Topic The state of 25-man raid healing: 2+1+1
not only have my points been supported by druids who are confident enough to post under their druids AND the numbers provided by a much more reliable source than yourself Liet..
but if you are struggling then this may point out a few areas to improve
ALL classes are now represented in top ten for both 10 and 25 man healing and so this matter should finally focus on the points brought by the OP that more burst AoE is desired for HEROIC bosses.
not only have my points been supported by druids who are confident enough to post under their druids AND the numbers provided by a much more reliable source than yourself Liet..
Why are the way more paladin/priests than druids/shaman?
Why are there more druids on council than on any other fight?
Why is this only in 10 man council, that you see this? (or Atramedes if we switch over to BWD)
I'm eagerly waiting for an answer to this question, but you'll probably dodge them anyway :>
I'm not struggling to keep up with the other healers, I just want my broken mechanics to get fixed.
Also I wouldn't call world of logs a reliable source.
I was talking about the figures contained in the OP's post. but then i woudl take wikipedia's figures mroe reliably than yours.
So your issue is that your class isnt topping the meters ALL the time then?.. well yeah i think that just put the last scraps of credibility out of all of your posts.
Wyrmbreaker is quite simply a priest fight.. Predicatable raid damage with little movement needed. So yeah priests will generally top for that fight. Council is all about movement.. this thing that druids lack now.. or maybe not.. pally's yeah they will always be there seeing as they are consistently doign 150% more healing that the rest of us per cast :P.
And the more of one class than other is for the reason i keep repeating.. they are fitting into the cata healing scheme better than the otehrs.. and its not priests kow ho wto play and druids dont as druid DO get inthe top ranking why there isnt more druids is possibly cos not ALL druids have adapted and hit the big figures.
I agree world of logs is pretty hit and miss for reliable reports but its the best we can apply to and it is right enough of the time to warrant using in such cases.
Your broken mechanics as you say still allow your class to perform very well.. A slight adjustment that wont buff or nerf your class is asked for and so many ppl start QQing that their class is broken.
I would like to reinforce what happened in the first week of cata..
Priests needed buffing
Shamnas said cata healing wwas easy
Druids said cata healing was easy
Paladins had it easy with limitless mana
Second week of cata
Priests got fixed and started enjoying the game
Shamans remained competitive and got on with it
Druids Started seeing them not hitting the top figures and start QQing
Paladins reciceve nerf QQ a bit and then realise it wasnt so bad after all
Third week of cata
Priests settled into healing start topping meters
Shamans performing competitively keep their heads down asking for nothing more than a little polish topping meters here and there as the fights favour them
Druids split into two groups one group saying yeah a bit more AoE burst would be nice, the other QQing about how their class heals for so much less than the others even though its untrue.
Paladins still top meters
Let me point out that there are still threads about priests being broken which is about as untrue as it gets.. just as there were threads about paladins being broken when they had limitless mana. So i am not suprised you are QQing so much with bull!#!% numbers that show you just arent playing the right way.. I dont know if you noticed.. this isnt bvanilla, this isnt BC, this isnt wrath.. thsi is cata so ALL your experience should teach you to adapt and not say " I healed vanilla so i know how to heal this by default"..
You basically do not even try to understand what I'm talking about.
Maybe you didn't read it at all?
I'm quite confident I pointed out those broken druid mechanics during beta,
I agree that shamans need polishing on their numbers.
You still do not understand the difference between numbers and mechanics.
I am NOT NOT NOT NOT asking for number fixes for druids, but for blizzard to fix our horrible broken mechanics (and talent tree).
Level a druid to 85, start doing heroics and raids, and you should be able to understand it.
What? Priests, shamans and druids were all whining it up constantly, while paladins were going "l2p".
Priests don't really change for the better until they reach high ilvls, which they sure hadn't at that point, and even then they still need a shaman around for keep them going. Unless you're talking 5 man heroics, which are a joke for anyone to heal once they get some gear.
Yeah, priests got competitive with paladins. Shamans are only able to be competitive on AoE healing if the fight allows them to blanket the raid with healing rain, which most fights don't allow, and we're downright weaker than both paladins and druids on tank-healing. I make sure to keep my -10% damage buff on the tanks, and spam my +30%crit healing surge when they get hit with the burst, but other than doing that I don't feel very useful.
