Coffee With The Devs – Threat Level Midnight

Coffee With The Devs – Threat Level Midnight

Threat revisited

One of the fun things about working on an MMO is that the game design will evolve over time, and you have the opportunity to make changes to reflect those design shifts. (And yes, we know that it can sometimes evolve too quickly).

Back in December, I wrote a blog about our vision for how threat should work. Since then, the game and the community have continued to progress and the designers have found ourselves changing our minds about the role of threat. Enough that we’re planning to apply a hotfix this week to change how threat works.

Why have threat?

Threat’s role, just so we’re all on the same page, is to make fights more interesting. Tanks spend a lot of effort staying alive, but they aren’t under immediate threat of death one-hundred percent of the time. Plus, their staying alive is also dependent on their healers and other external cooldowns. We have always been concerned that if threat was not a big part of tanking gameplay that tanks might get bored just waiting around until it was time to use a cooldown. Likewise, if DPS and healers had no risk of being attacked themselves then the sense of danger facing a powerful creature could erode. Furthermore, every character’s toolbox includes some cool survival and utility abilities and the game feels more shallow if those are exclusively used for PvP. It’s fun for a mage to Frost Nova an attacker and Blink away. It’s fun for a hunter to Feign Death. Yes your life would be a lot easier without threat mechanics, but our goal isn’t to make fights as easy as possible. Our job is to make fights fun. Having too much to manage might not be fun, but it’s also not fun to be bored.

That’s been our traditional argument for threat needing to matter. Here is the case against it:

Why not have threat?

Throttling

    As I said in the previous blog, it’s not fun to feel throttled. It’s not fun for the Feral druid to stop using special attacks in order to avoid pulling aggro. It’s fun to use Feint at the right time to avoid dying, but it’s not fun for Feint to be part of your rotational cooldown. We want you to spend most of your effort trying to overcome the dragon or elemental, not struggling against your own tank.

Tanks are busy

    I’d also argue that our encounters aren’t really boring these days. We ask tanks to do a lot – everything from picking up adds, to moving bosses around, to staying out of fires, to providing interrupts, in addition to the classic tank roles of staying alive and generating threat.

Threat stats aren’t fun

We put threat stats (hit and expertise for the most part) on tanking gear, because without those, tanks would be limited to choosing from among mastery, dodge, and parry. (In the current state of itemization, you are rarely choosing more Strength, Agility, Stamina, or armor.) Druids can’t parry, and even for the plate users, there is a tight relationship between dodge and parry, and even mastery for the warrior and paladin. That gets us dangerously close to the old model of stacking a single uber stat (like Stamina or defense), which makes gearing choices too simplistic for tanks. Did something drop? Okay, put it on. (Contrast this to a DPS caster who might want more or less hit or might favor haste over crit, etc.)

We want threat stats to be interesting, but the reality is that they aren’t. Any decent tank will usually choose survivability stats over threat stats. Back in the day when taunts and interrupts could miss, you could argue hit was marginally useful. But in a world where hit is really just for generating threat, it isn’t very exciting and tanks get understandably emo when we put too much on their gear. (DKs are somewhat of an exception in a good way – more on that in a sec.) We do see some players try and get excited about threat stats or even proud of their ability to generate threat, but overall we feel like threat stats are a trap, and it’s usually the case that improving your survivability will have a better net impact on your group’s progression.

We don’t need a more complex UI

We have threatened for years (see what I did there?) to build in some kind of threat tracking tool into WoW. But is that really good for the game? Do we really need yet another UI element for players to look at instead of looking at the actual game world? We know many raiders in particular use third-party threat mods today, but that has really been borne out of necessity rather than a sense that watching threat is super compelling gameplay. (When we say “super compelling gameplay” you can mentally replace that with “fun.”)

Dungeon Finder

I know this bullet will be a point made by players critical of this change, but I would feel remiss in not bringing it up. We want it to be a positive experience when Dungeon Finder matches experienced players with newer players. The skill and gear of the former can help make up for that of the latter. Who better to teach you boss mechanics than players who have done the fights before? Even better, the gear of a veteran tank can make up for the less powerful gear of a beginning healer (which doesn’t necessarily mean a noob – it could be the alt of a very experienced raider).

