Topic RP restrictions?
No-one has any right to tell you what you can and can't do (within the rules) whether their RP'ing or not... Your a bit vague on what actually happened so im just going to assume you needed to use part of the cathederal which was being used for another RP at the same time..
Cathedral incidents have occured, but they didn't spark this thread. Somebody (I'm not going to name anyone because besides being wrong, I honestly believe the problem goes beyond that one person or guild) saw fit to give a guild mate of mine, so much hassle about something used in an RP addon, that he came close to picking up and moving to Argent Dawn.
Overall, the use of high traffic public training area's is merely annoying. and has only served to create my own personal list of guild names for guilds I wouldn't want to RP with or join.
If the problem were only that then I probably wouldn't have bothered to post.
The Church claims ownership to nothing. Our circle does however possess the right to view the IC layout of the cathedral as we desire.
I have absolutely no issues with The "Church of the Holy Light". In fact I can't say that I've even seen you in the Cathedral, but I'm very happy with your views on RP in such places, and I dearly wish that other guilds would adopt the same viewpoint.
I would still hold that RP'ing in an NPC trainer area is foolish however, for your own RP's sake... if you want total immersion then you'd surely rather be in an area where people won't be rushing in on on full run speed to catch up with training, then standing before an NPC exploding in a column of light.
The Cathedral is big enough, and there are area's where there are no NPC trainers standing around.
I can only think of one reason for an RP guild to make a habit of RP'ing in high traffic public area's... that's really only to make certain they are seen by the maximum number of people. Sadly they also tend to annoy the maximum number of people which is somewhat counter-productive.
I can't see a better place for 'The Church of the Holy Light' than being the Cathedral. After all, it is what they are based on. Occasially someone gets there OOCly for training but it is easy to spot if they are either OOC or IC. The catacombs are pretty empty but it makes no sense to have the infirmary there, it can be a matter of life and death. The sooner mended, the better and to reach the catacombs takes you a little while, not to mention I find it rather... gloomy.
PS. Kat, I still like you *offers cookies and hugs*
Right, no one's asked for it, but I'm going to voice my opinion on a few matters... (Warning, may be TL:DR scenario, but please stick with it.)
On the subject of: When can another player tell me how to roleplay?
Answer: Never, ot atleast, they shouldn't.
Explaination: All roleplay is sacred, and at this point on the server roleplay is becoming harder and harder to come by in large numbers. Yes, we still have roleplayers and core guilds that have been around for a long time, as well as some old roleplayers, but the influx of such things are becoming less and less by each passing week. Further more to this point, your character and the stories that stem from your character are your own unique creation, and no one likes their personal thoughts or their imagination being mocked, degraded and so on by bother players who feel for some reason a justification to point out the flaws of another persons roleplay. Anyone COULD point out these flaws, but they shouldn't. At the end of the day, someone is always going to disagree with your views on the matter, and likewise you aren't always going to agree with other peoples roleplay.
Some players might find the runes of anti-magic within a large area of the cells in the guard house, plus being bound up, removed of all items and just left there in solitude for days upon days upon days... a little bit too much, which can spark arguements about it being a bit too powerful and illogical on how that magic was sustained... HOWEVER...
On the flip side of the arguement, the guards may find those who've been thrown in there purposefully seeking to disrupt roleplay, and that feebled attempts at escape are just game breaking and shouldn't be in there, which can spark arguements about it being, once again, a bit too powerful of a character and illogical on how they would manage to break free...
Every side of roleplay has two counter balancing arguements, and it some peoples mind, this is more free and flexable than others. Should the guard tell you that you can't try and break free? No. Should you tell the guard that them locking you up is ridiculous? No. So what can you do?...
Theory: Live and let live. If you're stuck in a situation you think is wrong ICly then take a moment to discuss it OOCly with those involved, only if in doing so you work out your options. It's never fair for either side to totally dismiss something OOCly when they're trying to explain and work something out. In the scenario above, it wouldn't be fair for the guard to totally dismiss an escape attempt, and likewise it wouldn't be fair for you to totally dismiss suffering any punishment for the actions of your character. There needs to be a bit of give and take, and OOCly is the best way to sort this out, keep it polite, remember you are NOT your character, and you shouldn't be angry, so keep it PG and polite.
