World of Warcraft®

29/12/2010 6:08 AMPosted by Raji

Well only a priests have a burst aoe heals... if you look from that point of view, and it shows on world of logs standings. I think they should really look on chain heal and regrowth/wg numbers, move them closer to POH level...

agreed

I was under the impression that regrowth/wg IS near PoH level.. I wil stand corrected if numbers are provided.

Chain heal is near CoH level and needs some love as CoH is just bad (but has a tiny dusty niche)

I did want PoH to be buffed (unlimited by party) but see that because its a good enough spell as it is for heavy aoe damage its nto really needed to cover more than the party and the overheal that is inherent in the spell just has to be taken as part of the effectiveness (ifnot efficiency) of the heal.

Druids and shamans didnt have that to begin with as their mana regen talents overegged the new system and they were more or less wrathing through the early content which with a good group is totally possible.

So what i think is happening is that druids and shamans are not struggling due to any design flaw in their class.

Play a druid and shaman. Afterwards come back here.

they are struggling due to them not actually fully integrating their playstyles with the new mechanics in cataclysm and are too reliant on their mana regen talents rather than stacking some serious regen in their gear. (yes i have sen the druids with over 100k mana.. intel does give regen but spirit is much much better especially with mana tide)

Because gemming for int is the best thing one could do?
Reforging is a different matter, depends on how you feel mana wise (i.e. reforge to spirit), wether you like faster heals (haste) or you want to use the awful mastery.

now i know you will think.. yeah i have stacked spirit.. ths STILL does not give you free reign with your top spells.. I think we will need to see much more heavily statted items before that will happen and the free reign i have seen with rain of heals and druids spamathons sort of confirm it to me..

Those are definetely the worse druids.
I do have mana problems, but that's due to the heavy raid damage going around.
(And that raises the question, why they would want to nerf OoC, as this mostly impacts our single target healing, which is close to paladins, slightly below)

You should not be reliant on your regen cd's as part of your 'rotation'.. as this does not allow for much variation and sustained healing. this is what priests had to learn and now druids and shamans must learn it. Start thinking about longer fights and staying at full mana for as long as possible and finding breaks where you dont need ot heal will be a good start.. find the place for your healing and not put your healing where it deosnt really need to go.

"Only priest know how to play, you still need to learn"
When will you finally stop trolling?

the cd i am talking about is innervate idc what the rest are.. tree of life etc.. I specifically mention regen cd's so... yeah.. it is 5 am and maybe you should read something before flaming it :)

Why shouldn't i use my Innervate on Cooldown? to actually waste the possibility of higher mana regen? Though I can see where this argument comes from in your little world, where only priests are capable of playing their class, and no one else...

Cataclysm requires a different approach to healing, maybe members of the druid class havent quite grasped the best way of them approaching it. This is what i am seeing (read above) and this is maybe a better way of appraoching it (read above).

Once again, most of us have, but for someone unable to understand the difference between numbers and mechanics, this discussion will never lead to a thing.

Now, if priests are able to adapt and druids/shaman aren't, maybe that's a problem in class design, and not that those players are unable to? Or maybe druids/shaman are just far harder to play than priests?

I was under the impression that regrowth/wg IS near PoH level.. I wil stand corrected if numbers are provided.

See above, numbers does not equal mechanics. You should have realized this by now, if not:
Play a druid at 85, or a shaman, to understand what I'm talking about.

Since healers are kinda 'working together' in raids, I find the whole competing for the healing meter kinda stupid, specially with the new healing model.

Anyway, personally I've seen that the only class that needs some love now is resto shamans. The rest seems rather well balanced, in my opinion.. Though I haven't done 25man heroic. Might be different there.

29/12/2010 7:14 AMPosted by Asrial

Since healers are kinda 'working together' in raids, I find the whole competing for the healing meter kinda stupid, specially with the new healing model.

Anyway, personally I've seen that the only class that needs some love now is resto shamans. The rest seems rather well balanced, in my opinion.. Though I haven't done 25man heroic. Might be different there.

I realy do agree with both these points, Healers are meant to work together. We all have abilities to heal either tanks or raid damage, but if all the numbers and spells were the same then we'd all be playing the same class called healer.