However, this system fails and often spectacularly so when it’s the tank who is the undergeared player. Even if a competent healer can keep the undergeared tank alive, the fully raid-geared DPS spec is going to constantly be on the verge of pulling threat. That’s not an issue of skill. It’s just numbers. It’s also not a problem that is easy to overcome for either the overgeared DPS or the undergeared tank – it’s just not a lot of fun for anyone.

So now what?

Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we’ve gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in a hotfix this week to where it’s generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don’t need them.

It’s an important distinction that the concept of “aggro” will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature’s attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we’ll have to make further adjustments.)

We like abilities like Misdirect. It’s fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don’t like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank’s threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.

Upcoming changes

Here are the specific changes you’re likely to see:

  • Hotfix: The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.
  • In an upcoming patch: Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.

Long-term changes

You could argue that once threat is very easy to manage that a warrior tank could just go AFK. In reality, given today’s boss encounters, an AFK warrior would end up standing in the wrong place, missing a tank transition, or otherwise do something or fail to do something that wipes the party or raid.

That said, we ultimately don’t want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We’ll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn’t mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.

Death Strike consumes resources to help the tank survive. We toyed at one point with the paladin Holy Shield being a Holy Power consumer and we think we could do so again. Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you’re supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn’t feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic. We could make Shield Block cost rage, and change Protection warrior rage income such that they had to manage rage, the way Fury and Arms warriors now must do. If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons. This is a bigger change than it seems though. We don’t want a model where the Prot warrior ignores Shield Slam, Devastate and Revenge (since threat isn’t a big deal) in order to bank all rage for Shield Block (because survival is). Imagine a rage model where you always had enough rage for your core rotational abilities (they could be cheap or even generate rage), so that you could funnel most of your rage into Shield Block when survival mattered and Heroic Strike when it did not. Redesigning Savage Defense to make it a rage sink is an even bigger change, but we think there is an opportunity there to make the rotation more interesting for druids (and all tanks really). Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living.

This is the kind of design for which we’re really going to need a lot of feedback once it hits. We can implement and verify empirically how much threat a tank generates, but it’s hard for us to replicate the experience of all of the various raiding groups and dungeon parties out there. We invite you to try out the immediate and eventually the long-term changes when they are available and let us know how they feel. Do you miss the threat game? Are you bored when tanking now? Conversely, with the changes, is tanking more fun for you? Does this new implementation of Vengeance feel better? Some systems design calls we can make just by processing numbers, and some are more squishy and involve a lot of gut checks and wishy-washy “but how does it FEEL?” language. Messing with this kind of thing is definitely somewhere in the middle.

Greg “Ghostcrawler” Street is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft, and lead eater at the dinner table.

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Comments (165)

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Nicholashsas
Darkmoon Faire
Nicholashsas
11/05/2012
threat...great way to handle deepth of danger..only shame it becoms a boring annoying detail whenever evade activates
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Atiea
Lightbringer
Atiea
15/09/2011
500% is great. I like not tabing like an idiot too see what mob the moron dps are hitting on. This just makes pugs more fun. And for everyone. Altough, paladins feels alot weaker when it coles to AoE threat since we need to get 3 HP for Inquisition. Not that its a big issue, just noticed im miles behind warrs atleast. (Did a trash run in FL with a warr tank and most mobs stuck on him in AoE situations.)
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Worthington
Ravencrest
Worthington
10/09/2011
Please for the love of the light, stop pandering to the community. People NEVER know what’s best for them, never, never ever, ever. NEVER, and its destroying your game.

Yes and just sticking an extra 200% on threat on ALL classes seems really bloody methodical, I LIKE it when the occasional mob runs away from me, it’s FUN to have to do something about it not just stand there.

People don't want to be tank because they don't hit as hard, which is just the way of the world (of Warcraft), people like big numbers that’s it, that’s all it is.
Stop try to woo people into tanking, with magical bags of BS, and broken IWIN button mechanics because frankly it’s umm making not want to tank anymore.

