Coffee With The Devs – Threat Level Midnight

Threat revisited
One of the fun things about working on an MMO is that the game design will evolve over time, and you have the opportunity to make changes to reflect those design shifts. (And yes, we know that it can sometimes evolve too quickly).
Back in December, I wrote a blog about our vision for how threat should work. Since then, the game and the community have continued to progress and the designers have found ourselves changing our minds about the role of threat. Enough that we’re planning to apply a hotfix this week to change how threat works.
Why have threat?
Threat’s role, just so we’re all on the same page, is to make fights more interesting. Tanks spend a lot of effort staying alive, but they aren’t under immediate threat of death one-hundred percent of the time. Plus, their staying alive is also dependent on their healers and other external cooldowns. We have always been concerned that if threat was not a big part of tanking gameplay that tanks might get bored just waiting around until it was time to use a cooldown. Likewise, if DPS and healers had no risk of being attacked themselves then the sense of danger facing a powerful creature could erode. Furthermore, every character’s toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP. It’s fun for a mage to Frost Nova an attacker and Blink away. It’s fun for a hunter to Feign Death. Yes your life would be a lot easier without threat mechanics, but our goal isn’t to make fights as easy as possible. Our job is to make fights fun. Having too much to manage might not be fun, but it’s also not fun to be bored.
That’s been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it:
Why not have threat?
Throttling
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As I said in the previous blog, it’s not fun to feel throttled. It’s not fun for the Feral druid to stop using special attacks in order to avoid pulling aggro. It’s fun to use Feint at the right time to avoid dying, but it’s not fun for Feint to be part of your rotational cooldown. We want you to spend most of your effort trying to overcome the dragon or elemental, not struggling against your own tank.
Tanks are busy
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I’d also argue that our encounters aren’t really boring these days. We ask tanks to do a lot – everything from picking up adds, to moving bosses around, to staying out of fires, to providing interrupts, in addition to the classic tank roles of staying alive and generating threat.
Threat stats aren’t fun
We put threat stats (hit and expertise for the most part) on tanking gear, because without those, tanks would be limited to choosing from among mastery, dodge, and parry. (In the current state of itemization, you are rarely choosing more Strength, Agility, Stamina, or armor.) Druids can’t parry, and even for the plate users, there is a tight relationship between dodge and parry, and even mastery for the warrior and paladin. That gets us dangerously close to the old model of stacking a single uber stat (like Stamina or defense), which makes gearing choices too simplistic for tanks. Did something drop? Okay, put it on. (Contrast this to a DPS caster who might want more or less hit or might favor haste over crit, etc.)
We want threat stats to be interesting, but the reality is that they aren’t. Any decent tank will usually choose survivability stats over threat stats. Back in the day when taunts and interrupts could miss, you could argue hit was marginally useful. But in a world where hit is really just for generating threat, it isn’t very exciting and tanks get understandably emo when we put too much on their gear. (DKs are somewhat of an exception in a good way – more on that in a sec.) We do see some players try and get excited about threat stats or even proud of their ability to generate threat, but overall we feel like threat stats are a trap, and it’s usually the case that improving your survivability will have a better net impact on your group’s progression.
We don’t need a more complex UI
We have threatened for years (see what I did there?) to build in some kind of threat tracking tool into WoW. But is that really good for the game? Do we really need yet another UI element for players to look at instead of looking at the actual game world? We know many raiders in particular use third-party threat mods today, but that has really been borne out of necessity rather than a sense that watching threat is super compelling gameplay. (When we say “super compelling gameplay” you can mentally replace that with “fun.”)
Dungeon Finder
I know this bullet will be a point made by players critical of this change, but I would feel remiss in not bringing it up. We want it to be a positive experience when Dungeon Finder matches experienced players with newer players. The skill and gear of the former can help make up for that of the latter. Who better to teach you boss mechanics than players who have done the fights before? Even better, the gear of a veteran tank can make up for the less powerful gear of a beginning healer (which doesn’t necessarily mean a noob – it could be the alt of a very experienced raider).
However, this system fails and often spectacularly so when it’s the tank who is the undergeared player. Even if a competent healer can keep the undergeared tank alive, the fully raid-geared DPS spec is going to constantly be on the verge of pulling threat. That’s not an issue of skill. It’s just numbers. It’s also not a problem that is easy to overcome for either the overgeared DPS or the undergeared tank – it’s just not a lot of fun for anyone.