The only difference between cata healing and any other expansion is that instead of instantly topping off anyone who takes damage all the time, you slowly heal them up with high HPM spells (when the fight allows it, which isn't all the time). That's the ONLY difference. I find myself constantly spamming healing surge on tanks to barely keep them alive, seeing them go from 100% to dead (while getting heals) in less than 3 seconds, even in 10 man normal modes. On some bosses tanks need to have two healers spam their max HPS spells on them to keep them up against the (far too frequent to use cooldowns on) periodic burst damage.
Reiterating, the ONLY difference is that on SOME fights the raid-wide damage needs to be healed up with high HPM spells to keep the healers from going oom.
Actually its more like as content is being used/experienced more (ie people starting to raid, and the upper end starting to do heroic raids) the flaws and issues from those areas start to come out.
A lot of (normal) raiding is demanding a significant amount of AoE healing fairly quickly and in a world where:
Shamans - Healing Rain and a weak CH
Paladins - Holy Radiance and a mild/essentially cooldown 6 target AoE
Druids - Effloressence and a cooldown 6 target AoE WG
Holy Priests - Sanctuary, CoH and a spammable PoH (which got reduced in cost)
Disc Priests - Spammable PoH with incredible synergy of mastery/glyph
Add in that Disc Priests can compensate with a more spammable shield (DR>healing done outside of numbers), have questionably the strongest cooldown (PW:B). Holy got further regeneration boosts.
Druids Effloressence is pathetic compared to the other ground AoEs and our Rejuvenation (which is key to getting ANY use out of our mastery on non-tanks) is not close to as spammable as PW:S.
Ideally PoH would get a cooldown or a much stiffer mana cost (which wouldn't be great for disc), PW:B would get nerfed. Shamans would get CH buffed and puddle nerfed a tad. Druids would get a new mastery, a cost reduction and/or length increase on Rejuv (even at the cost of weakening it slightly) or a buff on Effloressence.
Raid AoE damage should also be changed to stop the stupidity but that won't happen :)
Edited by Ailawiu on 29/12/10 15:38 (GMT)
Edit: Two posts above now ;)
Wait, what? What kind of bosses are you fighting that bring tank from 100% to 0% in 3 seconds? Sure, there are some periods of huge tank damage, but that's what cooldowns are for, and they're usually pretty short - say, until everything is properly debuffed, positioned and so on. It's kinda like having Soul Reaper in boss fight, except his regular damage doesn't two shot tank anymore.
The amount of AOE damage is high, but if this was WotLK, you'd have 5 seconds to top people before another wave would hit. Here? Sure, Nefarian might bring entire raid to 20%, but there's virtually no other raid damage going on. Cho'gall? Same thing. Panic healing Shadow Orders will kill the tank instead. Al'akir? Only gets out of hand if you fail to stack debuffs on boss. Might change quite a bit on heroics, but so will gear.
Though I do have to agree, there are significant issues with circle spells vs normal aoe heals. Healing Rain is great, Chain Heal is not. PoH is great, Sanctuary is not. Pallies get 2 instant aoe heals. I have no idea about druids - but it's probably nowhere near as bad as come people claim. (or maybe I'm very skeptical after all that "healing tax" junk again) Things should be more balanced between the two, not only the classes, so that not being able to group up doesn't screw class X while making Y gods.
[quote="14198049084"]I feel like the shadow priest of old now, brought along mainly to be a mana battery.Shadow priests in TBC and Wrath where quite awesome dps wise tbh Still remember guild shadow priests destroying black temple...
You obviously didn't raid sunwell.
No denying it, our mastery is (currently) the best in the game.
The old style bubble spam? Long gone. RIP.
Used very carefully as a part of a single target rotation PW:S is argueably the best combat mana regen mechanic in the game plus healing (on and off meter) worth about a crit from a basic Heal. Use it not so carefully and it is still ok but you are denying yourself lots of mana. Used carefully on two targets it seems about mana neutral. More than 2 targets or just blindly spam it and it becomes a mana sink. Maybe different in 25 mans where I suspect good old fashioned bubble spam will have a place somewhere.
Disc is now all about DA and Mastery. If you want to see what Blizz have in mind for your talents then watch ours very carefully. Where we are now, you will be going shortly.
The problem is our talents and mastery all point to Rejuvenation but due to the stupidness of WoTLK they want to avoid us having anywhere near that capacity so it sort of all flops over and dies in the corner while your example holds true for Disc.