I could list off 101 more things I’m not happy about but I would risk becoming what I hate.
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Rhalok
Burning Blade
Rhalok
02/09/2011
"We put threat stats (hit and expertise for the most part) on tanking gear, because without those, tanks would be limited to choosing from among mastery, dodge, and parry. (In the current state of itemization, you are rarely choosing more Strength, Agility, Stamina, or armor.) Druids can’t parry, and even for the plate users, there is a tight relationship between dodge and parry, and even mastery for the warrior and paladin. That gets us dangerously close to the old model of stacking a single uber stat (like Stamina or defense), which makes gearing choices too simplistic for tanks. Did something drop? Okay, put it on. (Contrast this to a DPS caster who might want more or less hit or might favor haste over crit, etc.)"

This is funny. How many tanking gear has expertise or hit rating ? You can't list more than 5 for pre-raiding. You need to modify reforging so it doesn't lower a stat and put another. It should completely switch stats. This is a game, not a math problem. I shouldn't sit and calculate/plan gear not to get flamed because someone attacks the wrong mob which I have the least aggro and complain "WORSE TANK EVER!". You must get gearing for tanks not challenging as much as DPS, in fact, DPS should be bloody tough to gear. Because sorry, even you can get bad dps, it's still easier to play than tanking or healing. You can even dps in tank gear when you have reforging.

Simply, tanks need expertise and hit rating on a talent. Keep in mind, we are not tanking for fancy gear or stats. We are playing a game with others and we assuma a role. And most of us are happy protecting a group so it's not about gear or stats. It's the role.

Seeing Threat Level is most useful for dpsers, because they bloody need to stop dpsing if they are about to overaggro.
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Oh come on. One of the most memorable fights for me was Vael in BWL, where the game was all around doing as much dps as you can while still not pulling aggro. I had a lot of fun tanking that boss, cramming out as much threat as possible so the dps could go all out. Or Princess in AQ40, which required great coordination between 3 tanks, or Broodlord, with his aggro whipes, or... Come to think of it there were plenty of fun and challenging fights for the entire raid based around threat mechanics in the early days. I encourage you to bring this back, or at least leave these old fights just as much fun and challenging as they used to be, and not destroy these with "boss is now glued to tank, dps go nuts!"

As for what the role of a tank is, it's not sitting there taking hits from the boss trying to survive. It's about making sure that the boss is hitting you, and not the rest of the group. Making sure the tank survives is the job of the healer.

A good tank used to be able to stack complete avoidance (none of that stamina crap, all you need is a health pool to survive the boss's biggest hit, the healer should top you off before the next one comes) and still maintain aggro, especially if the dps knew how to manage their threat. A poor tank had to trade avoidance for threat generation stats like strength or hit, incidentally making these tanks harder to keep alive (see the trade-off between avoidance and hit there, it has always been there)
What this change does is simply giving the tanks even more reason to stack avoidance over threat generation. And perhaps even more alarmingly, makes the tanking game more accessible to those who have no clue about it (and yes this is a bad thing, we've all been there when the tank has no idea about the tactics or tanking in general, other then "spam devestate". this will multiply these occurences)
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Slashsmash
Mazrigos
Slashsmash
30/08/2011
Druids are getting pretty annoying by default they think nobody can hold aggro and immediatelly change to bear form and swipe everything. OK who is the hero class here? I have to push at least 4 buttons to tank they just swipe and look on the other tanks like: Hey man! what you doing?
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Brund
The Sha'tar
Brund
25/08/2011
It is nice that you can see a problem and I think the diagnosis is sound.
however take druids frenzied regeneration. this doesnt work while levelling atm, there isnt enough rage. This is a mechanic of rage dump as a survival tactic... not a problem in raid, but shifting a problem elsewhere.
Threat doesnt work badly atm.just in certain situations.. is vengance the problem then ?
and back to bears, savage defence [SD] (and DK 'shield' aparently) are both suffering from an interaction with vengeance And the fact that they rely on a fixed value rather than % like the blocks do. This block change to % was to avoid problems like we will have (as ilvl rises) with SD.
Nice idea with the active defence, but please consider that the big changes make new problems as every expansion has shown. perhaps just stick to minor tuning and keep big development invested in new ideas for gameplay rather than fundamental player mechanics.
good luck anyway
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Azzsh
Silvermoon
Azzsh
25/08/2011
or maybe create some low lvl quests that show new tanks and dps how they should behave in a group... ie. dps don't pull before the tank or while the healer is drinking...
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@Azzsh: Yeah, the dungeon-toturial for healing, DPS'ing and especially tanking, that so many people have been asking for for a long time, would really help a lot on this issue I think :)
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Kátherine
Argent Dawn
Kátherine
27/08/2011
@Bielda: Would be interesting if they did that. Perhaps they could do this system that joins you up with NPC's and you can practise on them.
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Azzsh
Silvermoon
Azzsh
25/08/2011
So basically you're fixing the game for people who suck at it or just plain don't want to take the time to learn...

