Coffee With the Devs — Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Coffee With the Devs — Mists of Pandaria Stat Changes

Our recent talent calculator changes led to some players asking questions about how character and item stats were changing, because some spell and talent tooltips suggest that changes are coming. We compiled this list to attempt to explain more of what’s coming in Mists of Pandaria. First of all, please note that we actually aren’t making many stat changes compared to the ones we made in Cataclysm (“armor penetration — gone!”). Second, the stuff below can get a little technical. If you’re not into the subtle nuance of gear itemization, then don’t worry about it — you don’t need to be to enjoy the expansion — but we know there are plenty of you who enjoy some nuts and bolts talk, so here we go.

Spell Resistance

  • Spell resistance is gone. There are no buffs that improve it and there shouldn’t be much, if any, spell resist gear left. We always thought the system was hard to understand and we weren’t getting much gameplay out of it. Now taking a step back, we can imagine how to develop a game where you’d want various forms of resist gear for certain situations and opponents. Resist gear could potentially be interesting, but it isn’t currently in World of Warcraft — the game has just been moving away from that sort of thing for years.
  • In the absence of spell resistance, there is no need for spell penetration on gear, so we’ll remove it as well.

Hit and Expertise

  • We still think having stats that can be capped is a good game design. Rather than focusing solely on stacking your best stat, you have to decide how valuable it is to hit your target before you go back to stacking your best stat. However, we are making some changes.
  • Hit and spell hit will no longer be separate stats. The hit stat negates melee miss and spell miss.
  • Expertise will negate dodge and spell miss, then parry.
  • Expertise will be listed as a percentage, just like hit, instead of having an intermediary stat.
  • We are normalizing hit with expertise, so that 1% of each stat will require the same amount of rating.
  • We are normalizing melee and spell hit, so that spell hit is equal to miss plus dodge.
    • Against an equal level creature: 6% spell miss, 3% melee miss, 3% dodge, 3% parry (from the front only), 3% block (from the front only).
    • Against a +1 level creature: 9% spell miss, 4.5% melee miss, 4.5% dodge, 4.5% parry (from the front only), 4.5% Block (from the front only).
    • Against a +2 level creature: 12% spell miss, 6% melee miss, 6% dodge, 6% parry (from the front only), 6% Block (from the front only).
    • Against a +3/boss level creature: 15% spell miss, 7.5% melee miss, 7.5% dodge, 7.5% parry (from the front only), 7.5% block (from the front only).
  • Ranged attacks will be able to be dodged. Hunters will benefit from expertise and will have it on their gear, which will also allow hunters and Enhancement shaman to share gear more easily.

Block

  • The chance to block will be handled by a separate combat roll for each attack that is not avoided. In other words, we first determine if an attack misses, or is dodged or parried. If it is not, then the attack has a chance to be blocked.
  • This gives block a consistent value, regardless of avoidance. Currently block becomes more valuable the more you have.
  • Block will also have diminishing returns, much like dodge and parry. This doesn’t mean that the value of block will go down as you get more block. It means that it won’t go up by as much when you get more block.
  • We don’t expect Protection warriors or paladins to get “block capped” other than during temporary effects, such as mastery procs on trinkets. Block tanks will be balanced around this change. Our intent is to make playing block tanks more fun, not to nerf them.
  • Also notice how Shield Block and Shield of the Righteous have changed in Mists.

Criticals

  • All spells and abilities will crit for double damage, baseline. There are a few exceptions where crits can get larger, but the default is x 2.0 for everyone.
  • This means that Enhancement shaman spells and rogue poisons will crit for double damage. Rogue poisons will also use the melee hit chance.

