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Edit/Update Post-Patch 4.1 : The thread has become outdated due to the remarkable nerfs that were given to SP in the 4.1 patch. However, you will all understand that I can't be asked to keep this updated or invest any energy into it. I wrote one of the most respected constructive posts ever created on this forum, with many many vital issues listed (with none of them adressed !), and as a result we lost our most vital spell in arena: Dispel Magic. Which was the exact opposit action of what this thread was intended for.
Conclussion: I wasted my time, but atleast, I tried. Many thanks to the hundreds of people who supported this thread.
Here's the original thread:
Hi there everybody,
I'll be making a list today of problems that I have come acros while PvP'ing as a Shadowpriest. I'll be as objective as possible. Do not expect positive things being mentioned here, i'll be focussing on everything that's not working as intended or should change from my point of vieuw. If you do not know how to fix our class or whats wrong. I'll do it for you Blizzard.
Mecanics and Spells
- Sin & Punishment:
-The horror effect isnt actually one horror effect, its being considered a fear and has DRs with other things
-The horror effect DRs itself, so the target is immune after 3 dispels.
-The horror effect DRs our Fear, despite supposedly being a different DR category.
You can see this intire talent is wrong, it's not even worth taking. It's in direct conflict with it's main goal: to function as a dispel protection. Dispelling VT is basically a protection for the dispeller. He protects himself from AOE fears, doesn't risk a thing, and counters the damage and actually destroys the priests preshure.
-Paralysis often does not proc when the Mind Blast critted.
-Paralysis is subject to dodge and parry. That's right, you can compare this to a ranged Improved Hamstring. It can be dodged by Players and Mobs. Can I have expertise on my Satin set now ?
-Paralysis debuff is applied to slow after the MB crit in my opinion. It has happened so many times that I land my MB crit and the warrior still charges me 0.5 seconds after. Making my Paralysis worthless.
Masochism often does not return mana when the priest casts SW:D without killing his target. Shields/absorbtion effects are not interfering with this mecanic, it's just a matter of sometimes not proccing even if we do take the reflected damage.
- Vampiric Embrace
The nerf to our self-healing ability is unjustified for the following reasons.
- We have no mobility
- We have barely survivability, dispersion usually only slows down our death because the extra time we gain is not nearly enought for our DoTs to inflict a decent amount of damage like they used too. PW:S seems to not stop our enemies for even a second and our AOE fear breaks to often and there are to many spells that counter fear effects. Undead / Warriors / Fear Ward / Feral druids / Tremors / Death knights (leaving aside dispels and trinkets). All of these things make the fear a lot less powerfull then a sheep for instance where a dispel or a trinket are the only options.
- Death knight's / Warlock / Rogues / Warrior have a much larger arsenal of ability's or mecanics to defend themselves then us. Yet our VE healing pails compared to theirs. So does our survivability. (So, there's a direct conflict in logic)
I'll admit this is a decent talent, however, seeing the fact we go down like arcane mages. We deserve to get an inmuun effect to snairs for atleast 3 seconds. We usually use our Fear and Fade after, trying to get away. It doesn't seem to work more then 5 % of the time for me.
- Inner Will
I see the purpose for adding this to our list of spells. My guess is, that your main intension for this spell was to increase our mobility on the battlefield/arena. But surely you must have noticed the insufficiency of the spell. I should probably remind you 10% movement speed will never get you out of Charge/Intercept/Deathgrip/Chains of Ice range quick enought. And I should also mention Ret paladins, Rogues, Feral druids and un-dotted hunters will still run faster then us. So will the usage of Inner Will ever get you out of harms way? (even taking into account the ranged movementspeed debuffs like Curse of Exhaustion, Frostbolt, etc aswel) I highly doubt it, the only use I see for the spell is when you're not being targetted, to increase your own overall capability's of playing as a "free/uncontrolled" priest. Which first: Is never the case, secondly: Isn't the problem and thirdly: costs us a global on top of all that.
- Leap of Faith
(I know this isn't a Shadowtype spell, but it's still in a SP's arsenal and can be used to safe a partners life. Therefor it affects Shadow too.)
Buggs out in several situations. This too requires fixing.
Edited by Finidela on 15/05/2011 18:17 BST
-Dot damage not increasing properly upon gaining buffs
What the title says; when you gain Hero/BL the already-applied dots will not take notice of the change in Haste, untill reapplied. Same goes for damage increasing buffs; when a rogue puts up his tricks on you, the already-applied and ticking dots will not increase their damage. This can indeed result in a big loss of overall damage when you sum up all the temporary Haste/Damage increase time you miss on dots during an intire encounter. (Might even make the difference between a kill and a 1% wipe in PvE.)