So now what?
Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we’ve gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in a hotfix this week to where it’s generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don’t need them.
It’s an important distinction that the concept of “aggro” will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature’s attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we’ll have to make further adjustments.)
We like abilities like Misdirect. It’s fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don’t like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank’s threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.
Upcoming changes
Here are the specific changes you’re likely to see:
- Hotfix: The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.
- In an upcoming patch: Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.
Long-term changes
You could argue that once threat is very easy to manage that a warrior tank could just go AFK. In reality, given today’s boss encounters, an AFK warrior would end up standing in the wrong place, missing a tank transition, or otherwise do something or fail to do something that wipes the party or raid.
That said, we ultimately don’t want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We’ll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn’t mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.
Death Strike consumes resources to help the tank survive. We toyed at one point with the paladin Holy Shield being a Holy Power consumer and we think we could do so again. Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you’re supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn’t feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic. We could make Shield Block cost rage, and change Protection warrior rage income such that they had to manage rage, the way Fury and Arms warriors now must do. If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons. This is a bigger change than it seems though. We don’t want a model where the Prot warrior ignores Shield Slam, Devastate and Revenge (since threat isn’t a big deal) in order to bank all rage for Shield Block (because survival is). Imagine a rage model where you always had enough rage for your core rotational abilities (they could be cheap or even generate rage), so that you could funnel most of your rage into Shield Block when survival mattered and Heroic Strike when it did not. Redesigning Savage Defense to make it a rage sink is an even bigger change, but we think there is an opportunity there to make the rotation more interesting for druids (and all tanks really). Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living.
This is the kind of design for which we’re really going to need a lot of feedback once it hits. We can implement and verify empirically how much threat a tank generates, but it’s hard for us to replicate the experience of all of the various raiding groups and dungeon parties out there. We invite you to try out the immediate and eventually the long-term changes when they are available and let us know how they feel. Do you miss the threat game? Are you bored when tanking now? Conversely, with the changes, is tanking more fun for you? Does this new implementation of Vengeance feel better? Some systems design calls we can make just by processing numbers, and some are more squishy and involve a lot of gut checks and wishy-washy “but how does it FEEL?” language. Messing with this kind of thing is definitely somewhere in the middle.
Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft, and lead eater at the dinner table.

Darkmoon Faire
Lightbringer
Ravencrest
Yes and just sticking an extra 200% on threat on ALL classes seems really bloody methodical, I LIKE it when the occasional mob runs away from me, it’s FUN to have to do something about it not just stand there.
People don't want to be tank because they don't hit as hard, which is just the way of the world (of Warcraft), people like big numbers that’s it, that’s all it is.
Stop try to woo people into tanking, with magical bags of BS, and broken IWIN button mechanics because frankly it’s umm making not want to tank anymore.
I could list off 101 more things I’m not happy about but I would risk becoming what I hate.
Burning Blade
This is funny. How many tanking gear has expertise or hit rating ? You can't list more than 5 for pre-raiding. You need to modify reforging so it doesn't lower a stat and put another. It should completely switch stats. This is a game, not a math problem. I shouldn't sit and calculate/plan gear not to get flamed because someone attacks the wrong mob which I have the least aggro and complain "WORSE TANK EVER!". You must get gearing for tanks not challenging as much as DPS, in fact, DPS should be bloody tough to gear. Because sorry, even you can get bad dps, it's still easier to play than tanking or healing. You can even dps in tank gear when you have reforging.
Simply, tanks need expertise and hit rating on a talent. Keep in mind, we are not tanking for fancy gear or stats. We are playing a game with others and we assuma a role. And most of us are happy protecting a group so it's not about gear or stats. It's the role.
Seeing Threat Level is most useful for dpsers, because they bloody need to stop dpsing if they are about to overaggro.
Aggramar
As for what the role of a tank is, it's not sitting there taking hits from the boss trying to survive. It's about making sure that the boss is hitting you, and not the rest of the group. Making sure the tank survives is the job of the healer.