Resilience

  • We are renaming this stat to “Defense (PvP)” or possibly “PvP Defense.” All players will have 30% base Defense, the same way all characters have some base Stamina.
  • PvP gear will have Defense on it, as well as a new stat, “Power (PvP).” Power increases the damage you do to other players as well as the healing you do to other players in PvP situations.
  • If you have a lot of Power, you’ll do more damage to other players, but they likely have Defense as well. If you fight players in lots of PvE gear, they’ll take more damage. Likewise, a player in PvE gear won’t have enough Power to effectively penetrate your Defense.
  • The names PvP Power and PvP Defense may not be final, but we’re leaning towards going with stat names that are obviously PvP-related, rather than “fluffier” names that might not be as easy to grasp. We want it to be clear to players that neither Power nor Defense have any relevance when fighting creatures, such as in dungeons or raids.
  • PvP gear will be lower in item level than PvE gear of an equivalent tier, however the Power and Defense stats will make sure that PvP gear is more powerful in PvP (both offensively and defensively) than PvE gear. In our budgeting system, the PvP stats will be free rather than causing other stats, such as Strength or haste, to be smaller as a result of including Power or Defense.
  • The goal of this change is to make it easier for a PvP player to participate in PvE, or for a PvE player to get started in PvP. Currently, we feel it is too large a barrier to go from one to the other, and the result has been that we see more and more players choosing to focus exclusively on only PvP or PvE. In earlier expansions, it was more feasible to use PvE gear in Arenas or Battlegrounds until you acquired the more useful PvP gear. The same was true of being able to use your PvP gear in a dungeon or raid until you acquired something better. In Cataclysm, stepping into PvP with no PvP gear would result in a player being so ineffective that it was difficult to even make progress towards acquiring PvP gear.
  • For the higher-end of PvP or PvE (say Gladiators or heroic raiders), we believe those players will still gravitate towards the dedicated PvP or PvE gear. It is the players who are working towards those two end games that will benefit more from some cross over.

That’s a lot of information, and it probably sounds more set-in-stone than it really is. We’ll continue to iterate as players poke holes in our ideas, tell us what is working out and what isn’t, and finally get to experience it first hand in beta.

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. He didn’t name Mogu’dar, Blade of a Thousand Slaves, but he wishes he had.

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Comments (290)

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Kdmmontana
Runetotem
Kdmmontana
29/08/2012
"Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. He didn’t name Mogu’dar, Blade of a Thousand Slaves, but he wishes he had."

Thats because he is a useless designer. End of story. Another tool who destroys good games with mindless ideas and suave backdrops. Another misplaced individual who thinks his decisions are the best, because he thought them up. Fire and replace him.
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Carnatus
Draenor
Carnatus
29/08/2012
@Kdmmontana: He has the job, and you don't, so he obviously did something right.
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Kissmyshield
Jaedenar
Kissmyshield
26/09/2012
@Carnatus: having a job at gaming company is great indeed, but in your narrow world ..its everything..but flash news its not.

everyone entitled to say whatever they want.
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Damofez
Shadowsong
Damofez
27/08/2012
i just want to point out that theoretically pvp gear doesnt even NEED any item level as its pvp gear it should be used in pvp situations (arena BGs etc) the problem with pvp gear having ilvl is ppl use it for pve content and its been mentioned a few times in this thread they use 377 pvp gear to 'cheat' into HCs and make that group suffer because they dont have the proper stats to deal the damage. Lowering the ilvl on pvp gear is a good start but i still think it should be removed entirely as its simply not needed
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Tjibaeroin
The Sha'tar
Tjibaeroin
27/08/2012
@Damofez: I so agree I so agree...
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Wyspa
Frostwhisper
Wyspa
28/08/2012
@Damofez: Very true I second that!
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Seppuko
Outland
Seppuko
11/09/2012
@Damofez:
But that is exactluy what blizz want: -"The goal of this change is to make it easier for a PvP player to participate in PvE, or for a PvE player to get started in PvP. Currently, we feel it is too large a barrier to go from one to the other."

They want pvp:ers to cheat their way into HC's and for PvE:ers to make the team suffer in bg's...

Its freaking hilarious to think that blizz and its customers are soo far apart that they cant even lvl out on such a fundamental issue...

How about ASKING the gamers instead of having a freaking game designer get high and make !@#$ up!?
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Unira
Ravencrest
Unira
27/08/2012
Finaly good news :-)
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Grimmel
Frostmane
Grimmel
26/08/2012
I hope there will be rating requirement on PvP gear again. As it stands, it's WAY easier to get BiS PvP gear than it is to get BiS PvE gear. As a person who does a bit of both, I actually want some incentive to obtain some rating in PvP. I have no need for 2200 to obtain T2, as I've got HC Gurth.
I understand that they're nerfing PvE gear in PvP, but, as Ghostcrawler states: "For the higher-end of PvP or PvE (say Gladiators or heroic raiders), we believe those players will still gravitate towards the dedicated PvP or PvE gear. It is the players who are working towards those two end games that will benefit more from some cross over."
As it stands, it seems the only reason to even think about getting rating is for some nice cosmetic Elite gear, and a T2 Wep. Both of these reasons are outweighed by
#1: Transmogs
#2: Heroic Raiding Weps

TL;DR: No rating requirement on PvP items makes them easy to obtain, and removes incentive from staying in a solid team to gain some rating.
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Asdewew
Kazzak
Asdewew
06/07/2012
I just feel i gotta say this before i go insane.

