World of Warcraft

A Hunters universal form of CC is Freezing Trap. It is to the Hunter class what Sheep is to mages, or Fear to Warlocks, yet unlike its cousins, and to be perfectly frank here, Freezing Trap is in a pretty bad state. In fact I would actually say that compared to other forms of basic CC it is fundamentally gimped at the moment.

Now don’t get ahead of yourselves here, this is by no means a “QQ” thread, and yes I know that must sound cliché by now, but its true.

What I hope to accomplish with this thread to get Blizzards attention in regards what I see as a glaring issue for the Hunter class in both competitive and casual PVP, and also to incite some healthy discussion amongst the Hunter community.

As most of you know Hunters are severely underrepresented in Arenas at the moment and while I do not think that their CC is the most prominent thing that needs tending to right now, it is up there, and it is a very real problem. Fixing the way Hunter CC works is one stepping stone toward a better PVP future for the Hunter class, and imho it is long overdue.

Now I am going to try and steer this thread away from long paragraphs of personal opinion and just stick with the facts. This is why I have compiled a simple “pros and cons” list for Freezing Trap, and a similar list for other forms of important CC.

I have probably missed out a few things here and there so feel free to make any suggestions / corrections.

Hopefully this will clearly outline exactly why a Hunters CC pales in comparison to others.

Freezing Trap pros:

* Freezing Trap cannot be interrupted by interrupt effects such as a Rogues Kick.
* Cannot be interrupted by CC effects such as stuns, though these effects can still delay its execution (duh.)
* Cannot be affected by “anti-haste” abilities.
* Cannot be affected by spell pushback.
* Can be used while on the move.
* Can be placed on the ground in anticipation of en enemy walking into its path. (Not exactly a major high point in my honest opinion, but it has its uses.)
* Although very situational in pvp it has the potential to CC more than one target at a time. In PvE specifically this could equate to multiple mobs being frozen with a bit of added setup.

Freezing Trap cons:

* To CC a target that is at range it requires the individual use of two separate abilities and then a final mouse click in order to execute. This is of course very clunky and inefficient, especially when combined with point two.
* Requires aiming.
* Will sometimes need to be combined with Scatter Shot to ensure a solid hit. This is akin to a Mage needing to catch their target in a Frost Nova before they can use Sheep effectively.
* Sometimes Scatter Shot AND trap launcher will need to be combined, resulting in the use of three separate abilities, aiming, and then a final mouse click to execute. Of course this also means that Scatter Shots cool down will be blown, and I can only assume that it was designed with different functions in mind.
* Is affected by lag to a much larger degree than other CC effects. This is due to the disadvantages stated in the bullet points above.
* Cannot be added to a focus macro for quick and efficient execution in Arenas or PvE encounters, and in general cannot be executed as quickly or efficiently as other forms of basic CC.
* Has a dramatically increased chance to fail against opponents with movement speed boosts, such as a Rogue under the effects of Sprint. This is due to the setup and aiming required.
* Will fail if launched at an enemy just as they use a charge type ability. As far as I am aware this is not the case with other forms of basic cc.
* Due to the nature of how Traps work you have a dramatically decreased chance to successfully CC your desired target if they have an ally or even a pet near them.
* It is possible for one of your opponents to intercept a Trap for a team mate, taking the effect instead. This could be greatly beneficial to the enemy team in a number of ways, just one example being that a “dps” could take the Trap for their healer. It is a bit situational and shouldn’t happen too consistently but it is a solid possibility, and a hugely glaring flaw.
* Requires 3 separate key bindings for optimal use. (The trap itself, then the trap launcher ability, and then Scatter Shot.)
* Cannot benefit from haste as it has no actual cast time, despite the fact that it may as well have one due to how long it can take to execute properly.
* Lengthy cool down for a basic form of CC.
* Traps can be dispelled even despite their many drawbacks, and due to their cool down they cannot be reapplied.
* Breaks on any form of damage.
* Traps have no Glyph to remove DoT effects from their target. Add this to the point above and the fact that Traps have a cool down and you can see why this is a problem.

Now most forms of CC come with disadvantages, but none of them are as glaring as the ones that Freezing Trap suffers from.

Just a quick list of disadvantages for three very prominent forms of CC:

Sheep, Fear, and Cyclone.

First of all here is a “universal list” of disadvantages that affect each of these three abilities. This will then be followed by the “unique list” which will of course show the disadvantages unique to each individual ability.

