of view. All the gear that I had was replaced with greens after doing a couple of hours of questing. Just look at that chart. Why those lines have to be so aggressive? I understand that people feel the need to see a change when they upgrade something but this is just ridiculous. What shocked me the most was that I had to replace my gear before even hitting 81. I was actually expecting to at least go to 85 with it and then to slowly find upgrades in hcs, raids and so on. Now that I think about it, maybe that's why so many friends of mine left the game, cause the upgrades are too easy to get and way better and the feeling of hard work is gone.

Also big numbers are not a problem for most players but that doesn't mean no one cares about it - it's already starting to look like a cheap korean game, you know with millions of damage done in a single hit.
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@Lemmyvu: The stats have been getting out of control for sometime and i wager the devs knew this and did nothing until now, but i think bringing less tier level gear out as the raids are obsolete way too quick and maybe 4 per year, if it was say 2 per year (2 normal and 2 heroic sets) the levels could scale as is and give us time to fully enjoy the raids instead of feeling like we have to rush it, and yes i see that there is a massive difference with regards to stats from say a vanilla 58/59/6o to a bc 58/59/60, i dont know why they cant have bc greens starting at 60 instead of 58, wrath greens starting at 70 instead of 68 and the cata greens starting at 80 instead of 78, that alone will bring eth item level down by quite a lot, plus 2 tier sets out per year, they can then scale as they always do without much worry of the larger insane stats returning.

Im sure that reducing the stats by 50 percent in cata should suffice, maybe even to 60-70k in full 378 and rescale the stats/mobs accordingly to fit the area, and the only difference will be is the rescaled stats and the damage will be just the same percentage but reduced to allow for better quality of play.

Blizzard really need to chill with raiding gear as it feels like u have to gear up asap instead of just casually raiding and enjoying it, and the guilds who do heroic raids can actually feel proud to have achieved that goal and not just gear up and then a week later have to start all over again.

:)
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Unclebuck
Terenas
Unclebuck
18/11/2011
When a person needs to change things and dont get it right the first time, he dont know what he is doing and are not the right person for the job.
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Unclebuck
Terenas
Unclebuck
18/11/2011
Why does the stats have 10 000 + on the items?

After 3 expansions the items have 8-10 times higher stats than in vanilla wow.

With those stats he are showing we are talking 15 expansion before we get to see them.

Instead of changing much every expansion, why not try to fix the balance problem between the classes that exist today?
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Oxix
Ahn'Qiraj
Oxix
18/11/2011
Please, Ghostcrawler, there are MANY more important things in WoW than people fearing large numbers.

What about soloing? You say it is going to be fine - but how, as even now soloing Raggy in MC requires you to think a second. MoP items will bring like 1/2 of recent Cata stats (according to the figure), so most bosses will remain unsoloable. And soloing is a very interesting part of the game.

Ilvl squish is really unnecessary. If you feel large numbers offensive, you can shorten large numbered crits to make them pop up as "200k", not 200312 damage. Recount dps meter does that and I've never seen any problems with that system.
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Glowfeather
Neptulon
Glowfeather
18/11/2011
@Oxix: i dont think you fully understand that everything else would be lowered respectively, so what are you on about soloing for?
also, who really cares about big numbers? it just makes the game more manageable if there is a squish.
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@Oxix: Glowfeather is spot on, they r scaling the stats for both mobs and your toons, say if u was able to solo a wrath heroic, u would still be able to and your damage percentage woudl be just the same but reduced and the mobs health woudl be reduced too.

Blizzard are happy to let us solo old content, i learned how to tank on my paladin by soloing up heroic, since it was a complete face roll in wrath i got myself used to using the cool downs and get used to the new way prot paladins felt,

Also since the transmogrification is coming out in 4.3, its a chance to solo old content to get the gear to apply to your new armor so i highly doubt blizzard would deny us the ability to do that, and since only a very small percentage want and like to go back to old content the chances of getting a group woudl be astronomically low.