First of, all you people that say that u should make a dual spec thingy , so u suddenly get pvp stats, thats the most retarded thing i have ever seen , why should all you people have it so easy to get pvp gear and not work for it?In pve you have to work to get ur gear, instead of QQing about classes beeing to OP and stuff, then start to farm gear for urself.

And seeing people writing : oh myh, but how do you expect us to get pvp gear when we die so fast and easy against other people that have pvp.
Well , tbh, stop crying and suck it upp, if u dont want to farm honor for pvp gear (like u have to now) then i say : Go do random HCs, farm justice points then convert em to Honor points ..BOM problem solved.

Dont make pvp gear easy to get, its just stupid! and if u think ur having problmes with pvping , then it might not be the gear but ur skills...

Yes i said it!
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Venombladé
Ragnaros
Venombladé
06/07/2012
so, i get increased dmg and reduce dmg which means i wil still do the same dmg? i dont get this tbh.
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Frankcoef
Aerie Peak
Frankcoef
25/08/2012
@Venombladé: I think its more to make a big different to pve and pvp. and u can't pvp in pve gear in 5.0.4 at all. now a days. people just take 45% lesser dmg if full geared but still hit crap against pve. and pve nukes pvp geared people.

in 5.0.4 pve won't hit crap to pvp platers
and pvp players will hit more against pve geared players.

DAST IS EIN BINGO!
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Benyed
Mazrigos
Benyed
20/06/2012
i think its ok the way it is.
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Bigtruck
Darkmoon Faire
Bigtruck
16/06/2012
If Spell resistance dissapears

What will happen with spell penetration than ?
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Stinglash
Moonglade
Stinglash
15/06/2012
Could you add a paid class change to the game? It's irrelevant here but I'd like either new classes or that. I bet some other people want more too.
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Kissmyshield
Jaedenar
Kissmyshield
26/09/2012
@Stinglash: i smell Fotm lol
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Drazekiel
Emerald Dream
Drazekiel
23/04/2012
I really dont get why the devs make some of these changes and it makes me wonder which UNI they graduated from...Sure some are good.. but some just dont make sense..in anyway shape or form..

Two things I think they should remember sometimes.. "if it aint broke dont fix it!" and "Why re invent the wheel ?" They are two things that any decent programmer or game designer should always remember..

And yes I am aware that some things in game are broken.. my point is they tend to change things that 'don't' need to be changed.. and they change them in radical ways as well sometimes.. and always to make the game dumbed down... or at least that is what it appears to do... Sure cata dumbed down a few things and yes I agree that the talents comming from Wtolk to cata did 'need' to be pruned.. that many talent points interacting with one another would be a very delicate thing.. prone to breaking and taking much time to tweak and fix.. So, I aplaud what they done comming into Cata.. the changes annoyed some.. but they worked out pretty well.. Sure some classes and specs still were not perfect.. But I think had they been given the appropriate time and tweaking they could have bee nmade to work.. priests for example I thought worked very well.. many points you can put int where you want for your playstyle.. and several ways that you can specc effectively.. Sure with the release of MOP it would have meant another 5 levels and more talent points.. But not that many.. I dont think the trees should have been changed again until level 100.. But unfortunatly its too late for that now.. I think anyway..:S I understand where they are comming from {at times} but with regards the actual changes they have made to talent trees, and stats I am not optimistic they have made their choices well.. Like many things Blizzards dev team have done of late 'It looks good on paper' , the thing is is often doesnt work how they envisioned it.. and they never really 'seem' to learn...[no offence meant].. They have made some very good and some bold choicees and changes.. but also and quite frankly - some 'bloody awful' ones..
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Toothgrinder
Al'Akir
Toothgrinder
04/04/2012
Why do you need to make the game easier? For who? Like pvp being more about time instead of timing and skill...meh
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@Toothgrinder: completly agree .. the game is more li for brainless ppl atm .. this is annoying seeing your fav game being destroyed this way.. there is no more world pvp/arenas are more time then action and brain useing
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Kissmyshield
Jaedenar
Kissmyshield
26/09/2012
@Toothgrinder: get over 1550 and ppl might believe you
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Masztaar
Frostwhisper
Masztaar
15/03/2012
As an Enhancement shaman who has played the same spec since the betas of 2004, I applaud these changes and thank you for them. However there is one thing you need to dig in to wich is EXTREMELY important for the survival of this already fairly impopular spec: The searing totem mechanic. There is nothing more annoying or fun destroying than this mechanic, as it hardly ever works as advertised. Its impossible to control, it bugs AT LEAST 90% of the time on fights like spine of deathwing, and needs to be redropped about 3-4 times before it starts attacking on fights like ultraxion. I'm not asking for much here, all we want is a guarantee that Lava Lash is able to hit for maximum potential on fights that are not single-target (try 90% of them), without having to hold off on it. I want my mistakes to be my own and I want to be in control of my character, not that an obsolete mechanic ruins it for me. Lava Lash is on a set cooldown, and there is no reason whatsoever that it shouldnt hit for maximum potential just because we have to switch targets; This is extremely, EXTREMELY, unfair to us, as we are already below most, if not all classes in PVE damage dealing.

