change to the item level dungeon entry system needed...

85 Tauren Death Knight
1900
at the moment it makes no sense guys im so pissed off now, I finnaly got the item level to enter heroics......ive been running them for the last 2 days with no problems no luck with drops yet but ive been performing well, 1st or 2nd dps usually.....I logon this evening to try and run some more for my daily badges etc..........to find i can no longer enter them.....why you may ask? because my item level has dropped to 323 from 330.......this puzzled me as i havnt changed any of my gear what so ever, in fact my item level should have gone up as i bourght the level 346 offhand sword with my justice points to replace the level 313 mace i did have in offhand.....so i asked in guild if anyone knew what was going on here and I found out the reason....


....you know why my item level dropped? because I had 3 peices of bloodied pyrium armor in my bag and it was these items which were boosting my item level.....hell i didnt even know armor in bags effecting the figure and you know what blizzard this is retarded........what your telling me is im ok for heroics if i have 3 peices of pvp gear that actully lower my dps if i put them on instead of pve gear and these peices are in my bags not even on me.......but if i get rid of them im suddenly incapable of running a heroics? how retarded a system is that? the items in question 1. were not even equipped, and 2. are pvp items so should actully lower my item level in a pve setting if the system works the way it should do.

any chance of a rethink on this? im pretty pissed off now that my only option to run more heroics is to either 1.wait for a couple of lucky drops in normal runs which could take god knows how long or 2. spend gold to buy the pvp peices back only to have them sit in my bag and not even be used, this is even more frustrating when I think that I was actully handling myself fine in heroics with the gear I currently have, putting out 10-14k dps on a regular basis.

but no I cant run them anymore because I dont have these useless pvp set peices in my bag to carry around......tell me thats not working as intended? why the hell should armor you dont even have equipped effect your ability to run content? let alone pvp items in a pve setting? simply retarded!
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85 Tauren Paladin
5610
i did not have time to read the whole post

At the moment the itemlevel feature is based on actual itemlevel not Equiped itemlevel , so if you unequiped all of your armor you could still enter heroics, So if you vendor gear in your bags it can effect your itemlevel meaning you cannot enter heroics afterwards
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85 Tauren Death Knight
1900
thats what needs to be changed then......it should be on the actual items you have equipped otherwise like you say.....you could run naked through a heroic if you wanted......im just pissed gear in my bags i wasnt even using and is actully worse for me to use as its pvp gear with resilicance rather then a useful stat the dungeon system is penalising me for selling
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85 Tauren Death Knight
1900
Soon as I get to a heroic im going to run it naked.......and claim its alright because blizzard say my item levels high enough..........and watch the qqs fly lol
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I can understand why they did this, though. It's to stop people equipping highly unsuitable gear, just because it has a higher item level, so they can get in. If they have higher level gear in their bags, this impacts the group less than if they are actually using higher level, but rubbish, gear.

Sadly, there is no ideal solution. I personally believe what they have done is the best solution I can think of, or have heard of, though.
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86 Night Elf Druid
0
...im pretty pissed off now that my only option to run more heroics is to either 1.wait for a couple of lucky drops in normal runs which could take god knows how long or 2. spend gold to buy the pvp peices back only to have them sit in my bag and not even be used...


Or you could farm some rep, do some more quests, buy a few items off the AH that you'll actually equip and avoid having the moral quandry of having items in your bag that artificially inflate your recorded iLevel.

Or you could play with your Guild and enter the dungeon manually rather than using the convenience of the dungeon finder. Though that wouldn't help you get the rewards for the once-a-day random.

...why the hell should armor you dont even have equipped effect your ability to run content? let alone pvp items in a pve setting? simply retarded!

That's a good question. I think the answer is "so that you can queue for a dungeon while doing something that your spec and gear you're expecting to use in a dungeon wouldn't be the best for". Like a Holy mainspec priest out questing in shadowform with green no-spirit gear equipped (maybe) or someone PvPing while they wait for a dungeon space.