There will always be certain classes where there set of spells are slightly better for that niche fight, for example. Shaman mastery is kinda nice for chimareon as everyons kept at ~10k hp.

As for class balance, Priests kinda rely to much on PoH atm to keep up on meters. Would make sense to spread that abit to other spells somewhat (PoM,CoH). I also agree of the 4 healers shammies seem to be lowest, Chain heal would be an ideal place to boost that. They still get a raid spot through tide alone, might be worth slightly nerfing that to accomadate a throughput boost.

Druids seem ok to me and paladins just for some reason top meters. Must have something to do with the skill of the players playing the class naturally :>

jus kidding, but incase someone gets but hurt i WAS JOKING.

Please nerf LoD Beacon transfer pretty pls.

just my 2 pence

Because gemming for int is the best thing one could do?
Reforging is a different matter, depends on how you feel mana wise (i.e. reforge to spirit), wether you like faster heals (haste) or you want to use the awful mastery.

how so? you neglect focussing on regen.. if you oom a bigger pot can help in one way, but have a bigger tap filling your pot may be a better answer. Mayeb concentrating on 1 group usuaing your mastery to its full MAY be better use for a druid.. this just need to be talked about with your team of healers and it can be arranged.. saying intel=win and everything else is stupid. It might be your priority stat but it MUST be balanced with your other stats.. having a big bottles all well and good but its not much use if its empty all the time.

Why shouldn't i use my Innervate on Cooldown? to actually waste the possibility of higher mana regen? Though I can see where this argument comes from in your little world, where only priests are capable of playing their class, and no one else...

AND here we are.. so.. you think that you should have nothing by for emergencies?.. you think that max regen all the time is what is best for your raid? the fact that you might have not long used your innervate when BOOM a healer @*!%s up and goes down adn you have twice the work to do and running out of mana qucikly.. aaah yeah.. no wonder druids are being dropped.. if this is the mentality.. I want MAX throughput ALL THE TIME!!!. meaning that you gem incorrectly, gear incorrectly, and basically play in a way that is not condusive to progression raiding and puts the raid on a thinner edge than it resides.

Its been said to DPS.. dont be afraid to hold some back.. if a phase needs to be pushed or balance between aspects of a boss balanced you need something to play around with. So why isnt it the same with healing.

But yeah.. I think my point was proven by this post. Some druids lack the wherewithall to grasp the necessity of regen cd's as the rest of the healers do as they have become trinkets to them. ( even then most classes use trinkets strategically) to be used on cd rather than as a way to regen mana when they actually need it, its become a pot to take to help them be able to heal less efficiently than they should be doing to be able to keep up with the other classes. And losing that have placed themselves in the position Priests were in before having their mana regen fixed.

Again this is not saying that all druids are like this but a significantly high proportion are..

A word before you say i need to roll the class.. Wake up and smell the coffee.. YES that is the way you get max mana regen but its not all about max mana regen, its not all about max hps/hpm.. its about being able to heal your raid through an encounter and whether this is through efficient healing (BoT) or throughput (BWD) you are working as a team and YOUR performance is secondary to the TEAMS performance.. if you are on omnotron.. why not give your innervate to the priest who is PoH'ing the entrie raid during flame vents.. if he is more efficient than you it makes sense.. on wyrmbreaker why not innervate the tank healers who need to keep the tanks up during the stuns.. no.. just keep it yourself ;) thats all that matters.

but yeah.. I think my point was proven by this post. Some druids lack the wherewithall to grasp the necessity of regen cd's as the rest of the healers do as they have become trinkets to them. ( even then most classes use trinkets strategically) to be used on cd rather than as a way to regen mana when they actually need it, its become a pot to take to help them be able to heal less efficiently than they should be doing to be able to keep up with the other classes. And losing that have placed themselves in the position Priests were in before having their mana regen fixed.

If you think so.

I know fully understand that you are the best player, and priests are among the most skillfull players, who are the only healers, which managed to adapt to the healing changes.