Please don't be stubborn on this and argue that its a fun mechanic or idea, it's not, just check the forums. That said, you would just need to change it a tiny bit for it to be working and fun - such as having a buff stack on US in order for it to ramp up (so we can targetswitch). There are tons and tons of clever/brilliant solutions to this, just read the "Wish list" you asked us to post earlier. If its one thing that seems to be unanimous with Enhancement players, its the agreement that this mechanic needs to stop preventing us from being all we can be. Thanks.
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Brund
The Sha'tar
Brund
14/03/2012
All very interesting, but I am not sure of the benefits for players.
Cata made stats easier for devs, but took a while to 'fix' those unpredictable consequences again.
Vengance was a disaster, blogs saw it coming a mile off, it never got balanced and was awfull for levelling (please pay more attention to levelling, as a Prot warrior it wasnt easy). worse it led to not using defensive things to booost vengence (very intuitive)
Savege defence (bear) was painfully obviously flawed and never really worked. the perfect tank model of frenzied regeneration, could not be adequately used whilst levelling. And Block on a second table is a different way of adding deminishing returns on 1 table....

The point is, Rate of Change !
Stick to things that really benefit players, like play content, game desing, quests (that still keep coming with patches). Smoth the edges of mechanics by all means, but stick with whats known to more or less work, and make it work. Your history of big changes and shifting problems to other places is plain to see.
Stop. Think. Make small adjustments. Focus on the game and not on mechanics.

oh, and make tank dps in the 60-70% of DPS spec range. They wont replace dps in groups and will be able to play on their own without spending 4 mins per mob.

also, off topic, phasing is clever and cool, but it makes grouping and non solo play impossible.
Jus me 2 copper..

Jobs a gud un !
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Davman
Deathwing
Davman
14/03/2012
Why not make gear like dual spec, so you click a button and your PvE gear tranforms into PvP gear and visa versa, so your gear has hidden stats that can be activated depending on your requirements.
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Shaéke
Chamber of Aspects
Shaéke
14/03/2012
@Davman: Can't believe nobody's thought of this before. It's brilliant! Also, this seems to fix Roguesalot's comment. (5 down) Anyone disagree?
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Brogash
Aggramar
Brogash
15/03/2012
@Shaéke: How about this for even more sense - Just remove PVP Stats. Exactly the same outcome, no weird spec-shift gear.
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Cécíl
Kor'gall
Cécíl
15/03/2012
@Brogash: I agree 100%. Why should there be stuff like Power & Defense. Doesn't really make any sense to me.
So as I said, I agree with you Brogash.
-Cécíl
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Solethief
Outland
Solethief
14/03/2012
i mainly do pvp and i get bored of it after the easly aquired gear thats why you see me with pve gear on it gives more challange to the game to aquire pve. So what im trying to say is make it harder for pvp to be gained
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Lusun
Sporeggar
Lusun
14/03/2012
Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft. He didn’t name Mogu’dar, Blade of a Thousand Slaves, but he wishes he had.
And i wish you will come with great ideas for gameplay, lore, pvp balance and for my fury warrior(i still dont see intercept in MoP, or noncombat charge).
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Papertonk
Twisting Nether
Papertonk
12/03/2012
too be honest, what they say about it being impossible too go from pve>< pvp is a little wrong, whenever i lvl my alts i always buy full 377 pvp gear just too have enough gear too skip the lower heroics. and tbh it is so much easier and quicker too obtain high tier pvp gear then it is too obtain pve gear of same tier, (example. 1650 weekly conq cap, while valor is 1000, and same price) so many people go for the higher tier pvp gear just too get the gear required too go normal raiding or other things (possible with honour/conq gear) thus exploiting the possibilites of the quicker pvp gearing.