Maybe the iLevel requirements are set a bit high, but I don't think so, having bounced off my first Heroic with a Guild group, and heard the tribulations of the Guild keeners who have been Heroic PUGging. Obviously, skill and experience will make a difference as to when someone is ready to Heroic, but how is a simple rule going to assess that?

What's burnt you is the (at first sight surprising) fact that unequipped items contribute to iLevel. Had you known that, you wouldn't have gotten rid of your PvP gear, or you wouldn't have been "misled" into thinking your gear met the criteria, and so wouldn't be (as) unhappy.

Edit: punctuation
Edited by Corse on 14/01/2011 11:01 GMT
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90 Gnome Mage
11605
thats what needs to be changed then......it should be on the actual items you have equipped.


Lets say you got a hybrid char, lets say a paladin. You're main specc is healing, but to be able to do quests and grind stuff more effectivly you have a retribution offspecc to do that. You sign up as a healer for a dungeon. you got good healing gear, but atm that gear is in your bags, adn you have relativly crappy dps gear on, but it's till better for DPs than your healing gear.

Should this person now be forced to wait around in his/her healing gear until the heroic came up, unable to quests and the like while waiting since dps in holy gear is not very effective? What abotu speccs, should he also be unable to change specc after signing up?

They could make adifferenace though and only let items bound to you count. Item with resilience would also not count. Neither would gear useless for you. Like for any items with strenght or agility on would not count towards my itemlvl while items with intellect or spirit would not count for a warrior or rogue.
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85 Orc Death Knight
0
Itemlvl system to enter heroics need changes . I propose this:

-Low itemlvl to 325 ekipped. (not having gear in bags)
-Implement a new itemlvl value for pvp gear . If pvp gloves has resilience and pvp bonus that are not an improve or pve get down pve itemlvl from 359 to 320 for example.
-make a matching system that the party have to be in same itemlvl gear or almost the most needed class have to go with a group of itemlvlsimilar or over him, cuz its the most wanted class who determines if there is much or less quewe.

I am tank geared 352 and i am bored of having groups with itemlvl 310 (cuz they have gone to repu sellers to buy items they cant wear just to raise itemlvl) and i am tired of wiping cuz this ppl. Then what i do is never go trought the finder systems and then ppl still have got more quewes.

If blizzard match me with ppl with my same itemlvl weared or similar , then i will make much more dungeons cuz i will go faster and every1 will benefit from this, cuz ppl will need to spend less time in finding groups.


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25 Undead Rogue
270
Matching people with same iLevel will only reduce the number of people available for you to play with, thus making the wait times even longer!

Tanks and Healers get more dungeon runs than dps, which leads to Tanks and Healers getting their equipment and iLevel faster. You'd end up with no dps to play with.

iLevel requirements should be based on the items the player has equipped. Any item not suitable for the class (ie Paladins wearing cloth) should lose the iLevel value of that item.
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Community
If you feel you were performing fine in heroics but no longer have the required gear level to queue for a random LFD, maybe try the old fashioned method of creating a dungeon group yourself. Group up with some of your friends and guildmates instead, and then just walk right into the dungeon entrance rather than using the LFD. You might only need to do this a few times till you get your gear level up high enough to use the LFD again.

Alternatively you could recreate the situation you had before, and just keep some higher item level gear in your bags or bank so you can use the LFD tool again. Yeah, it feels kinda sneaky, but if you're confident that your performance is fine and you know your health is high enough to take heroic damage, then this might work for you. The gear item level check for the LFD is very simple, and it's also simple to circumvent. Yes we could make it more complicated, but at the moment we're fine with how it's working. We're not currently very concerned that some circumvention is possible, because this can be useful in some cases.