Edited by Aylish on 29/12/10 17:03 (GMT)
I am quite certain that Innervate has been accounted for when deciding the manacost of our spells. Hence you use it at a proper time. That may however vary based on the encounter, the state of the game and your gear level. While innervate can work as an emergency spell, it may well also be a part of you regen "rotation".
I know for certain that my choice when to use innervate has changed based on the situation and mechanics throughout the 4 years I have played resto druid. In TBC and during the T6 content, I would empty my manabar before I used it, and then go back to 100% mana. Using it before this would be a waste of resources(+ the CD was longer than it currently is). Then, when they changed innervate into only restoring about 30% of my mana, aswell as being given a shorter CD I would always cast the first innervate when at about 60% mana. If the encounter would last another 3 minutes, I would be able to cast it again. If I had ignored innervate when first time at 60%, I might have ended up wasting resources that I might actually have needed but not necessarily been able to forsee.
There are other factors involved, like e.g. saving innervate for someone else you know struggle with mana when you are confident you can handle the encounter without, but innervate isn't "just an emergency tool", and yes, I do believe the manacost of our spells was chosen based on also our access to innervate every 3 minutes.
Edited by Xaar on 29/12/10 18:07 (GMT)
Damn, so much hate.
It's only the situations where fast raid healing is needed for stacked raids that I find druids lacking. Unfortunately many of the *HEROIC 25-man* encounters bottleneck on specifically this kind of healing. Chimaeron is the only encounter in normal mode where I imagine this would ever be an issue if you run with like 3 druids.
If the encounter forces a spread or doesn't require bursty healing, druids are more than fine. Might even be a bit on the high side to be honest, since druid longevity is skyrocketing.
Edit: just to give an example, druids are *excellent* on Ascendant Council, both normal and heroic.
I'm focusing on the raid healing side, because there really isn't any need for dedicated tank healing in most 25-man encounters. If there wasn't free efficient tank healing to go around, I imagine druids would be best suited for the job.
Healing meters are a very, very poor tool to measure healing overall. But they are useful for situations where you just need to dish out lots of raw healing on the raid, i.e. this bursty raid healing where people either get healed or die. That's why I bring up the numbers.
Behind the meters looms the optimal healing composition, what I'm really getting at. If druids were at the bottom of the meters every time but would still be a part of the composition because of the shape of their healing, it would be fine. For a fight that requires bursty healing I'm still convinced that the optimal healing composition involves no druids at all.
For most guilds the optimal composition will probably never matter, but it does matter on challenging fights when you actually have an option to go for it. Unlike for most people (I imagine), rerolling is very easy for people in hardcore guilds. I would love to see four colors among the healers in Grid, but if that isn't meant to be, I can just as well gear and play my priest, paladin, or shaman. And no, the situation isn't that grim now. But you should realize that I have much less personal incentive to whine about druids than you think.
After playing more on my priest after posting the OP, I'm starting to think the issue is more centered on Mana Tide than I originally thought. Mana Tide(s) with double trinkets is what powers the mindless burst healing and diverts the attention from efficiency. Druids don't need the totems to be effective, but on the other hand you can do less if you have them than e.g. priests in burst situations. That might not have a lot to do with paladins, but it's definitely a part of the equation.
Like Anaram said, I only briefly commented on the Inspiration/utility discussion (and didn't start it), and I did that because I thought it was an interesting philosophical design point. I'd be glad to pay 1% healing potential for a bubble and groupwide Innervate for example (which obviously would be laughably imbalanced). In general I find people are too focused on miniscule percentages and undervalue utility. When you talk of numbers like that in healing, it's really irrelevant in practice. The balance is never that close and that's why it's a philosophical discussion and not a practical one. No one is ever going to be benched because of 1% difference in healing. Something like 5% is a figure that might start to matter, and 10% or more has an impact worth looking at.
indeed a good attempt to discuss how druids fare in the highest end content whihc unfortunately fell into "omgz druids are broken".
I discussed the matter of inervate with a druid in my guild and he pointed out that even as an emergency measure it is lacking somewhat and he also falls onto the mana tide totems as his 'emergency measure'.
This has prompted me to consider using my shadowfiend for more than i do atm and hopefully i will see big results :)..