Universal list:

* Can be interrupted by interrupt effects.
* Can be interrupted by CC effects such as stuns.
* Requires the caster to be stationary, as it has a small cast time.
* Cast time can be affected by “anti-haste” effects. (Although it can also be affected in a very positive way by actual haste.)
* Can be affected by spell pushback from attackers, provided there is no pushback immunity active.
* Only one target can be affected at a time.

Unique list:

Sheep:

* Heals the target. (Yep that’s a baddie for sure.)
* Breaks on any form of damage.

Fear:

* Has a couple more counters than other forms of CC.

Cyclone:

* Makes the target Invulnerable. (Can be seen as an advantage or disadvantage depending on how you look at it / what the situation is.)

Now it should be starting to sink in just how disadvantaged Freezing Trap is compared to other forms of basic CC. In my honest opinion there really is no debating it. (But feel free to debate it regardless, I feel it’s a healthy discussion for the good of the Hunter class.)

My suggestion.

My suggestion is just a simple one. Make traps work like any other target based ability. You have your target, you click the Trap, and the Trap hit’s the target. Done.

Then take the trap launcher ability and change it to “Lay Trap,” which would have no cool down and simply lay the next trap selected on the ground.

Or perhaps make it a stance; “Lay Trap” mode, and “Launch Trap” mode. Simple yet effective.

Now obviously I don’t realistically expect Blizzard to implement this exact idea, but I would love to see something similar, or just an alternative solution that is just as (if not more) effective at resolving hunters CC issues.

I am sure some of you guys are going to disagree with me, so be sure to write your opinions on the subject but please try to keep it constructive and stick to the facts. Also remember to correct me if I have gotten any of my own facts wrong, as I am sure you will do, so that I can correct them.

To the Devs specifically:

Would also be great if we can get a blue response to this thread, if only to weigh in your thinking on the subject. I.e. Do you feel as though Hunter CC is an issue? Are there any plans in the pipelines? Just some general insight into the developers perspectives on this matter would be much appreciated.

Very nice and well-thought-out post, and I must say I agree with everything bar this:

"while I do not think that their CC is the most prominent thing that needs tending to right now"

I think the issues with Freezing Traps have probably cost me more arena wins than anything else, tbh. I think the biggest issue for me isn't even the clunkiness, because keybound it's still damn quick--the issue is that you can, even with scatter shot, lay a trap right under someone and they can wander JUST on that little line outside of it and somehow not trigger it. I've had players run directly over it and, down to latency and/or trap trigger range, the traps don't trigger.

I think the best solutions are one of these:

* Make an extra trap launching ability that simply freezes your target into a freezing trap, wherever they stand, 1 second after firing (the arming time would stay the same, for fairness).

or

* Increase the trap's trigger radius back to what it used to be, and decrease the trigger time.

(Edit, forgot to say--either of your solutions are great as well, these are just additional.)

I can't count the times I've been focusing on a dps, go to scatter + trap the hpala and get a PvP trinket/run from trap in the face. The worst part is, because they -see- where the trap has been laid, a well-coordinated team can then blow the traps--say, the focused, dotted dps running into it, or the hpala running into it on a target switch etc.

And tbh, I see no way to effectively use freeze traps at range -without- first using scatter.

Anyway, TLDR, I agree with your post and find freezing traps the most frustrating thing about hunter PvP right now--and I hope they increase the trigger range or make it a targetted spell.

I haven't played my hunter in a very long time (was main in Vanilla & TBC, stopped with it after) so my hunter information is far outdated, but to me you seem to be making many valid points.

You did leave out the fact that Hunters also have Wyvern Sting though? I realize this is a form of CC just for survival hunters, but it's a good one nontheless

I still dont know what was the problem with freezing arrow..srsly -.-

Class is too different for me; make every class the same.

You could just make another character that's not a hunter if you don't like hunters, you know.

I don't think anyone has an objection to it being unique, or to the idea behind the mechanics, but the actual implementation of it is faulty just because of the platform.

Aiming something and having to target it is actually fine by me, but the fact that this is a video game with server lag makes it much less practical. I'd prefer larger trigger radius at least to make up for it; I'm not sure why they ever decreased it : /

I didn't read it all but i want to add , traps can be silence , if you see scatter on your healer , counterspel/spell lock or whatever an the hunter will not be able to place/launch any trap.