Sure, I can see you're also a bit frustrated that you need to get your item level up to be able to get back into LFD heroics again, but that's part of the way gearing up goes. If you're not happy using the alternatives of keeping gear in your bags or walking directly into the dungeon entrance, then gearing up through the traditional method is the way to go.
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90 Undead Warlock
10905
14/01/2011 1:44 PMPosted by Wryxian
If you feel you were performing fine in heroics but no longer have the required gear level to queue for a random LFD, maybe try the old fashioned method of creating a dungeon group yourself. Group up with some of your friends and guildmates instead, and then just walk right into the dungeon entrance rather than using the LFD. You might only need to do this a few times till you get your gear level up high enough to use the LFD again.

Alternatively you could recreate the situation you had before, and just keep some higher item level gear in your bags or bank so you can use the LFD tool again. Yeah, it feels kinda sneaky, but if you're confident that your performance is fine and you know your health is high enough to take heroic damage, then this might work for you. The gear item level check for the LFD is very simple, and it's also simple to circumvent. Yes we could make it more complicated, but at the moment we're fine with how it's working. We're not currently very concerned that some circumvention is possible, because this can be useful in some cases.

Sure, I can see you're also a bit frustrated that you need to get your item level up to be able to get back into LFD heroics again, but that's part of the way gearing up goes. If you're not happy using the alternatives of keeping gear in your bags or walking directly into the dungeon entrance, then gearing up through the traditional method is the way to go.


Hit point is (I noticed this too 8/12/10) is that your gear in your bags counts towards your ilvl.

This is not normal, or an intended feature. It's a bug.
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85 Tauren Druid
4400
Your "..." speak is hard to read y'know.
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85 Draenei Shaman
12035
13/01/2011 11:43 PMPosted by Molochius

....you know why my item level dropped? because I had 3 peices of bloodied pyrium armor in my bag and it was these items which were boosting my item level.....hell i didnt even know armor in bags effecting the figure and you know what blizzard this is retarded........what your telling me is im ok for heroics if i have 3 peices of pvp gear that actully lower my dps if i put them on instead of pve gear and these peices are in my bags not even on me.......but if i get rid of them im suddenly incapable of running a heroics? how retarded a system is that? the items in question 1. were not even equipped, and 2. are pvp items so should actully lower my item level in a pve setting if the system works the way it should do.

Did you actually check the stats on the PvP armor or did you just dismiss them as possiblity because they have resilience? Because last I checked PvP stuff is greatly itemized especially for plate classes. You know those 140 crit on the PvE item that are resilience on PvP gear aren't worth the 100 strength (random numbers!) you gain by using the PvP gear. So maybe that wasn't the case for your items, but currently PvP items are often the better choice then PvE-options that you can access - so removing or discouraging their use (i.e. lower value for avg. item level) in PvE should only be done if itemization is fixed. If PvP items are BiS for your current progress, you should use them and not go back to worse PvE item just because they don't have useless resilience (instead they have almost useless crit or mastery depending on your class/spec)
Edited by Lantha on 14/01/2011 14:11 GMT
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Yeah, I got to level 85 one, or two weeks ago. And I maybe did a zillion normals (only GB and LC, loot: 320+ item level). And after a few days I had 328 item level, one level away (argh!!). So I bought a Trinket from Auction House for 1000g. That was enough, and I am doing HC's now. But what I noticed (and yes, I am late) was that I had forgotten to put on the trinket when I did my first HC.
So, it was enough to have the trinket with the right item level IN MY BAG. I don't know what about you guys, and it really helped me to do HC's, but I think it's lame that it's enough to have gear in the bags to enter the HC's.
So if there's an Swedish 12 year old, imature, NINJA Paladin who have "needed" (stolen) all cloth gears from healers, dps, ALL cloth carriers and THEN get into a HC, without the right experience, and the atitude to be in a HC. And then that little Kid will/can ruin for thousands of good, serious players who want to discover the content in the raids Blizzard have given us. Please fix this "bug".
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85 Dwarf Hunter
6390
14/01/2011 2:07 PMPosted by Lantha