:)
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Glowfeather
Neptulon
Glowfeather
18/11/2011
oh and Bliz, i would squish it sooner rather than later because the nerf will only feel a lot harder in the future. even though its not a nerf its management. either that or you could make WoW2 and have your character able to be imported from WoW1 if you have maxed level. i know it is low chance of happening, just trying to give you more options to ponder on lol
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Glowfeather
Neptulon
Glowfeather
18/11/2011
i like the squish idea. its so much easier to manage in my head. at least i wont feel so bad getting crit for 50k if it would look like 5k lol i would still be kind of annoyed as its just under half my health in 1.3 secs (damn you arcane mage i met in tol borad the other day!) but i wouldnt feel so bad about it. but like you said he might....even though i'm dead lol. us pvpers wont mind, or at least SHOULDNT mind, we play to win not for huge numbers.
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Nemesistw
Runetotem
Nemesistw
17/11/2011
Can we have a game requirement squish as well so the entry requirements to the full game are vanilla and current expansion?
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Hidesato
Talnivarr
Hidesato
17/11/2011
I actually think it would be a good start if all damage and health numbers would be divided by 10, so If at level 85 you had 150'000 hp and hit for 40'000 damage you would have 15'000 hp and hit for 4'000...... scale this back to level 1 so if you had 150 hp at level 1 and hit for 100 you would now have 15hp and hit for 10. I think this would help a lot in stopping people feeling overwhealmed when reading floating combat text especially as all the numbers are going to get a lot bigger in the new expansion and it's kind of tough to follow the combat text as it is.
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Saevirus
Ravencrest
Saevirus
18/11/2011
@Hidesato: I really agree with Hidesato. This would feel just right. Start all over with MoP (hit-wise). That high hits are like 4k. Then the next expansion just go further, to like 20k and so on. When you have the same problem again (getting to big numbers), just divide it into 10 again. I can't imagine how you would feel nerfed in this way. And btw, If you think that small hits, like 7 today, cant be divided by ten. just make 1-4 into 0, and 5-9 into 1.
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Deliquente
Kor'gall
Deliquente
17/11/2011
I really do not know why all the excitment around this ilvl squish. For all you people who will feel nerfed with this possible change, let me ask you something; Do you remember the days of Burning Crusade? In my eyes it was THE best expansion and balance between levels and gear ilvl. And why would you feel nerfed, you still are a "hero" in Azeroth, everything will get squished proportionally with us! Really, isn't it odd for you that your crits went up from 10-15k in wotlk to 50-65k in cataclysm? Personally everytime i hit a crit like that a piece of my soul dies. Blizzard, please bring back the good old feeling of burning crusade, I for one will play the game and feel alot better about it than i feel now.

Cheers!
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Vedi
Auchindoun
Vedi
17/11/2011
What I suggest is to fix these issues is that itemlevel should scale linearly with level, i.e:
level 1 <-> itemlevels 1-9
level 2 <-> itemlevels 10-19
...
level 85 <-> itemlevels 850-859

Then implement a damage modification factor exp(0.01*(x-10y)) where x=player's average item level, and y=target's level. Health should not grow, but remain constant and around e.g. 1000.

In this system, green items have less crit, haste, spellpower, attack power etc, than epic items, but because of the scaling with itemlevel, people would gladly switch to greens in the next expansion.

As an example of how this works, currently I do around 50k frostbolt on 50health lvl1 mob. The important relation here is 50,000/50~1,000: My frostbolt kills the lvl1 1000 times. In my suggestion, my frostbolt would do around 250 on my own level target with 1000 health, and the lvl1 rabbit would ALSO have around 1000health, say 500! The amount of health is independent of level! But, if I cast the frostbolt on the poor lvl1 rabbit, it would do 250*exp(0.01*840)/500~1,000 times overkill, exactly as before. However, fights between large level differences would be the only situations where you would see huge numbers; in e.g. bossfights, my frostbolt would do around 185 damage, which is completely manageable.
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Vedi
Auchindoun
Vedi
17/11/2011
@Vedi: And actually, this system could completely remove the need of any item squish at start of pandaria. Since item levels are conveniently nearing 900, the damage modification factor could apply only above level 85. In this case, the amount of stamina stamina should not grow from current values when going into future expansions. Also the amount of intellect, crit etc would remain almost constant.
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Warup
Ravencrest
Warup
17/11/2011
@Vedi: I kinda like your idea and then I don't the thing is that you are (at least form how i have read it) working with a % scaled system, it would probably work just fine, but i think it would be wired to have that low HP and see a critter with 500 hp. But maybe that is just me :)