You did leave out the fact that Hunters also have Wyvern Sting though? I realize this is a form of CC just for survival hunters, but it's a good one nontheless

1 min CD , shares DR with traps , too short lasting even without DRs , can be dispelled by almost eveyrclass in game , aswell broke by things such tremor totem and WOTF.

15/01/2011 10:29 AMPosted by Nikomohunter

Class is too different for me; make every class the same.

You could just make another character that's not a hunter if you don't like hunters, you know.

Clearly I like the Hunter class or else I would not have bothered to make this thread. One of the major things that draws me in is just how different it actually is.

Indeed traps are a unique mechanic, and that’s one thing I like about them. However that still doesn’t change the fact that they are a flawed mechanic in the grand scheme of things.

In a competitive (or even casual) pvp environment you want efficient and reliable CC. Traps just don’t live up to that.

I would still like to retain the flavour of being able to lay Traps on the ground, and that can easily be achieved while still fixing the obvious issues they suffer from.

On another note - Cheers for the input guys, keep it coming.

I agree with you, and you made a fine job of writing this post.
You missed one pro which is quite important.
-unlike any other CC traps can be used on 2,3 maybe even 4 mobs at the same time.
Heres how.
1) Use trap launcher to put a trap between you and the mob 1.
2) Wait 30 seconds for the CD to end (trap stays a minute).
3) Pull mobs (in party you can have the trap be between tank and trap)
4) As the mob 1 gets frozen place another trap in front of you
5) If needed use distracting shot on mob 2
6) Mob 2 walks into a trap and is frozen
7) 30 seconds after the second trap is placed you can repeat step 4-6 for a third freeze trap

If you "boosted" your freeze trap to last 90 seconds 3 mobs should be no problem and you COULD trap another mob

SV adds 1 more mob to the count of CCed targets.

HOWEVER I agree with you. The disadvantage of targeting (placing) traps on mobile mobs in a fight and resisting, not to mention being broken by AoE with its 30 sec CD is overwhelming the multiple CC possibility.

15/01/2011 12:02 PMPosted by Bloodraven

I agree with you, and you made a fine job of writing this post.
You missed one pro which is quite important.
-unlike any other CC traps can be used on 2,3 maybe even 4 mobs at the same time.
Heres how.
1) Use trap launcher to put a trap between you and the mob 1.
2) Wait 30 seconds for the CD to end (trap stays a minute).
3) Pull mobs (in party you can have the trap be between tank and trap)
4) As the mob 1 gets frozen place another trap in front of you
5) If needed use distracting shot on mob 2
6) Mob 2 walks into a trap and is frozen
7) 30 seconds after the second trap is placed you can repeat step 4-6 for a third freeze trap

If you "boosted" your freeze trap to last 90 seconds 3 mobs should be no problem and you COULD trap another mob

SV adds 1 more mob to the count of CCed targets.

HOWEVER I agree with you. The disadvantage of targeting (placing) traps on mobile mobs in a fight and resisting, not to mention being broken by AoE with its 30 sec CD is overwhelming the multiple CC possibility.

We are speaking of pvp.

15/01/2011 12:02 PMPosted by Bloodraven

I agree with you, and you made a fine job of writing this post.
You missed one pro which is quite important.
-unlike any other CC traps can be used on 2,3 maybe even 4 mobs at the same time.
Heres how.
1) Use trap launcher to put a trap between you and the mob 1.
2) Wait 30 seconds for the CD to end (trap stays a minute).
3) Pull mobs (in party you can have the trap be between tank and trap)
4) As the mob 1 gets frozen place another trap in front of you
5) If needed use distracting shot on mob 2
6) Mob 2 walks into a trap and is frozen
7) 30 seconds after the second trap is placed you can repeat step 4-6 for a third freeze trap

If you "boosted" your freeze trap to last 90 seconds 3 mobs should be no problem and you COULD trap another mob

SV adds 1 more mob to the count of CCed targets.

HOWEVER I agree with you. The disadvantage of targeting (placing) traps on mobile mobs in a fight and resisting, not to mention being broken by AoE with its 30 sec CD is overwhelming the multiple CC possibility.