Did you actually check the stats on the PvP armor or did you just dismiss them as possiblity because they have resilience? Because last I checked PvP stuff is greatly itemized especially for plate classes. You know those 140 crit on the PvE item that are resilience on PvP gear aren't worth the 100 strength (random numbers!) you gain by using the PvP gear. So maybe that wasn't the case for your items, but currently PvP items are often the better choice then PvE-options that you can access - so removing or discouraging their use (i.e. lower value for avg. item level) in PvE should only be done if itemization is fixed. If PvP items are BiS for your current progress, you should use them and not go back to worse PvE item just because they don't have useless resilience (instead they have almost useless crit or mastery depending on your class/spec)


This.
The vest I'm wearing actually gives me MORE dps than the 359 crafted one in a PvE setting. Part of that is going to be corrected once crafted items get gem slots, but still. The difference with iLvl333 items for stats that *matter* (Agi, Crit) is simply astronomical.
Bloodied <xxx> are crap items and I'm a wee little ashamed to still be wearing them. But at least for hunters, the Gladiator stuff is pretty good...
Edited by Boarbane on 14/01/2011 14:21 GMT
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YES! Exacly what my post was about! Great!
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Community
14/01/2011 2:17 PMPosted by Lunkentus
So if there's an Swedish 12 year old, imature, NINJA Paladin who have "needed" (stolen) all cloth gears from healers, dps, ALL cloth carriers and THEN get into a HC, without the right experience, and the atitude to be in a HC. And then that little Kid will/can ruin for thousands of good, serious players who want to discover the content in the raids Blizzard have given us. Please fix this "bug".
If someone circumvents the gear level check to get into an LFD heroic but is actually unable to perform as needed -- perhaps due to being completely inappropriately geared or inexperienced as in your example, then groups are still able to vote kick that player out if need be.
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85 Human Paladin
0
There are 5 factions of which it is easy to get t revered with 3 and honoured with 2 through quests, so just do all the quests and kit yourself out with Reputation rewards and TH quest rewards.

The ring of blood gives you a nice 333 weapon for any class, and the prequest to the entire zone(for alliance it's snooping around Stormwind) gives you a 333piece of armour. There's also plenty of BoE 333's that have dropped for people in instances that you will be able to get your hands on if you have a bit of cash and crafted items are quite good some of the time too. If you have to put on a bit of PVP gear so be it but try to balance it with other stuff and if you aren't confident with your gear you can get it gemmed/enchanted, the enchants for head/shoulders are relatively cheap and it's quite simple to get the reputation for them through quests.
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85 Undead Rogue
5935
14/01/2011 2:34 PMPosted by Wryxian
If someone circumvents the gear level check to get into an LFD heroic but is actually unable to perform as needed -- perhaps due to being completely inappropriately geared or inexperienced as in your example, then groups are still able to vote kick that player out if need be.

The problem with this method is that he will just underperform the next time he is in a dungeon group. And that means the next group have to vote kick this player to. And so it continues.

Also, you can't queue for random dungeons still, even if you make your own group and travel to the instance yourself. Most players want to do that random for the extra benefits.

I cheated myself into heroics, but I still think it's a poor implementation of ilvl to have gear in bags/bank count towards your avg score.
Edited by Kha on 14/01/2011 15:06 GMT
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85 Draenei Priest
4595
If you feel you were performing fine in heroics but no longer have the required gear level to queue for a random LFD, maybe try the old fashioned method of creating a dungeon group yourself.

When I queue up for dungeons I usually see some people asking for groups in SW chat. When I come back from the dungeon the same people are still spamming in chat for a group. I do not think this is a feasible solution with the dungeon finder in place. Why would I walk to a dungeon as a tank/healer if I can get teleported there instantly?

If someone circumvents the gear level check to get into an LFD heroic but is actually unable to perform as needed -- perhaps due to being completely inappropriately geared or inexperienced as in your example, then groups are still able to vote kick that player out if need be.

Every how many minutes? As I stated in another thread, the current, very long timers allow players to practically abuse the system by queuing for a dungeon they are not able to perform in, and force the group into a wipe feast. Leaving a group and re-queuing is not an option at least for DDs, as it takes about 40-50 minutes till a group is ready.
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