I think GC sort of needs to take the best thoughts into account when he does his tweaking and not the mass QQ that is around and i am sure he does this.. I am disappointed all this wasnt tested and practised enough in enough variation of gear levels in the beta with enough feedback coming out that was actually listened to. I mean its takne over a month for them to admit priest healing is poor in pvp and hopefully this will be fixed. I hope they spot the requirement for burst healing that druids need in heroics or if they are going to tend the class out (much like they made discipline almost mandatory for the lich king) we can hope that these things are considered.
I would like my friendly shamans who really do so much for the rest of us gain some benefit to make them feel like they are doing more..
And what you say about healing numbers not really telling the entire story is more true than most accept.. the numbers we achieve are not only our own skill and ability driven, you are granted buffs and guided towards being able to produce it by the other raid members whether it be the tank holding the pack of mobs for oyu to aoe down or the shamans/mage/hunter granting you bloodlust and pushing your haste through the roof, and of course the healers making sure that you live through the encounter.
good original post and good final post. pity about the middle.
our guild attempted 10 man BWD today. We were only there for 1 hour.
Group set up was:
Tanks: Pally and DK
DPS: Dk, Mage, Lock, Boomkin and rogue
Heals: 2 druids plus myself
We never downed 1st boss in the little time we had but even though i was way first in healing the problem was not with the healers.
Im not saying i dont believe OP as he is way more experienced and is discussing 25mans but from my understanding is, Blizz usually always have FOTMs and with enough feedback and qq would (hopefully) rectify this.
I have a druid and priest alt and had a pala on my US account, i would love for all 4 classes to bring something unique to a raid instead of people opting for palas and priests only.
Edited by Cows on 31/12/10 05:00 (GMT)
already rerolled priest :P
The only reason to bring a druid is for combat rez, and then you're better off bringing boomkins.
Our mastery is crap, priest mastery (At least holy mastery) is friggin awesome.
This whole idea of healing for more on targets with a hot on them is such a bad crutch, basically means we're pretty good at single target healing - but still not the best due to paladins being retarded. And then priests just have two of the best healing spells in the game for raid damage (PoM and PoH). And yeah even CoH is arguably better than wild growth, although wild growth is healing for almost double, coh is instant and not over time.
The problem is that rejuv was nerfed for aoe healing in cata, but nothing was done to replace it. If a tree-bonus was for rejuv's mana cost to be cut by 50% while in tree - this would go some way to allowing druids to at least have some kind of aoe viability on a 3 min cooldown :P
The whole reason druid hots were so cheap back in lich king and BC was that they had a large penalty compared to other healing spells. Mainly that they only healed slowly instead of instantly upon cast. The way most encounters are done, even in cata, gives preference to healers balanced around direct healing rather than healing over time.
Because rejuvenation is so expensive now - and we cant use lifebloom on more than one target any more - it means that even our 'niche' of 'slow but cheap and wide spread' heals goes out the window. Priest's still get to keep their PoH which is healing for a lot now and proccing their glyph + mastery heal. The joke is that a priest can heal their party (assuming taking constant raid damage) for ~20k each within 3 GCDs (PoM, PoH, CoH). A druid can't do anything like that in the same timeframe.
the priests mastery is pretty damn good i agree and we rarely benefit fromit fully (over 50% goes to overheal, but its free so bfd)
you forget that the mana cost for each of those spells and the hit and miss approach by PoM which, tbh, is inefficient unless predicatable.. Saying that you are missing the burst healing that is required is basically the point of the thread.. but to compare with priest talent for talent is not a good approach.. our CoH costs MORE than your wg and heals for half the amount.
Linking your burst healing to a 3 min cd is not enough really for even normal raiding bosses as the aoe damage is not a once per encounter phenomenon.
Edited by Cupofjoe on 31/12/10 13:13 (GMT)
Our 3 min CD isn't as effective as PoH, unless we use Tranquility with it, which is on a 8 min CD.
Which you should know since you are spamming it like it's all you got
With 58% of your healing done as PoH, that's more then most druids had with rejuv spamming in ICC....gg mate...gg
We have no competitive healing spells.
We have no competitive effective single target spell without using ToL
We're bad at tank healing compared to Paladins
We're bad at raid healing compared to priests
We don't bring the utility of shamans to raids.
Our mastery is bad, our talents are bad, we lack synergy and utility in our Healing spells, and you find it wierd that we whine?
Blizzard has done a mighty fine job of nerfing resto druids in every aspect, disregarded pleas from beta testers and left us hurting...so we all join the bandwagon of whines.