I've been lvling a Duid tank (broken as it is) and the only time I have any issues is on large pulls where DPS is going all out spamming AOE. on a single target boss it is virtually impossible for anyone to steal aggro

Now I am seriously not one of the better tanks out there, but this change seriously isn't necesary... if there is a problem with tanking in the random dungeon finder then add a tank buff just like there is a dps buff in all the different zones already. Or maybe give tanks better gear in their random bags so they can stay geared easier. This "fix" you are talking about is too drastic IMO
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Youfeedme
Outland
Youfeedme
25/08/2011
Debus, are you retarded? They are increasing the amount of threat YOU do from 3 times to 5 times. "The threat generated by classes in their TANKING MODE has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done."
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Debus
Ahn'Qiraj
Debus
25/08/2011
you BETTHER not !@#$ the Treath lvl for %^-*s sakes i got full raid gear and i still struggle my !@#$ to hold aggro and now that for %^-*s sakes blizzard wake up the game is falling
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As a bear, i don't have much to worry about threatwise before or after the fix. Some high performing DKs and warriors have strained tanking the first 10 secs prefix, but don't anymore.

I do like the idea of the tank also performing good dps rather than half of 1/3 of the damage dealers. Currently i can do 10-11k dps and that makes me push for a more equal stance with the dps'ers and i wouldn't want to afk if it made a difference to an encounter how much damage i could dish out.

Maybe thats somewhere you can make tanking more engaging?
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Stael
Wildhammer
Stael
24/08/2011
Why would you even consider to make it so easy, I never have any threat issue's even when i was low geared. And I realy think this would make tanking too boring and easy. In my opinion it should be challenging to maintain aggro, if you can not maintain aggro then youre not good enough to tank. I realy just love it to take aggro back from dps/healers. But after this patch its like giving everyone a drivers license just to experience driving. For example, some tanks are tending to take a break after every pull in lets say za/zg, maybe because they wait for their cd to be ready again. But its just annoying to take a break every fight so when i am playing on my other chars i just start the fight with an attack and then the tank is forced to take over. After the patch we all should wait and wait and wait because we have a slow tank :S. I say make tanking hard so only the experienced players can use for example warrior to tank (many think this is the hardest class for tanking) and not everyone that can bash some buttons. I like a challenge so please dont take that away, why do you think i use a fire mage and not an arcane mage, or an affliction warlock, prot war, etc etc. Its just fun if you have to do alot and not only bashing my buttons. If tanking will be a button smash class then i am considering changing the game because all the fun will be out the game then.
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The way to solve the problem is to give every DPS a way to put threat on the tank. That would make groups far more dynamic, the uber dps grouped with the so-so tank could spend some of their GCDs on helping the tank hold agro. Then you could reduce the threat generated by the tank and instead let them trade dps / threat for damage avoidance so the so-so healer can keep up but at the cost of threat, which means a cost of dps - gear would become a very minor issue, if everyone plays well then at worst the fights will take 50% longer, so maybe the run takes 45 mins instead of 35.