( Posted by Seremoth )
Overall 'bigger' problems
- Dot damage
One of my main concerns here really. I see SW:P and DP ticking for max 1.8 non crit on nearly all my targets. The DoTs of a Shadowpriest are so vital since we do not have the ability to escape or control our enemies in combat. When you were being focussed on, it was possible to VT/SW:P/DP since you did not need to cast much and your enemie doesn't need to be infront of you. The preshure of our dots is worthless now. People have 120+K HP and are going even higher. What are those 1.8K ticks going to do? Spamming Mindspike while pinned to the ground, while surrounded by opponents is just as bad really. So, no option of dealing decent damage when the enemy is on top of you and you're taking heavy damage. Seeing our poor mobility and survivability thats almost always the case. Or am I being the favorite target over and over by coinsidence for 2 years straight now? The strengh of our damage in bad situations is gone. That was one of the few strenghts we had.
Update 19th jan : Now that everybody has good resilience, and I gathered full PvP gear with 3650 resilience myself and a good bunch of Int, I see my SW:P / DP tick for only 1200-1300 damage in RBG's. Where people have equal gear. They might be doing the same damage as in TBC, but certainly less then in WoTLK. 1.2(J)K-1.3(J)K ...
MANA ISSUES (NEW!)
My very biggest concern, this is. The problem basically comes down to the fact that we burn mana 3 times faster then any other DPScaster. I keep getting the remarks of my healers: ' Dude, your mana is already so low'. I always need to tell them the same thing; and this is the main issue: ' Well, you want me to play offensive, you want fast defendsive and offensive dispels, you want dots up all the time, and those keep getting dispelled.' Basically if you do the math a little you'll see that if a priest pushes 10 buttons his mana is about 3 times lower then that of a mage (mayby even more).
*To high mana cost of ALL the spells utilised by Shadow
*Dispersion needs to remain a defendsive cooldown in arena due to points stated lower in the thread
*SW:D being a waste of a global preshure-wise and not disabeling you to have your 'execute' if you can even call it that these days -since targets rare die by spamming it twice- ready
*Shadowfiend: Did the number of mana recieved even change from WOTLK to Cata ? Cause hello, my manacost and mana bar increased by 300%
*DoT's being INSANELY expensive and getting spamdispelled (1 row of dots = 15 % mana, yes these tend to get SPAMdispelled)
I'm sick of having to start worrying about mana within the first 30 seconds of a fight, it's either managing mana at the cost of preshure or taking the risk of going OOM within 35 seconds and playing in fear for the rest of the game cause Dispersion and Shadowfiend are on cooldown. The rate SP burns mana in arena's is simply retarded. It's all I can say. And it could be resolved so easily, but appearany 'balancing the game is hard' and Blizzard refuses to even give a second of thought about SP's. The fact half of our talent tree is bugged is prove of this.
- Mastery rating (NEW!)
It basicaly comes down to the very fact that when you look at the damage we pull out of our Mastery rating overall, it is simply to low and barely worth it. This is a PvP topic however the DPS rotation between PvP and PvE for an SP consists out of doing almost exacly the same. Leaving aside the MS spam of which Mastery gives us 0 in PvP, because while spamming MS on a target you simply cannot gain Shadoworbs (therefor mastery benefit) as there is no SW:P or MF going on, another downside about our Mastery.
Now, in PvE when you're doing your single-target DPS rotation on a boss. Go look at your MB % of overal damage. Please note that during this intire rotation the only spell that benefits from our Mastery is MB. Last time I checked my recount 10% of my overall damage came from MB. From my Mastery rating I get about 5% extra damage from every orb (this might be low since I won't take mastery over anything els), 15% for my 3stacked MB. This means my mastery rating gives me 15% extra damage on an ability that creates 10% of our overall damage done. Equalling 1.5% overall damage gained according to my calculations, from my mastery rating. Enough said ?
Edited by Finidela on 22/02/2011 13:25 GMT
The situation of Spriests compared to other classes
I will not say I find priest unplayable, they're not, you can get decent scores and quite nice damage. However my problems lies with the fact that priests cannot compete with the rest of the casters, they're wors in almost every aspect. I want a competitive priest. I don't pay to be the weak spot of my team, to be the underdog. I want to be equal in strengh and have a fair chance versus the capability's of mages or warlocks.
- We're a cloth that's the easiest to kill.
- We do not have mobility at all (I already have major issues with these 2 things, dying fastest and not having mobility at all? does not make any sense to me). Warlocks are quite bad at this aswel but atleast you can concider them the tanks amoung casters, with a portal, a slow, a spammable Fear and sufficient damage. Once again, we are no match when you line up the strenghts and weaknessess. And this is where another one of my main concerns come in. In my eyes, any setup an SP can play, a warlock would be a better match. Making it easier for the intire team.