29/12/2010 7:29 AMPosted by Tortillagirl

As for class balance, Priests kinda rely to much on PoH atm to keep up on meters. Would make sense to spread that abit to other spells somewhat (PoM,CoH). I also agree of the 4 healers shammies seem to be lowest, Chain heal would be an ideal place to boost that. They still get a raid spot through tide alone, might be worth slightly nerfing that to accomadate a throughput boost.

Agre wholheartedly with the second aprt and question the first..

You are saying we rely on PoH to top the meters? not that we rely on PoH as it is by far the most efficient and effective AoE heal we have.. instead of spending our mana on luxuries of instant casts PoM (which is extensively used yet uncontrolalbe) and CoH (topping off of very minor damage only during quiet times and fast AoE during hectic aoe heals) is expensive and very weak with a 20sec cd.. its not a spell that is ever going to be heavily used.

You dont seem to notice that the reason PoM and CoH dont appear as a major source of healing is that it ISNT a major source of healing in the first place. they are very weak and go unnoticed in the amount of damage we have to heal with PoH and ofc our echoes and glyph wil outheal them too.

29/12/2010 7:59 AMPosted by Liet

If you think so.

I know fully understand that you are the best player, and priests are among the most skillfull players, who are the only healers, which managed to adapt to the healing changes.

ofc.. and the same reason why you have to post on your L15 warlock so peopl cant see your druid for themsleves.

22/12/2010 3:33 PMPosted by Xaar

The only 'easy' suggestion I can present is to cut Wild Growth cooldown to almost in half and increase the mana cost accordingly. This would enable more bursty healing but discourage spamming the ability.

Agreed, after finally finishing reading the post.. got a bit confused there with all the extra Druids are broken!!11 threads and posts..

This sounds like a good solution and I wouldnt be suprised if it gets slotted in or some mechanic that allows for the greater burst that you have identified as lacking..

you have stated the numbers that I was wondering about and it shows the difference that a lot of druids miss.. hence the "Druids are Broken!!!111" threads and posts..

It is a shame that drudis are being left out your top end raids as there is definately a slot for them to fill.. it wasnt that long ago it was looking like the Priests would be left out though.. so dont be too harsh on us for having issues with people having a go.

29/12/2010 5:45 AMPosted by Dorna

You sorely underestimate the loss of regen that reverting the buff would do.. 3-500 is roughly what you gain gearing from normal to hc.. the true change would be closer to 1.2k

It's 20% of spirit regen, not total regen. Check your tooltips, there's a huge amount of baseline regen that is unaffected by Meditation/Holy Concentration.

Dorna the problem isn't really that druid healing sux bigtime. But the big problem is that holy paladins outperform us on tank healing, and holy priests outperforms us on aoe burst healing.

[quote]Why shouldn't i use my Innervate on Cooldown? to actually waste the possibility of higher mana regen? Though I can see where this argument comes from in your little world, where only priests are capable of playing their class, and no one else...

AND here we are.. so.. you think that you should have nothing by for emergencies?.. you think that max regen all the time is what is best for your raid? the fact that you might have not long used your innervate when BOOM a healer @*!%s up and goes down adn you have twice the work to do and running out of mana qucikly.. aaah yeah.. no wonder druids are being dropped.. if this is the mentality.. I want MAX throughput ALL THE TIME!!!. meaning that you gem incorrectly, gear incorrectly, and basically play in a way that is not condusive to progression raiding and puts the raid on a thinner edge than it resides.

and theres the proof your clueless.

A druid holding back is a druid both under performing and a druid that will need to scrabble to "get back in the game"

As it is druids are based around nourish spam on an hotted target anything else will soon see mr druid go oom.

Now there are some facts in your statement that prove you have no idea what your talking about

1: Without a hot vs other classes efficient heals a druids efficient heal is what 40% or so weaker than any other classes. This means to be "on par" they must use hots to have the efficient heal actually be efficient as without a hot a druids nourish barely outperforms FoL, Flash or surge so a druid spends assuming a NON-TANK raid dmg trget 5k+ 2k mana to get 24ks worth of healing nearly 2k more than the other classes. BUT BUT BUT druids want to be top of there meters at all times ...... well thats spell number 1 that unless they are single target healing the has no hope of keeping up.