In vanilla this was the hunter/warlock problem, these two classes could solo to max level and enterd end game group content with no clue about agro management. Now everyone levels up in groups but the old school runs are so trivial that still people expect to just run in and pew pew like the hunters and 'locks did. Hunters were particularly bad because feign death let them avoid consequences of their poor play, we'd wipe because the hutner pulled agro but he didn't see how it could be a problem because he survived. This is a bad (and I hope temporary) solution, it reduces the need for player interaction, removes a balance tool and removes an encounter design tool.
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Brund
The Sha'tar
Brund
25/08/2011
@Aachoo: Excellent idea, gives dps something to do and they cant just blame the tank
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Voleseo
Scarshield Legion
Voleseo
23/08/2011
So what will be the difference between the four tanking classes, then? Only appearance and spell visual/sound effects?
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Líobhan
The Sha'tar
Líobhan
23/08/2011
I really believe that the idea isn't to make a game where lack of skill is compensated by game mechanics. Anyone seeking to raid would need to learn to. The changes are meant to ease up the learning process. It is really hard to raid with a low geared tank even if her/his gear is up to the raid, but not up to the group. But I really dont trust that blizzard will do what they never did: Make the tank a TANK, not a "slightly enhanced threat generating" DPS.
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Dreadkiller
Genjuros
Dreadkiller
22/08/2011
lol if vengeance stacks more at the start of the encounter wtf are we gonna do with the stupid ninja puller/idiot who throws everything hes got before i have dnd on?????or the mage who sees me pull 2 ppl and goes blizzard/flamesrike b4 i even use HS once??
oh and bliz one mech u shud use is a rated dung/raid or tanks worldwide will have to give possible party/raid members iq tests before the instance...
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Dekker
Anachronos
Dekker
22/08/2011
Great,

Dide not have huge problems before the increase but it's good to see this is buffed a little. There's to many people out there that do not understand the upll agro mechanic of the game
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Voleseo
Scarshield Legion
Voleseo
23/08/2011
@Dekker: Instead of making the game easier for these "to many people", it would be better if they were stimulated to learn.
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Arakesh
Scarshield Legion
Arakesh
21/08/2011
I welcome anything that will help hold threat at the start of a fight with pre-potting frost DKs, arcane mages and other classes that produce a lot of threat early on. Last raggy kill, which is a more static fight as far as tanking goes, the only person even noteworthy on Omen was the other tank.
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Dreadkiller
Genjuros
Dreadkiller
22/08/2011
@Arakesh: lol a frost dk arcane mage can easily destroy the dps meter without coming close to full aggro what u (and many others with u) experience is only the best of noob dps
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Palletje
Shadowsong
Palletje
21/08/2011
Ok i might not be right about exact numbers and spells and stuff, but i wrote it at work, i think sacred duty has a 50% chance of having shield of reighteoud crit and spellpower is not define d by attack power but by strength etc.. But i guess you guys get the idea
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Palletje
Shadowsong
Palletje
21/08/2011
I know there has already been said a lot about this. In my opinion raising threat from 3x to 5x damage done is not the way to fix it.

Personally i think that the problem was the burst threat of some classes where you do not have a rogue or a hunter in the party or where they refuse to help out the tank.
Raising threat makes those spells kinda useless, which in my opinion would be ashame.
Problems i encountered were mostly with arcane mages and dps warrirors.
I also know that hit an expertise are not as important as with dps, but having just 3% hit does make you miss a few hits and i noticed that for me an ideal hit was about 6%. nothing is more annoying than missing your first hammer of the righteous on a pack. and expertise i noticed that 18% is pretty ideal, hardly seen any dodge now.
For me as a paladin:
Now when i got to the point where i got an average ilevel of 350 and up i noticed i hardly had those problems with threat anymore towards any class. And getting a good weapon was the most important part of it, because damage and thus threat is based on the output damage of a weapon it is then altered by the amount of attackpower you have(if I am correct). therefore i think the Vengeance change to not build up but isntantly be maxed sounds like a good idea to me.
Much of it is common sense if you ask me. If you know that threat is based on damage and you know that the abilities you use is based on the output damage of your weapon and altered by the amount of attack power (paladins use spellpower which is based on attack power other classes might work different) than you also know how to increase your threat. In my honest opinion if you are not doing threat enough, three things can go wrong. Either your gear is not good enough, there is something wrong with your rotation(including not pressing enough buttons constantly) or you just haven't read up on how to tank.
I haven't tanked since before the hotpatch, but i was already on 30k or more threat per second, only problem was that i just got there after about 10 seconds, when i had 3x holy power and a proc called Sacred Duty i believe. After that there was no way any dps could gain threat on me anymore. Now I know there are a lot of paladin tanks that don't even know about the sacred duty proc. well it is a proc that you can get from either a judgement or avenger's shield. What it does is make your shield of Righteoud a 100% guaranteed crit. and again you also need enough hit, because missing that 100% guaranteed crit on your shield of righteous with 3 holy power up is no fun for your threat. Because for me my theat goes up for about 10k if that one works. Getting 3 holy power, a sacred duty proc and a full vengeance aligned together takes about 10 seconds.