If that fails, and there really is no way of resolving it with a bit of an OOC chat to keep the record straight, then walk away from the situation, ignore eachother, and go about your business... BUT REMEMBER, a guards guild is only as useful as the criminals they interact with, and a criminals guild is only as useful as the guards they try and evade. Without either one of these, neither would work, so it's worth trying to work things out OOCly before you start throwing around ignores... this would go on both sides.
On the subject of: Lore... being used as the be all and end all final discussion...
Answer: Sorry, but unfortunately this is not the case.
Explaination: Lore is often used in many arguements to try and prove or disprove a certain point of view to come across from either point. And whilst granted and undeniable, lore in World of Warcraft comes from Blizzards own words, it cannot be taken in an in game context with accuracy to prove certain points.
On an old server I played a Troll Rogue who roleplayed as a Bar Tender in Silvermoon City. Lore would state, as many players told me, "There is no reason a Troll would be able to hang around Silvermoon City, due to the ammount of magic that spews out of the place that the Blood Elves hunger for." And whilst, granted, this is written as lore, allow me to break this down into core segments.
"There is no reason a Troll would..." There is every reason a Troll would. Being an agressive race who generally are considered in many peoples eyes to often be vindictive, backstabbing or vengeful, why wouldn't a Troll masquerade under the pretences of a Bar Tender, gathering intel against those they hate, and then striking at a few when no one is looking?
"... hang around Silvermoon City,..." You mean, other than the whole Horde emissaries who seem to enjoy nothing more than walking around and exploring the city? Yes, they might moan about it, but that doesn't mean they aren't there. And if you wish to go for the argument of "NPCs don't count", well unfortunately they were written into the game, just as lore was written into the game. Discredit one, discredit all.
"... magic that Blood Elves hunger for." Granted, this would be an annoyance and would generally make them more irritable, however if you lived in London after living in Dorset, you wouldn't want to move out after a couple of weeks because of the smell and the general population you don't seem to agree with. Since this is the case, why would it matter in character?
I'm using this example of lore purely to demonstrate how, even the great minds of Blizzard can be flawed, and whilst stated about Lore can be true, it cannot be taken as a word for word bible, only as a context to be thought upon and a set of guidelines to aid a player in the roughly right direction.
Does this mean lore is bad? Definately not. Lore can be very handy at taking a player by the hand and showing them the paths to walk upon. However it is restricting if you follow it down to the letter, and it is more often than not, better to let things slide, rather than flame and cause erruption due to a lack of lore influence from one or the other. So what can you do?
Theory: For the ones who do follow the lore, learn that some people just don't follow the lore the same ammounts as you do, and that, whilst you may not agree with it, is how they perceive the current climate and situations for their character. Give up that little bit of pride you have for the system and let them be.
For the ones who don't follow the lore down to the letter, keep on at it, but remember do try and further your knowledge of Lore, as this can heavily help you out with the "little things" of your character.
If you can't let go of your prides and opinions then ignore and move on. But remember, we were all "newbies" at once in our life, and wouldn't you have had a chance or two more rather than auto ignored for something you did or didn't do? Communicate OOCly and be polite.
On the subject of: How can anyone own any building ICly?
Answer: Not really... however...
Explaination: You can't actually own any building within any part of World of Warcraft, unless you personally pay Blizzard a major ammount of money to have one, small designated building to yourself, and get them to put your characters name on a post outside. But there is, of course, a limit to this...
Generally a rule comes into play of: "If it makes sense..." SI:7 and Command Center, for example, are official buildings that are very commonly associated with high command and protection. Ergo, it would make sense for a guards guild to be there. Cut Throat Alley is a more shady zone, so it would make sense for a bandit guild to be there. The Cathedral is a holy communial place, so it would make sense for holy guilds to be there. I don't think, personally, anyone would like to see Death Knights owning the Cathedral, Bandits and Theives in the Command Center and SI:7, and Paladins and Justice Bringers in Cut Throat Alley.
Sometimes, however, other buildings don't fall under these guidelines, so what should come into play is a very mature: "Whoever was there first" policy. Lets say I roleplay my house being in a free building in Old Town. I go home IC and I see a meeting of Warlocks inside discussing politics. They were there first, my character would've gone into my home and done her stuff, so she'll use another building or just ICly fluff: "Eh, let's come back later actually." And likewise on the flip side the same could happen. It doesn't interupt, it doesn't harm anyone, and we just get on with things. I've done this on several occasions and it's caused no problems. A bit of maturity on the subject goes a long way.