This thread is mainly specific to PvP but you do have a point on the fact that Freezing Trap has the potential to CC more than one target. However this is extremely situational in PvP and I can only see it happening on a consistent basis with a Marksman Hunter blowing Readiness, and even then due to the inherit drawbacks that Freezing Trap suffers from a number of things could go wrong, leaving you with a Readiness on cool down and nothing to show for it. Nonetheless I have added this to the pros section because it is a valid point -

* Although very situational in pvp it has the potential to CC more than one target at a time. In PvE specifically this could equate to multiple mobs being frozen with a bit of added setup.

Surprised there aren’t many Hunters throwing around their opinions here.

Freezing Trap is awfully weak when compared to other CC. Do you agree with this? Or do you have a different view?

Hunters seem to be getting some tweaks at the moment and I really don’t think that this should be overlooked. Something needs to be done to at least make a Hunters CC more efficient and reliable.

I do agree, I can't really add anything as everybody has already written out everything I can think off :D

If anything they should just give us an instant called 'freezing arrow'
shoots a freezing arrow at the enemy and freezes them for half or three quarters of the time a freezing trap would and should use the same cooldown as freezing trap

I feel my traps and CC are limited to very specific conditions and very limited effectiveness when up against skilled players. If I successfully wyvern sting, it can get dispelled. If I manage to get a freezing trap off, it gets dispelled. Most classes nail my snake trap with one of their arrays of instant aoes, auras, thorns, ret aura, consecration or other many aoe based abilities.

One thing is, if they get dispelled, theyre now on cooldown and bought me a couple of seconds. If I were most other classes, I could just reapply the CC, but I cant as a hunter, as theyre now on cooldown. If I were to use readiness as a MM talent to retrap, again, as mentioned here, the situation may have passed, it would get dispelled again and I'm back to square 1, ineffective CC, on cooldown.

My main issues with traps, from an strict PvE perspective are:
- Cooldown is too long, making reapplying impossible.
- Arming time makes them unreliable. NPCs are often "predictable", but the slightest glimpse of latency, or just an odd pathing, will make it fail.
- Trap launcher's pseudo-GCD. When you activate trap launcher, you need to wait for server response before being able to launch the trap.

For which I'd suggest:
15 sec cooldown, no arming time when launched (as it incurs on flight time already) and Trap Launcher being resolved client-side (allowing the use of macros). The latter part would also be solved with the trapping "stances" that the OP suggested.

17/01/2011 3:53 AMPosted by Golgoth

My main issues with traps, from an strict PvE perspective are:
- Cooldown is too long, making reapplying impossible.
- Arming time makes them unreliable. NPCs are often "predictable", but the slightest glimpse of latency, or just an odd pathing, will make it fail.
- Trap launcher's pseudo-GCD. When you activate trap launcher, you need to wait for server response before being able to launch the trap.

For which I'd suggest:
15 sec cooldown, no arming time when launched (as it incurs on flight time already) and Trap Launcher being resolved client-side (allowing the use of macros). The latter part would also be solved with the trapping "stances" that the OP suggested.

hunters' cc its pretty good as Eltharyon said, u can always use a frozen trap and wait cd before pulling, however this post its more pvp aimed.

The most basic thing is as Vurnhric said, if u compare freezing trap, to be really effective you need trap launcher + good aim + luck (beside aim if you are playing against pets or 3v3 or such, you can always hit on wrong target) + your enemy must not have sprint or reflect shield or such, or you only way to do somthing will be vanished. (oh and I forgot, can be resisted, even if u got 2/2 on the survi skill which I don't remember now.)
compared to fear, sheep, and cyclone, its just ridiculus, because of all what Vurnhric said...

just can't be better explained, great post! i do agree on everything.

Good post.

Can't really argue against the PvP comments.

From the point of view of PvE I think that traps are pretty good. The launcher is clunky but useful. As mentioned in the OP other CC have their own drawbacks. Compared to other CC the only drawback we have is the clunky mechanics of using the launcher. Ok if a mob is moving it takes a bit of skill to position the trap or extra time to scatter shot then trap them, but as a plus we get the flexibility of deciding where a mob will be frozen. Need a mob in a particular spot? Place the trap there then distracting shot them to pull them over the trap. As has been mentioned with some careful timing we can CC 2 mobs (3 if you include wyvern sting).
For PvE hunters CC is pretty good! It would be nice if they smoothed out the mechanics of using it, but I think the functionality of it is about where we want to be.

I think hunters should be able to plant more than one of each traps. Like two of each traps could be active or planted at same time. Also they should remove the stupid animation. You can see miles away when hunter is planting a trap.