- We do not have decent survivability at all.
- We are not capable of inflicting any decent amount of preshure once the opponents get on us. Seeing the facts we have no mobility and the intire community loves to go for SP for the obvious reasons, that is pretty wrong.
- Other casters have superior/spammable CC. Our silence is nearly always used on the healer we can't get to to fear. Our AOE fear often breaks and usually gets dispelled. Psychic horror is always used to safe ourselves from dying to heavy melee damage.
- We have no slow effects, therefor a lot less control over the enemy.
In the case the enemy targets you: You have no escape, take huge amounths of damage, cannot built up preshure, cannot fear the target you want to get feared, are pushed into using Silence/Horror defendsivly. And then there is the fact your healer will be in a very unconfortable position during the intire time, while the rest will try to keep peeling (which doesn't exacly move your team forward in the battle) . I have one word for the following situation: Dispair.
At the bigger aspects of PvP like damage, resilience, mobility, survivability, utility, healingpower, kiting we are at the buttom. While others are equal in strengh, have a weakness here and there and excell at a certain thing like mages excel at Mobility and control, Warriors excel at Tunneling and building preshure, Warlocks excel at tanking while being able to move and deal damage, Paladins excell at healing, etc.
I hope I was able to shed some light on the intire situation for you and I hope you take my word for these problems because I do have a VERY good clue what i'm talking about. If I missed some things which I'm pretty sure I did, i'dd like to ask the community to correct me and add more of the things that need Blizzard's immediate attention.
This was my last contribution to the community, i'll be going on a break now due to exams and the fact I don't find my class satisfying. I hope that when the time comes to go back to active status, our problems will be fixed.
- End of original post / (minor) Updates ( Pre patch 4.1 )
- Shaman Frostband weapon is not being removed by using Fade or Dispersion (thank you Inhert)
- Counterspell : 40yd range // Silence/Horror : 30yd range. Concidering the comparison SP to Mage in all aspects. I believe we're entitled to a 40yd Silence and Horror (thanks Mindcircus)
The cooldown of Silence is also longer compared to those or a Lock or Mage, once again we are entitled to have the same Cooldown as we're weaker compared to them in almost every aspect.
- Shadowfiend: Barely gives mana back, seeing we'll go OOM first, over anybody els. This is wrong. Shadowfiend can also be controlled to easily and at higher ratings often turns out useless.
- Mind Control : When the target is casting any channeled spell, and this at the moment the MC of the priest lands. It interrupts the cast, but breaks the MC instantly. So you can avoid getting MC'd by casting Banadage or anything els.
Edited by Finidela on 30/04/2011 19:27 BST
fantastic thread. I am trying to PvP as shadow, and in BGs it's fantastic, for about 3 seconds till I am at 0% mana. In Arena, I simply cannot do a thing, I get locked down by almost every single class out there. Any melee on me and it's Game over.
I have absolutely no utility for escaping melee, every one of my "escape" abilities has many counters.
If I actually get a chance to cast a thing, I am oom in literally 10 seconds.
85 Undead Priest
Good thread, I do not agree with all of your points because if all of these points would be taken into consideration (which I highly doubt ofc) it would make us OP again. I do agree however with the fact that we seem to lack damage, at least in comparison to other classes. Because that is the main issue here. Are shadowpriests dealing too little dmg, or are other classes dealing to much (which I think is more the case if you look at certain classes).
About people targeting us often and us not being able to get away. This has always been the case, warlocks are caster tanks but I do not think we fall far behind, however us being able to tank was also due to the fact that we had our PW:S and heals which both feel really lacklustre atm.
About Mind spike. I don't really know what to think of this spell, the only situations I use it in is when I need to burst someone down but other than that I don't really see any use for it in pvp (aside for being to use it while being locked out of the shadow school, which isn't the case right now). And casting for ~5 secs just to get a paralysis proc.. nah.
other than those things I don't really see too many problems with shadowpriests. (which is still allot nevertheless) Shadowpriest is sill playable atm but yeah, I do think these things need to be looked at.
Edited by Sorrowfold on 20/12/2010 00:17 GMT
85 Undead Priest
I wholeheartedly agree with this thread. I'm assuming Blizzard knows the problems but can't be bothered right now to change how spriests work because of other stuff.
We're being neglected, it's not new guys. Disc's been broken for years.
Let's hope someone, somewhere cares :(
Edit: Don't forget to 'like' the post. Might be a better way to get blizz to pay attention.
Edited by Crivixx on 20/12/2010 14:26 GMT
60 Undead Death Knight
I agree almost entirely.