so if you ask me i think the next pvp stats like power and defence should give a much bigger bonus towards players, but reduce stats that are beneficial for pve, so a high geared pvper would do (example) 12k dps in pvp, but only 3-4k dps in pve, and a opposite for pve players. that way you would make sure that people wont choose the easy way around and skipping too many dungeons and low tier heroics. and thus skipping less of the game's content.

just my opinion

ps. please leave comment and ideas around this.
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Roguesalot
Khadgar
Roguesalot
13/03/2012
@Papertonk: 12k in PvP and only 3-4k in PvE? That seems a bit silly considering mobs have MUCH higher health than players. That would be punishing the whole group for having one player in PvP gear. But I see where you're coming from, as being able to get full Conquest point gear and going into Raids and HC's and doing the most DPS there seems a bit unfair to the people who are focusing on PvE.
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Roguesalot
Khadgar
Roguesalot
11/03/2012
I have to say (and this has probably been said by lots of people already, I just can't be bothered to scroll down and read them all) that your actually making it Impossible for PvE players to get into PvP. If the change which adds PvP defence and PvP power goes ahead, players with lots of PvE gear will find it impossible to actually kill anyone, yet you seem to think it will make it easier... I fail to see your logic in that. That may just be me not seeing something, but to me, that's what it looks like.
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YAh all this sounds amazing lol. But Will every class have equal chance to get top rating lets say in Arena? I doubt that and reason why is: I'M A HUNTER!!!!!!
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Naturestrike
Arathor
Naturestrike
09/03/2012
They are making the game more like Guild Wars 2 & Tera Online maybe better looking characters ans lesser lags on the realms and more room for new spells and abilities.
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Starsparkle
Nordrassil
Starsparkle
09/03/2012
So let me get this straight - Blizz are removing Arcane/Frost/Fire/Nature/Shadow Resistance? If that the case will Belfs, Nelfs and the other races get a new racial? and whats going to Happen to Resistance Aura? that will leave just 4 Auras - what if you have 4-5 paladins in a 25 man? it just seems paladins buffs etc are getting wasted, Druids too....
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Ancuda
The Sha'tar
Ancuda
09/03/2012
More easy to share gear between classes is a good thing ? Yup, because we love when you have more people to roll need for gear you need.
Now I am starting to suspect that their definition of fun is "have your abilities a much better chance to worth nothing". Because isnt fun when you have only to worry about the way you play, but it is fun to worry about the weather the sucessful playing will pay out or not. Is that it ?
So in short, prot warriors in pvp are mostly a "tackler" class, which hardly actually kill even a single target of the similar gear lvl will be more vulnerable ? Because prot warrior have the same damage output as paladin tanks ... and heal themselves like them too .. right ?
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Vanidar
Bronzebeard
Vanidar
08/03/2012
I hope there'll be some compensation to the races with a resistance Racial, otherwise it's going to be another stab at many of them.
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Gveni
Stormreaver
Gveni
07/03/2012
''Ranged attacks will be able to be dodged. Hunters will benefit from expertise and will have it on their gear, which will also allow hunters and Enhancement shaman to share gear more easily.''

Nice nerf to hunters again..
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Zaydon
Nagrand
Zaydon
08/03/2012
@Gveni: QQ?
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@Zaydon:
Thats not a QQ. If you have a hunter you would understand. As from now Crits will do double damage as a start. Making hunters benefit from Expertise is in fact a nerf in our crit rating. And I tell you its big one. Since base Crit rating is being set to double damage, that means we would crit more, just as Feral Druids and Rogues do now too. Problem is, that with Expertise I as hunter will have to stack it and loose crit rating and considering ferals and Rogues I will loose much more of the same Crit rating because if you dident know, ferals and rogues have in fact increased dodge chance. So yes it is a nerf
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Eniti
Lightbringer
Eniti
10/03/2012
@Elme: that is QQ. You dont even know how they will balance it. so you are complaining that a new stat that hunter tbh should have, becuse a ranged class with a hit cap of 8 is op! See what i did there? I respond to qq with qq.