To finish off...
So there we go, theres a few ideas just to make things a bit better in my honest opinion.
80 Human Warlock
To clarify on the church's side of things, our view of the Cathedral involves a "Private Section" for the clergy as well as the people who volunteer at the Cathedral. This means below the floor of the Cathedral of Light - the room with the scarlet is used as a kitchen and the crypts below are used as bedrooms.
People who do not agree with these views and roleplay in the crypts as crypts, or roleplays with Brother Crowley are assumed to not be in the particular Cathedral of Light we are when we RP in there.
Moreso, the private section of the Cathedral is off limits from the public in roleplay and people are asked and sometimes escorted out of there - for what would they have to do in the kitchen and bedrooms?
Zack: "A player has threatened with having us reported for adding an imaginary kitchen and bedrooms to the Cathedral. The kitchen is in the hall with the scarlet, the bedrooms instead of crypts. Let me explain the issue..."
Zack: "As it stands, since we use them as bedrooms, we have protectors employed in-characterly to keep people out of them, meaning if someone goes down there, we in-characterly take action to have them leave. Why would they be in our bedrooms after all?"
Zack: "Does this make a problem however?"
Ethrannis: "Not really."
Ethrannis: "There's no way we'd take action on that report. I wouldn't worry about it."
Hope we see eachother on friendly terms!
The world is big enough for everyone to find a spot in to play. I don't understand why you just can't accept that the Church actually uses the Cathedral. I dare say you wouldn't have gone to the Cathedral in the first place if it wasn't for the church. Let's face it, they pretty much attracted people to the Cathedral square. Before that it was people attracted to the park due to the Slaughtered Noble and even years before that it was old town due to the guards.
I don't find zones that have npcs in used for RP as a bad thing, it helps put the image across of somewhere being busy or full and besides, if you cant click on the npc you want just press CTRL - V for clickable health bars. :)
However, I do find it restricting when people lock you up for ages but these problems are usually solved on both sides easily, a OOC whisper saying you want to leave without breaking out or destroying things can usually be done and both sides will see the person leaving the prison as having served there time or just forgot about, the good thing about fiction is you can alter things whenever, just like blizzard does and if people do not like they can ignore like you say, if one person acts immature about the situation just remember that they do not represent the whole guild.
Personnally i dislike the whole rping in different realms thing since it ruins rp in my eyes since you have to oocly ignore the people, compromising is the way forward, if someone has the place you want to RP then either find a new area or just contact the people who are in the area and discuss some reason for you being there or them being there to put IC, i would stay away from this since it would take some time so i would just find a new zone instead.
Ignoring people being there is difficult, this is why many do not RP in trade district or at orgrimmar centre area, implementing a hide player option would be great, flag as RP and you can't see OOCers and they can't see you could work effectively if not abused, a option to ignore particular characters would also be welcome since you could do this, rp in the area, turn off the ignore for them and then leave, no conflicts would be made.
Edited by Ellessar on 06/06/11 13:14 (BST)
The sites all posted there are but a fraction of the total written material and nowhere.. absolutely NOWHERE in the terms and conditions or even the policies does Blizzard refer to this Lore. It isn't even hinted that it should be refered to! Not even a smidgen of a suggestion that it should even be read! Check the official policy again if you like! http://eu.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_GB&articleId=50077&parentCategoryId&pageNumber=1&categoryId=9764
Here this comes from those policies.
If you find another player acting in a manner that contradicts the spirit of the guidelines detailed below, you must first verbally request the offending player to discontinue his/her behavior. If the actions continue after this request, only then should a Game Master (GM) be contacted. Remember to be respectful of others' Story Lines for we must all work together to keep the continuity of the Base Story Line. Good luck and safe journeys!
Important thig to note there is the 'in the spirit of' That can have alot of meanings in legal cases. And in this it is normal to assume they mean to include the Blizz's set lore.
As to the church using the Cathedral and claiming ownership? I'm sorry but when players start to tell other players to leave... they are in danger of breeching the terms and conditions of the game, and they certainly should not be occupying an area in such numbers so as to make it difficult for other players to manouvre or to make it difficult for them to interact with the NPC trainers in there.
If you are only there for training you are there for ooc reasons and no harm done.