2: Regrowth a move as of yet no-ones been able to work out why its half the strength of other fast heals and 2-300 mana cost more worse still people still cant justify other than "pros" like yourself who clearly understand the maths behind a second spell severely weaker than the others

3: Druids mastery is aimed at HoT spam But hots are outpriced , So it gears a druid towards tank healing BUT all theese people in base level logs are showing is druids spamming aoe heals BUT and this is a big but upto around ilvl 346ish yes druids are inline with some out performing others BUT the others scale with gear much better (shammys and disc priests need a bit of work) On the beta in full t11 the druids started falling behind other same geared healers quite badly.

So saying druids have no idea how to adjust while dealing with a weaker toolbox than any but a shammy for aoe (single target a shammy can beat a druid aoe druid beats shammy) and a disc priest(shield = ermmmmmmmmm) shows ignorance on your part. Its not a skill issue that paladins and priests now have faceroll skillsets I hope the re nerf your regen and see how "pro" you are then.

29/12/2010 11:33 AMPosted by Kathari

Dorna the problem isn't really that druid healing sux bigtime. But the big problem is that holy paladins outperform us on tank healing, and holy priests outperforms us on aoe burst healing.

Druids should out perform paladins on a tank because paladins got better raid healing abilities.
Just like holy priest should raid heal more than druids/paladins since they are weaker tank healers and still are not mana efficient.

The only unfair design is that paladins don't pay hybrid tax while druids do considering that paladins have stronger cooldowns than a druid just like druids have stronger cooldowns than a holy priest.
To explain hybrid in this context.

Druid= Tank healer with the ability to raid heal with no real drawback, has a few good cooldowns and brings replenishment (good on 10 man for sure))

Paladin= Pure hyrbrid can do both tank and raid heal and has strong cooldowns

Holy priest= Raid healer can't tank heal for jack sh*t


Druids/paladins/shamans are dynamic healers priests are less in this aspect.

TLDR: Healing needs balancing and druids are not pure raid healers any more, in fact you are less of a raid healer than a pala at this point.

When I was browsing US forum I took notice of INT, SPI and mana regen of 4 random healers of each class.

random druid
INT 3918
SPI 2490
IC 2234 (in combat mana regen)

random paladin
INT 3773
SPI 2116
IC 2256

Notice that even with way higher INT and SPI, IC for both classes is almost the same? And mind you, Paladin still have more of total mana. by 2,5k more.

I know that numbers alone don't tell anything but still druid INT is 145 higher and SPI by 374 yet mana regen of both are almost exactly the same

I do have mana problems, but that's due to the heavy raid damage going around. (And that raises the question, why they would want to nerf OoC, as this mostly impacts our single target healing, which is close to paladins, slightly below)

Why shouldn't i use my Innervate on Cooldown? to actually waste the possibility of higher mana regen? Though I can see where this argument comes from in your little world, where only priests are capable of playing their class, and no one else..

I am playing as a druid and what you are talking about is total nonsense. All you do is troll around saying druid healers need to be buffed and if any druid underachieves then its Blizzard fault and not player's. How come then I see many druids toping healing rankings ? I myself have no problems with mana. Thing is you do not have slightest idea what ToL or Innervate are for. In ToL as it is now you can spam regrowth or healing touch like mad for zero mana cost but you must first read tooltips on your spells. I can understand clearly why Blizzard decided to nerf reso druids. I you don't get it then maybe its time to reroll. I wonder why do you talk so much about druid healing and are at the same time too ashamed to show your char and come as a warlock ?

There is nothing wrong with druid healing in cata - its imba. However, there is something wrong with ppl who got used to tons of overhealing in Wotlk and now troll around healing forums crying for buffs.

29/12/2010 12:37 PMPosted by Oathis

Notice that even with way higher INT and SPI, IC for both classes is almost the same? And mind you, Paladin still have more of total mana. by 2,5k more.

And then you'll understand it's only a part of regen. Druids also have OoC and Revitalize procs and Innervate whereas Paladin have Divine Plea (which is arguably not what it was during LK) and Judgement. There are a lot of players like you that only look at thing through a very, very small glass without seeing the bigger picture. And by the way, I think we paladins are a bit overpowered in the current AoE spamfest that are raids, but if (when) Blizzard nerfed us and priests in this department, they'd have to drastically cut the AoE damage because without paladins and priests, the current content would be impossible.