A good tank used to be able to stack complete avoidance (none of that stamina crap, all you need is a health pool to survive the boss's biggest hit, the healer should top you off before the next one comes) and still maintain aggro, especially if the dps knew how to manage their threat. A poor tank had to trade avoidance for threat generation stats like strength or hit, incidentally making these tanks harder to keep alive (see the trade-off between avoidance and hit there, it has always been there)
What this change does is simply giving the tanks even more reason to stack avoidance over threat generation. And perhaps even more alarmingly, makes the tanking game more accessible to those who have no clue about it (and yes this is a bad thing, we've all been there when the tank has no idea about the tactics or tanking in general, other then "spam devestate". this will multiply these occurences)
Mazrigos
The Sha'tar
however take druids frenzied regeneration. this doesnt work while levelling atm, there isnt enough rage. This is a mechanic of rage dump as a survival tactic... not a problem in raid, but shifting a problem elsewhere.
Threat doesnt work badly atm.just in certain situations.. is vengance the problem then ?
and back to bears, savage defence [SD] (and DK 'shield' aparently) are both suffering from an interaction with vengeance And the fact that they rely on a fixed value rather than % like the blocks do. This block change to % was to avoid problems like we will have (as ilvl rises) with SD.
Nice idea with the active defence, but please consider that the big changes make new problems as every expansion has shown. perhaps just stick to minor tuning and keep big development invested in new ideas for gameplay rather than fundamental player mechanics.
good luck anyway
Silvermoon
Aszune
Argent Dawn
Silvermoon
I've been lvling a Duid tank (broken as it is) and the only time I have any issues is on large pulls where DPS is going all out spamming AOE. on a single target boss it is virtually impossible for anyone to steal aggro
Now I am seriously not one of the better tanks out there, but this change seriously isn't necesary... if there is a problem with tanking in the random dungeon finder then add a tank buff just like there is a dps buff in all the different zones already. Or maybe give tanks better gear in their random bags so they can stay geared easier. This "fix" you are talking about is too drastic IMO
Outland
Ahn'Qiraj
Aszune
I do like the idea of the tank also performing good dps rather than half of 1/3 of the damage dealers. Currently i can do 10-11k dps and that makes me push for a more equal stance with the dps'ers and i wouldn't want to afk if it made a difference to an encounter how much damage i could dish out.
Maybe thats somewhere you can make tanking more engaging?
Wildhammer
Aszune
In vanilla this was the hunter/warlock problem, these two classes could solo to max level and enterd end game group content with no clue about agro management. Now everyone levels up in groups but the old school runs are so trivial that still people expect to just run in and pew pew like the hunters and 'locks did. Hunters were particularly bad because feign death let them avoid consequences of their poor play, we'd wipe because the hutner pulled agro but he didn't see how it could be a problem because he survived. This is a bad (and I hope temporary) solution, it reduces the need for player interaction, removes a balance tool and removes an encounter design tool.
The Sha'tar
Scarshield Legion
The Sha'tar
Genjuros
oh and bliz one mech u shud use is a rated dung/raid or tanks worldwide will have to give possible party/raid members iq tests before the instance...
Anachronos
Dide not have huge problems before the increase but it's good to see this is buffed a little. There's to many people out there that do not understand the upll agro mechanic of the game
Scarshield Legion
Scarshield Legion
Genjuros
Shadowsong
Shadowsong
Personally i think that the problem was the burst threat of some classes where you do not have a rogue or a hunter in the party or where they refuse to help out the tank.
Raising threat makes those spells kinda useless, which in my opinion would be ashame.
Problems i encountered were mostly with arcane mages and dps warrirors.
I also know that hit an expertise are not as important as with dps, but having just 3% hit does make you miss a few hits and i noticed that for me an ideal hit was about 6%. nothing is more annoying than missing your first hammer of the righteous on a pack. and expertise i noticed that 18% is pretty ideal, hardly seen any dodge now.
For me as a paladin:
Now when i got to the point where i got an average ilevel of 350 and up i noticed i hardly had those problems with threat anymore towards any class. And getting a good weapon was the most important part of it, because damage and thus threat is based on the output damage of a weapon it is then altered by the amount of attackpower you have(if I am correct). therefore i think the Vengeance change to not build up but isntantly be maxed sounds like a good idea to me.
Much of it is common sense if you ask me. If you know that threat is based on damage and you know that the abilities you use is based on the output damage of your weapon and altered by the amount of attack power (paladins use spellpower which is based on attack power other classes might work different) than you also know how to increase your threat. In my honest opinion if you are not doing threat enough, three things can go wrong. Either your gear is not good enough, there is something wrong with your rotation(including not pressing enough buttons constantly) or you just haven't read up on how to tank.