So all in all i think it is a matter of people not knowing how tanking works for their class.
Maybe it is Blizzard to blame for the lack of information given about how it works in a whole picture. It is also the player to blame that if he or she wants to play tank they should read up on how it works for that class.

Ohh and i saw someone mention that waiting for a proc on avengers shield is annoying, however the only thing it does is makes it cost no mana, if you have enough mana there is no reason you should not use it without a proc, it is also an extra interrupt and it does a fair amount of threat. only if you encounter mana issues after a while you might only want to use it when it procs.
Also to prevent mana issues, make sure you have a lot of mastery and use judgement everytime it gets out of cooldown.
Jdgement will give you a certain amount of mana per (attempt to) use.
If you block, parry or dodge you get mana. so with enough block (parry and dodge are not worthwile to stack to solve mana issues) you get plenty of mana and healer is happy aswell, mastery gives you a lot of block, so you do not get much damage and you get more mana.

Again if you lack mana, your gear is either too low for the type of dungeon or your stats are not good on it.
Again reading up solves a lot.

I also heard complains about AOE threat for paladins. well there is a talent that makes your concecration cost a lot less mana, use it and with hammer of the righteous which hits all targets nowadays and holy wrath which stuns them aswell (so use it at the moment all mobs are in range to avoid them from running and slam them all with a hammer afterwards and i guarantee you that if you have enough damage output they will not run to other dps and if a full raidgeared person is attacking the wrong one, then you should lose only one target to that char, let that char die and taunt it back, ress him when you are done with the pack and nicely say that he had better take your target as main target. 99 out of 100 times they will not cause any problem during the rest of the fight. Ofcourse there are always hard headed persons, then you always have the kick button and mostly the rest of the pug party will agree w
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Patronia
Vashj
Patronia
20/08/2011
why this happened? I hardly had problems never with tanking (mostly only in start of combat which happens with dps who just doesnt like to attack same target,or they just have burst dmg in start) , even im kind of newbie with that.. Its hard to believe that some people are struggling that much with their aggro. Its more fun anyway when we have harder to keep aggro. Not getting too bored to tanking and having some challenge. I dont think kind of fix is necessary. Atleast not for the people who know how to taunt etc.. ofc there is some differences between dps and tanks now and then, i personally havent met so many cases like that (when dps got much better gear than tank that he overaggroes).. people who dont need anymore ZA or ZG, doesnt seem to hang around there anyways that much.. I dont see the problem here with the tanking :/ , just let it be like this as not that much people have problems with tanking.
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Slashsmash
Mazrigos
Slashsmash
20/08/2011
You see before this threat patch i was doing Zulaman with very good geared DK and mage (almost full 391 ilvl). And ive asked them whether i have to even try to hold aggro. If you are undergeared tank - this means you are not raiding and you never ever gonna see a god damn gear from raid and you are not even dreaming about firelands raid. As simple as it looks this was inevitable as you wont be able to hold aggro against mage doing 40K DPS on primary target while he living bomb others. This patch is more like for Dungeon Finder tool because its expected from you to progress with your guild and thus you should be equally good geared against those nasty 40K DPS pulling mages.
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Ookamikun
Nordrassil
Ookamikun
20/08/2011
is this hotfix out yet in EU?
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Steadyshot
Skullcrusher
Steadyshot
20/08/2011
Hot Coffee GTA style! lmao
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Bloodravenx
Azjol-Nerub
Bloodravenx
19/08/2011
A nice feature to help keep people such as myself from dieing in pugs and therefore avoiding them. However in raids I'm not so sure it needs to happen, where every player has within 10% the same gear level.
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Korsiolsa
The Venture Co
Korsiolsa
19/08/2011
So,
As Blood tank ive seen lots of other blood tanks with about the same stats (also in Hit/Exp) have no agro at all. This tells me that it isnt all about the class and stats. Why the hell would you make it easy to play for peeps who cant keep agro? If they cant do that, then how do you think they will perform on other tactics.