29/12/2010 6:40 AMPosted by Dorna

I was under the impression that regrowth/wg IS near PoH level.. I wil stand corrected if numbers are provided.

Regrowth is not an AoE heal, perhaps you are confusing it with Swiftmend which requires a HoT to use and can be talented to provide an additional "circular" heal?

Wild Growth will heal for a total of approximately 5000 over 7 seconds on 5 targets. From a brief discussion with a Priest I was informed that for a comparable mana cost Priests can expect approximately 6000 on five people with a 3 second cast time (reduced by haste). It is worth at this point remembering that Wild Growth has a 10 second cooldown and is thus more comparable to Circle of Healing.

A druid may very well be able to couple Wild Growth and Efflorescence in order to try and provide a comparable healing output to a priest but it is worth remembering that in such an instance the druid's heals have a strict positional factor, we lose one of our most potent tank heals (Swiftmend) onto another raid member and the HoTs from both these effects cannot rival PoH for output. Additionally, the requirement for setup (a Rejuvenation or Regrowth HoT on the target to spawn Efflorescence under) is steeper both in time requirements and mana costs. Finally, our heals are not front loaded which only serves to weaken our ability to pull a player away from a danger zone.

29/12/2010 7:14 AMPosted by Asrial

Since healers are kinda 'working together' in raids, I find the whole competing for the healing meter kinda stupid, specially with the new healing model.

It's ironic that you call us stupid when you don't even seem to understand that if one or two healers are superior to the others then most raids - to say nothing of the hardcore min/maxers - will bring less of the weaker healers.

This has been proven to take place consistently every time even minor imbalances (within 5% of each other) takes place.

It's not particularily fun to play a class that will, given equally good players, never be able to compete seriously with the other classes with whom they share a role. I feel like the shadow priest of old now, brought along mainly to be a mana battery. Well, at least they provided more mana the more dps they did, all I have to drop is drop my totem when they ask me to, then every 3 minutes from then on.

So yeah, pretty ironic that you think finding imbalances problematic to be stupid.

29/12/2010 12:39 PMPosted by Zamiatam

I am playing as a druid and what you are talking about is total nonsense. All you do is troll around saying druid healers need to be buffed and if any druid underachieves then its Blizzard fault and not player's. How come then I see many druids toping healing rankings ? I myself have no problems with mana. Thing is you do not have slightest idea what ToL or Innervate are for. In ToL as it is now you can spam regrowth or healing touch like mad for zero mana cost but you must first read tooltips on your spells. I can understand clearly why Blizzard decided to nerf reso druids. I you don't get it then maybe its time to reroll. I wonder why do you talk so much about druid healing and are at the same time too ashamed to show your char and come as a warlock ?

There is nothing wrong with druid healing in cata - its imba. However, there is something wrong with ppl who got used to tons of overhealing in Wotlk and now troll around healing forums crying for buffs.

You will only see druids toping in 10 man raids, our mechanics prohibit us to do so in 25, and it will get worse the better our gear gets.

But maybe you shouldn't just read, but also understand what others are writing.

1. I do not have problems to top the healing in my raid (10 man)
2. I do not ask for number buffs, those are fine (for 10 man)
3. I ask for mechanics fix, the mechanical flaws are already showing in 25, and will show in 10 sooner or later.
4. I'm running ~ 5% OH on e.g. magmaw (healing distribution 27% for both Reju/WG, ~ 20%/20% for LB/HT), and you know, I'd get stomped if the others wouldn't let my hot ticks (they have the mana to do so, and it's less dangerous than my Hots are in general)

edit:

Ah, and before you ask:
I healed Classic, TBC and most of WotLK (though I stopped for Trial of the Crusader, didn't heal that, and never did the mindless reju/wg spam in ICC 25)

29/12/2010 1:42 PMPosted by Liet

Ah, and before you ask:
I healed Classic, TBC and most of WotLK (though I stopped for Trial of the Crusader, didn't heal that, and never did the mindless reju/wg spam in ICC 25)

That lvl15 warlock really has gotten around, eh?