Just doing my Tol Barad Dailies and one of those "rogue" type mobs jumps me. I fear him away, VT, SW:P....fear still not broken as no ticks have occured.....DP....oooh thats done it.....he's sprinting back towards me. PW:Shield up.......and......ahhemm
I hear the PW:S noise, PW:S goes on cooldoown.....but I do not see the animation on my charachter as its ALREADY been eaten by ONE melee swing. Nearly 4k mana totally wasted. I then have no option but to stand there and tank the damage. I'm left on 1/3 health and about 20% mana. Another mob spawns on top of me...........
Its the same story in PvP. PW: Shield is currently nothing nore than a waste of mana to cast.
VT and DP. Self healing almost completely useless too. I often when dpsing mobs down keep an eye on my health bar to see if i can notice the hp gains. Nope. I occasionally look at combat text to see that VE just healed me for 150. Hurrah......on a 120k healthpool. Gamebreaking levels of healing there.
Flash heal. Heals for 11k or so and costs huge ammounts of mana. While questing, if for some reason Ive escaped combat on low health, I have to drink to full mana flash heal myself to full then drink again from something like 30% mana left.
Renew. Ticks for less than it did in LK, and by some margin.
The current situation is an absolute joke. VE used to define our class in many ways, it was our nieche along with ability to tank damage and fear kite. As it stands everything is nerfed.......
We cant get distance on targets as fear breaks almost instantly.
We cant tank damage up close as PW:S is worthless.
We cant DO damage as our biggest damage dealers are all cast time spells which we can never get off due to interrupts.
We can't self heal or offheal as VE/DP heal for negligible ammounts and heal spells are exponentially weaker compared to our HP and cost vast ammounts of mana.
We have no DOT protection of any use (check the numbert of PvP SP's who havent even taken the sin and punishment talent).
We have huge numbers of bugs to some of out most vital and supposedly new and exciting abilities.
The list goes on and if Wotlk is anything to go by....we'll be waiting until patch 4.2.0 for any fixes.
80 Human Warlock
OP won't you mention DP and VT not refreshing for haste and dmg buffs? Only SW:P is refreshing and this is due to MF refresh...
Some people may not consider this a problem, and you can take advantage of this in some situations, but it makes our rotation very annoying if we want to achieve our max class dps.
Also if you have noticed the MC nerf please make a note of it too.
Fantastic thread, on the topic of dots and mind spike in pvp..
Because dots do so little damage, and they are dispelled really fast because of how useless they are and how little dispelling them costs you, mind spike is the way to go. Biggest issue with it is how quickly it OOMs us, it can be line of sighted easily as well. Due to our poor maneuverability soon as that happens their free to heal/bandage/mana and it takes us an age to get back into a casting location.
Because are dots suck and mind spike really is our only option to pull of nice damage we stand still alot because our instant casts (dots and swd) either suck or are situational. So MS is even more anoying.
The only reason I've had any real success in 2v2 arena is because my partner is a resto shaman and the moment I catch someone in the open Bloodlust and mind spike mind blast spam can obliterate a targets hp (in a pretty crazy way really) not even healers are ready for it, especially when a hex hits the healer and hes screwed. It is however easy to counter this and it happens alot. Crowd control me during the blood lust and we're probably finished, spell steal it, CC the shaman etc...
A few suggestions for blizzard would be..
1) make Mind Spike and Mind Blast cast without the target facing you. Then we can atleast do damage to melee without them running through us and around us.
2) get rid of the stupid dot removal from mind spike, although this will boost our dps in instances an insane amount.
3) give us more maneuverability to handle melees.. Right now the moment one is on us, surviving him is almost impossible unless hes a super newb.
4) a CC that everyone can't escape. Seriously fear is a complete joke. Not even other shadow priests are bothered with other peoples fears, with fear ward and trinkets.
I suppose you could argue that fade should do the trick to escape melees.. but how many of them have stuns? How many have abilities to close the gap in no time at all?
Added and thanking for compleeting the thread further.
I have also added a new sub-title : Inner Will
Off-Topic : The new Hot fixes
* The range of the heal on Atonement has been increased to 15 yards. It has been verified to be working correctly for the priest and party/raid members.
* Chakra is no longer consumed by a Prayer of Mending bounce.
* Guardian Spirit's capped value did not rise properly from level 80-85. This has been corrected.
Pretty nice to see some hotfixes happening, but I've heart no complaints about this. I for one did not know they excisted. My advice: Fix the ones we complain about : p.
Edited by Finidela on 21/12/2010 11:05 GMT
Hi there everybody,iam so agreed! Best Spriest thread ever! Hope blizzard see this and do something soon, before arena season is halfway!
The thread is well thought out and well written and covers every aspect of what's wrong with SPriest currently, but i doubt this thread will even be looked upon by a blizzard rep, and if blizz don't do something make an annoucement that they have plans to fix the Spriest state, im going to park my priest til they do, if they ever do.
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