Now, when a tank takes over on a boss, Yes i will overagro when i keep my normal rotation up. So i dont.
This should be about playstyle, never having threat issues only makes it really really boring. For a fight like Baleroc its important to have 2 tanks that do have a decent amount of agro since you want to be sure that in the start everybody can nuke while no shards are up yet so you can get the most out of the fight. But with the other tank taking over you still want the first tank to continue dpsing for the same reason. < This is what makes it interesting (together with knowing when to pop CD's), not the whole tank swapping, the moving (like on Shannox for example), or getting your gear right (this you should do at all times).
Actually, I would say make it more important to have threat, keep paladins away from stacking mastery fully and having no threat at all if taunting of an other tank.
If you want to make it easier with classes around like Warriors and Frost DK's with high threat, loose a bit of theirs in their Tallent Tree, something they have to choose do i want less threat or do i want free interrupts (for instance). Dont take the fun out of tanking by makeing it something you dont have to pay attention to.
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Dreadkiller
Genjuros
Dreadkiller
22/08/2011
@Korsiolsa: completely agree but as a frost dk i never had aggro problems cuz i have atleast half a brain and dont pop HB before tank pulls just take it slow hit a PS and icy touch and after 10 sec hit pestillence and spam HB OB FS (is that so hard now?) but what most peeps try to do is be on top of recount all the time even if the group/raid wipes cuz of them what do u tell a frost dk that starts off with 4 obliterates straight and then spams froststrike????or outbursts and pestillences on a 20man pull before i(as tank)have dropped dnd???and the most annoying are the ppl that blame u for it and go /recount report main party and the worst thing is U end up kicked cuz u start swearing the hell at them...and thats my truth rage
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Bubblecrush
Darkspear
Bubblecrush
18/08/2011
this is a great implementation to wow, but it has also triggered a new problem, since threat still exists, the new issue is holding aggro over the other tank, on ragnaros my druid being just as well geared as the other tank struggled to hold onto the boss at the beginning of the encounter since paladin tank easily over aggrod when it was my turn to take the boss.
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Sonson
Magtheridon
Sonson
18/08/2011
@Bubblecrush:
1- why don't you taunt ?
2- both tanks will have threat boosted ,not only one of them :)
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Frego
The Sha'tar
Frego
19/08/2011
@Sonson:
Actually, Bubblecrush had a slight point there, when taunts happen everyone but warrior tanks will strugle to keep up with the vengance the previous tank was rocking with. (but vigilance, oh vigilance... such and awsome tool on the warrior toolbox).
The basic implication is, especially if the tanks have even slightest difference in gear level that the tank who is being taunted from will need to resort to white attacking alone untill vengance equalizes.
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Sonson
Magtheridon
Sonson
18/08/2011
thank you blizzard ,really this is the best thing happened to WOW for long time.i can't stress this enough.
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Gorkzillah
Magtheridon
Gorkzillah
18/08/2011
Fianlly someone in blizzard realised that.
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Megapaly
Terokkar
Megapaly
18/08/2011
I think that the dungeon and possibly raid finder should have an additional side-window to see which available achievements can be achieved for each dungeon/raid, so you don't have to spend 5 mins finding the achievements. Like in WotLK Heroics and possibly other raids which have a lot of achievements. This should grant a little overview of what you can do in the selected dungeon/raid.
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Ursa
Agamaggan
Ursa
18/08/2011
While this change will, I'm sure largely be praised I feel that this is another unnecessary simplification of the game. The ability for good tanks to generate fast threat meant for more DPS and abilities like Tricks and Misdirect made this easier. This meant that a skilled tank and clever use of threat cooldowns could slightly increase you % chance to get the boss down.
While I love the complex, difficult encounters of Cataclysm, I feel these subtle, tactical mechanics contribute significantly to the fun of the game, for me anyway.