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Thanks for the effort Ailawiu. Gave us a few things to think about. Personally I think Cata is a better expansion than previous ones. Sure there are some annoying things, but it's certainly a heck of a lot better than Wrath. The issue is not - in my opinion - that players got bored or whatever. The game is - at its core - a grind with an expectation of continuously receiving more reward for your effort. Cata bucked that trend. Cata was a big wake-up call for many, as the encounters are certainly more challenging. As a result, it's a LOT harder for say 15 people to carry 10 others. Both 10 and 25 man requires a solid group with little margin for error.
This is why we decided to focus on 10 man only. I am not looking at opening the 10 vs 25 debate - both have pros and cons, and encounters can be easier on either mode depending on the mechanics. The main issue is finding 10 or 25 people that are good enough to work as a team. And in this case, it's much easier to find 10. We will probably never move to a 25 man team, simply because our niche (late night raiding) relies on a much smaller population from which we can practically recruit.
I am however surprised that so many of the top guilds from Wrath have seemingly struggled in Cata on this server, and I believe it's because the content has exposed that weakness mentioned at the top of this post.
TLDR: you cannot afford to have to carry people any more.
Edited by Majillis on 18/04/2011 09:43 BST
Biggest problem is that there is no recruits ( good ones ) on bronzebeard . This server is low/mid populated and its really hard to find descent players ( dont want to think how hard is to find good recruit for PF's ) . On the other hand since BC came out and arena/bg system with it , pve lost good player base . If you check wowprogress first 25 realms are pvp ones , and on each of those i can tell you at least 3-4 " famous " pvp-ers . Also alot of ppl decided to go 10 man , its easier to organise and coordinate with smaller group , and you get the same reward in the end . So history of pve is from 40 man raids to 25 man to 10 man in the end . Next expansion will be 5 man raids .... ?
Encounters in this tier of raiding are interesting , but than again nothing new . We will not get any new ppl anytime soon on BB . For example , when i started this game ( ZG patch ) , i allready knew on what realm im going . W/o thinking it was Sylvanas . Why ? Vurtne played there . Alot of ppl think like this when they want to transfer or reroll on other realm . What can you offer to some1 who wants to transfer on BB ? Nothing . Digre chat , horrible pugs , and few HC guilds . PvP dead , PvE ok-ish ( i know that some weekly 25 man pugs clear 2/13 heroic on other realms in like few hours ) .
I rerolled on BB in early 2009 couse i have some irl friends here , tbh i didnt even knew about this realm before that :P For me BB is ok , i do some bg's , some raids , chat with guildies and log-off .
Im really glad that ppl from top guilds care about this realm , and our realm-wide progress , but imho things are not looking great atm . WIll see what next tier brings . Until than GL all on progress ;)
Edited by Paranoic on 18/04/2011 11:59 BST
My question back there, "I wonder how things are going in other guilds" was more about "what's actually wiping you"? :) I'm honestly curious about that.
We've wiped to plenty of bizzare crap, including Feludius chaining Hydro Lances, Lightning Rods exploding during phase transition, Flame Strikes despawning/Frost orbs changing targets even *before* Blizzard messed it up, Atramedes/Magmaw despawning, ninja pulling Al'akir, me forgetting to jump to Rohash for ultimate, Locks killing MCed players on Nefarian, random abilities like Spirit Wolves Bash procing Indomitable, people forgetting about threat on Cho'gall, someone hitting shielded Electron, people forgetting to change PvP specs/gear.
The "everyone knows what you're supposed to do?" and wiping because they have no idea is common, too ;) Then there's "someone" coming up with brilliant and innovative tactic which I mentioned at the very beginning of raid except he was too busy watching TV.
One day you rip through bosses like they're nothing. On other, you wonder how people tie their shoes in the morning without breaking their fingers.
E: I forgot the old classic, running away with Meteors on Valiona.
Edited by Ailawiu on 18/04/2011 12:38 BST
Well im gonna be honest , but whats wiping us is actually roster problems . Maloriak , i dont see how we can do it w/o at least 2 warlocks , most of the time we have non . We were late on chim kill simply becouse we did not have " perfect setup " . And ofc. there are things you Ail said , like we all know what to do , next second im running on the wrong way on Atramedes while have tracking on me :P Its allways some little stupid thing that wipe the raid . I know thats well known thing in all guilds .
"One day you rip through bosses like they're nothing. On other, you wonder how people tie their shoes in the morning without breaking their fingers."
This , for example , one week we 1 shot everything , next reset we are stuck for 2 hrs on some " farm boss " ( read not interrupting Halfus :P ) .