I haven't tanked since before the hotpatch, but i was already on 30k or more threat per second, only problem was that i just got there after about 10 seconds, when i had 3x holy power and a proc called Sacred Duty i believe. After that there was no way any dps could gain threat on me anymore. Now I know there are a lot of paladin tanks that don't even know about the sacred duty proc. well it is a proc that you can get from either a judgement or avenger's shield. What it does is make your shield of Righteoud a 100% guaranteed crit. and again you also need enough hit, because missing that 100% guaranteed crit on your shield of righteous with 3 holy power up is no fun for your threat. Because for me my theat goes up for about 10k if that one works. Getting 3 holy power, a sacred duty proc and a full vengeance aligned together takes about 10 seconds.
So all in all i think it is a matter of people not knowing how tanking works for their class.
Maybe it is Blizzard to blame for the lack of information given about how it works in a whole picture. It is also the player to blame that if he or she wants to play tank they should read up on how it works for that class.
Ohh and i saw someone mention that waiting for a proc on avengers shield is annoying, however the only thing it does is makes it cost no mana, if you have enough mana there is no reason you should not use it without a proc, it is also an extra interrupt and it does a fair amount of threat. only if you encounter mana issues after a while you might only want to use it when it procs.
Also to prevent mana issues, make sure you have a lot of mastery and use judgement everytime it gets out of cooldown.
Jdgement will give you a certain amount of mana per (attempt to) use.
If you block, parry or dodge you get mana. so with enough block (parry and dodge are not worthwile to stack to solve mana issues) you get plenty of mana and healer is happy aswell, mastery gives you a lot of block, so you do not get much damage and you get more mana.
Again if you lack mana, your gear is either too low for the type of dungeon or your stats are not good on it.
Again reading up solves a lot.
I also heard complains about AOE threat for paladins. well there is a talent that makes your concecration cost a lot less mana, use it and with hammer of the righteous which hits all targets nowadays and holy wrath which stuns them aswell (so use it at the moment all mobs are in range to avoid them from running and slam them all with a hammer afterwards and i guarantee you that if you have enough damage output they will not run to other dps and if a full raidgeared person is attacking the wrong one, then you should lose only one target to that char, let that char die and taunt it back, ress him when you are done with the pack and nicely say that he had better take your target as main target. 99 out of 100 times they will not cause any problem during the rest of the fight. Ofcourse there are always hard headed persons, then you always have the kick button and mostly the rest of the pug party will agree w
Vashj
Mazrigos
Nordrassil
Skullcrusher
Azjol-Nerub
The Venture Co
As Blood tank ive seen lots of other blood tanks with about the same stats (also in Hit/Exp) have no agro at all. This tells me that it isnt all about the class and stats. Why the hell would you make it easy to play for peeps who cant keep agro? If they cant do that, then how do you think they will perform on other tactics.
Now, when a tank takes over on a boss, Yes i will overagro when i keep my normal rotation up. So i dont.
This should be about playstyle, never having threat issues only makes it really really boring. For a fight like Baleroc its important to have 2 tanks that do have a decent amount of agro since you want to be sure that in the start everybody can nuke while no shards are up yet so you can get the most out of the fight. But with the other tank taking over you still want the first tank to continue dpsing for the same reason. < This is what makes it interesting (together with knowing when to pop CD's), not the whole tank swapping, the moving (like on Shannox for example), or getting your gear right (this you should do at all times).
Actually, I would say make it more important to have threat, keep paladins away from stacking mastery fully and having no threat at all if taunting of an other tank.
If you want to make it easier with classes around like Warriors and Frost DK's with high threat, loose a bit of theirs in their Tallent Tree, something they have to choose do i want less threat or do i want free interrupts (for instance). Dont take the fun out of tanking by makeing it something you dont have to pay attention to.
Genjuros
Darkspear
Magtheridon
1- why don't you taunt ?
2- both tanks will have threat boosted ,not only one of them :)
The Sha'tar
Actually, Bubblecrush had a slight point there, when taunts happen everyone but warrior tanks will strugle to keep up with the vengance the previous tank was rocking with. (but vigilance, oh vigilance... such and awsome tool on the warrior toolbox).
The basic implication is, especially if the tanks have even slightest difference in gear level that the tank who is being taunted from will need to resort to white attacking alone untill vengance equalizes.
Magtheridon
Magtheridon
Terokkar
Agamaggan
While I love the complex, difficult encounters of Cataclysm, I feel these subtle, tactical mechanics contribute significantly to the fun of the game, for me anyway.