About what I wrote in previous post , its true , good pvp realms have really good pve guilds , and most of them are high populated so you have alot of apps if your guild is ok in progress .
Here , well , apps are here but ppl ( and gear ) are just not on that level where they can help in progress .
Omnitron HC tonight ! I hope we will kill it since its messy fight :P
this week we have been mostly wiping to omnotron heroic. Best go was around 60%, prob the biggest thing to make us go splat was toxitron causing havoc, the fight doesnt seam to bad but looks like its a steep learning curve for some so more wipes inc.
I was gonae put some comments on recruitment as well, but then, i remembered half the players i have recruited from bronzebeard are braindead anyway, not worth the mention. In 3 years i have probably recruited 10 good players from this server, to me it says it all when its our xrealmers who make more of an impact.
Well, they nerfed completely insignifcant things about this fight. If you were getting to 20% before hp change, you were capable of getting the kill anyway. One thing about Toxitron is that Entrapment actually works on slimes - assuming you have them proc the trap and not the boss. It's 2 extra seconds of them being immobile (perhaps Earthbind totem talent - whatever it was called - works too, don't remember). Plus, you can abuse Arcanotron shield to have your Mages own the adds completely - too bad we never do that since we have 1. They usually die before grip happens - if not, make sure your melee stays away, so you don't get gripped right inside them. He's a bastard anyway, loves killing people together with Electron.
'Sides, at this point, only end bosses and Council (who are tied with AA25 for most annoying boss in this tier) are harder than golems, so might as well go for Nefarian.
Edited by Ailawiu on 18/04/2011 14:20 BST
Just to name and shame myself :-)
On my warlock Whipcracker we were on the trons ....new fight to me so was listening extremely carefuly to all the info ....i did everythin i was supposed to....
Somethin happened that made a few peeps die at the same time but not me...i was one of the few left standing with the trons nearly down....woop i thought..
Suddenly i was targeted by a Toxitron blob....amg i thought....fight is nearly over.....ill run backwards and continue nuking :)
BAM !!!!!!!!!!........the trons disappeared......a large intake of breath from all on vent...and the Guild Master shouting " Who The **** Reset The Bosses???? "
"Ermmm".....little voice that seemed to come from myself....."sorry......."
Once again Ed and Crew.....sorry lol :)
And ty for taking time out for all the info Ailawiu.....its lovely to see that you arent too big for your cloth boots and that you do care about our lil home in Bronzebeard :) x
Somewhat weird suggestion I heard is posting about lewt/dkp. I don't really see how this is important, as we don't have any innovative solutions, but pff, whatever. (although I do kinda remember someone selling BoE's in first week of ToC - no one in guild really wanted it?^^). It's not like it's a big secret, most of that is in our forums, except in Polish. We kinda considered Loot Council before, but decided that's it's more trouble than its worth.
We use standard DKP system with set prices. No haggling, no auctions, you just /roll and get it if you have most dkp. We used item priorities in the past, but at this point, itemization is largely streamlined, so there's only "ranged weapons = hunter first" and trinkets. Yeah, healers get equal shot at non-spirit pieces, assuming they're an actual upgrade - seeing how hybrids need spirit for +hit. Obviously, there's rank priority - there's "raid member" for people with high attendance (usually it's like 90% of the raid team, so...), members - for those who slacked a bit, initiate - obvious and finally "decoration" - which is pretty much old raiders who went casual/social, but wanted to stay in the guild. These don't raid, except maybe occasional alt run. They could get back into main team, but that will take a while.
We don't immediately demote people after they fall under some arbitrary attendance %, just
when it's really out of line. Might also do it if they mess up something really big during raids, but that's rare - usually some silly drama, rather than "I stood in a fire".
Offspec pieces are free roll, provided no main spec wants them - including 'initiates' - although we act like Loot Council with those. We give priority to people who actually use them in raids - say, offtank items to people who tank on Halfus/Conclave, or dps gear for healers who occasionally respec instead of swapping them in middle of instance. Only later you get those "for fun", farming or dancing on mailboxes.
BoE epics are normal roll. If no one wants them, they go to AH, big suprise here. About the only thing that happens is that we sometimes sell them to guild alts for half price.
Hoarding is usually a problem with system like that, and we aren't really an exception. We "gently remind" people to roll on gear, and expect reasonable explanation as to why they pass on it. And no, "I'd take it but then I'll be lower than X" is not an answer. 'Course, it's not perfect, but it works.
People 'on standby' get normal DKP, provided they're ready to step in if they're needed. That way, benched people still have a shot at gear and don't fall behind. Of course, if you were just pretending to be 'ready' but couldn't show up when we needed you, you get nothing.
During "progression", we give DKP normally for wiping. At least that way you still get something, even if you wiped entire evening on something hard.
Guild bank - we usually split gold after everything is finally dead, or before major patches. Sure, you have to spend your own money on everything until then, but you get a reward for finally doing your job, plus it's nice motivation before new tier starts. Cauldrons are kinda new thing nowadays, but with recent guild perks, we simply have everyone put 1 flask in the guild bank, and it's usually enough - plus it saves money.
Epic shards are provided for 372 loot, other materials might depend on availability, though you usually buy them on your own.
Officers don't really get any special benefits - except raid spot priority. Then again, we're also raid-leading, so that's a given. No loot priority, no free repairs(well, maybe once in a while)/guild bank goldz. You earn your points like a (raid)member, you roll against them. About the only exception are Legendaries, or special stuff, like Invincible.
Edited by Ailawiu on 20/04/2011 17:06 BST
Quick tip on Tron Defense System. Last night we were going for our second kill. First pull had me tanking Electron and Toxitron. This means big aoe damage when Magmatron and Shadow Conductor is up. Every time a Shadow Conductor was up Electron's shield was up too (happened 4 times). Hitting Electron's shield is basically an insta wipe, especially with the raid wide damage from shadow conductor.
So the raid would stack, and I would be maybe 8-10 yards away to prevent cleaves from hitting the shield. Shield Wall was up every time so this with Enraged Regen and maybe a healer CD was no problem.
At 3% it happened again, only this time the shadow conductor was ME. I failed, brought him in too close and cleaves wiped us :) We got it on the 3rd pull but it wasted precious time (our schedule is so short as it is). So just a tip: If you are tanking Electron AND his shield is up AND you are the shadow conductor, just stay away from the raid a little. Or stop dps to avoid cleaves (yeah right). But don't bring him too close or it's a wipe anyway.
Juts one think to add, with Awu forget to include in his post, ist how we get invited to raid, we dont have any sign up system, its working purely on 'show up' and very high atendance of the players:)
Motivate people, reward them, create good raiding atmosphere and you are close to perfect:)
As my mother always taught me, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything, so yeah it was a bit pointless me making that comment and yes the 30% creeping buff was a big mistake. It turned 11/12 of the encounters trivial and in fact broke the mechanics of most of the fights (like not being able to be one shotted by the ghosts on Lady Deathwhisper for example, and there were many others). I don't think people thought they were uberskilled - we knew the buff was a joke. The second biggest mistake they made in ICC was making the end boss encounter impossible without Disc Priests. But this is all water under the bridge anyway.
Gratz to PF for beating T11 - enjoy your farming while we wait for Zul'Aman For Dummies ;)
The problem with BB is not lack of decent players, it's the fact they are spread around so many guilds. On the flip side, you do get 'stable' guilds which makes for very nice atmospheres and social sides of things but (relatively) crap progression. There is very little guild hopping but this does lead to stagnation. On high-pop, high-progress servers you see people moving guilds a lot - people go from x/12 guilds to x+y/12 guilds and vice versa - a lot of dynamism that keeps people on their toes. You pays your money, you takes your choice. If PF were not exclusively Polish I think we would see a lot more ex-PF players in other guilds on this server and you'd probably have a lot of ex-SoL (OK I know you already basically are but you take my point), ex-Chimera, ex-Echo etc players on your roster.
Well, its hard to recruit good people in this server.
Making posts with info about bosses wont help people that much i think as raidleaders and officers *SHOULD* study the bosses (also raiders should do it ofc) and getting an own swing into it.
Some fights are just a pain for some players.
But yeah, a right setup does allot nowdays.
we pretty much use a Frost DK for every raid were adds are involved. Like magmaw 10m hc, frost dk just keeps kiting them while other dps keep nuking boss / big add, when head is about to going down druid starfall and the parasite's pretty much die.
But atm, we have also the problem with people having RL issue's after getting used to eachother in raids.
But i think it will go up slightly on 10m raiding guilds on this server, but yeah, people still think they are great as they were great in Wrath, and *suck* nowdays cause of movement and you cant really afford to spam heal every1.
Coördination and study bosses and the right attitude will bring you to a high lvl.
Gear aint always an issue to do 10m heroics. ofc it comes with it, yet its doable with still some blue's.
Also the problem is (the attitude) that people dont like wiping. By that peopel gonna leave, server change, or just stop for a little while till they getting boosted up again.
Hope this server will get better tho
Thnx for this thread Ail, some usefull tips
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