As for the "majority" being the case here? Have you checked the ratio of people using FlagRSP or MyRolePlay lately? And since when is the majority of people in Stormwind or Ironforge RP'ing? RP'ers are definately the minority on this server and as I've stated before... trumped up rules and regulations issued by people who prefer to run around issuing commands rather than play the game or use their imagination is what puts most people off RP on this server.
We never claimed to be anything but a minority. As it is on any Rp-realm to be fair. So that is a stupid argument.
If a guild wants to play by a strict set of rules and hold fast to any set of written material, that's fine, let them... but don't go pushing your rules and regulations on the rest of the players and guilds, thank you.
No. I call serious bullsh*t on this. We donot write the lore. It is the property of blizzard, not you. It is your job, if you want to rp, to mkae sure your charchter fits within Blizzards property. There is lore written in books that has been sanctioned by Blizz. And there are books that have not been given blizz's blessings. Those latter are therefore not official lore.
We are not being unimaginitive by following lore. Heck it might even take more effort to follow lore, then just go "lol f*cks lore I'ma gonna do this anyway because it's fun to me."
Heck if I could do that. All my chars would be invincible wargods or some other such crappy idea. If you ask me though. That is being truly unimaginitive, as anyone with half a brain can make that story up.
Edited by Akarne on 07/06/11 12:07 (BST)
Ell, you know this humbled child of an Elf loves you... but here's the bad news: I'm going to voice my opinion. =3.
Lore is good, lore gives a clear cut definition and an understanding to a character, race, group, faction and so on, as well as detailed and documented history on the previous goings of Azeroth. It can answer those pesky little questions we all seem to have about a character and can aid with filling out the specifics. For example: Are Night Elves Immortal? - No, they lost it due to the World Tree incident but are trying to regain it.
All in all good so far, right?
But there are always going to be variant shades of grey that cross the lines on this subject where, realistically, there is no clear cut definitive answer. I was speaking to a very good friend of mine ICly, who I get along very well with OOCly about certain things, and of course, lore cropped up. The conversation went back and forth between us, both simply expressing points and opinions. An example of this was: "Quests are stated by Blizzard as being applicable to lore." "If that is the case, lore must state not all Murlocs have Eyes, Boars have Intestines and Lions have Paws."
To be very honest with you, and take a step back for one moment, it's a game. There are always going to be disagreements and such, but to be fair, the game is limited to the ammount of stuff that we can RP about or with. Not extremely so mind you, but limited none the less. And sometimes, lore and the game clash.
I was speaking to said friend who was riding upon a specific kind of Drake (I can't remember which one, but it wasn't a common one). When asked by a guild member if she was IC, she replied yes, and thus debates spewed out. "Blah blah blah, Dragon lore, blah blah, Drake lore, blah blah blah." Without going into detail the whole arguement was based over her riding a Drake in character.
So we did a bit of research on this, trying to find out the answer. Would it be lorefully correct for a player to be able to ride a Drake? It's a simply question, plus, it's included in the game mechanics so we should find the answer relitively easily right?... Right?... *worried look*.
No. Unfortunately it was impossible to find a conclusive and decisive answer from Blizzard Official Lore or even UNOFFICIAL lore. All had points and opinions, but the only point we could pull out that was synonymous was that: "It would be hard to do it." that was it. And even that as it is, still, isn't a clear cut definitive guileline on the issue. It's hard, so, it would be tough to do but doable? So... how many others ride a drake, lore wise and player wise? Would it be right to assume one can? What about ten? Twenty? Fifty? A hundred?
The point I'm trying to get across here is that, whilst lore is amazingly helpful, It's no where near cracked up enough to be the definitive guide it needs to be. If this were a story, like LotR or Star Wars or something along those lines, it would be a lot clearer. However this is not a story that has been based as one, then made into a game. It's a game that has a story that goes along to it. Two very different things.
Now... granted. I do defend the point of Lore in a manner of speaking, to some extent. I believe you should know enough about your characters race, class and so on to be able to have an idea of how to roleplay it (For example, the later admitions of Female Druids and Male Priests umungst the Night Elf Society), but I believe there is a limit and an end to all things.
Take a step back, read the lore carefully, then look at the game and try to connect the dots. It's unfortunately like a broken jigsaw. You get the corners and the borders all fine, but for some reason, some jigsaw pieces fit but aren't even of the right puzzle, others a missing completely, and others have just been so badly damaged they can't be put back into the puzzle to begin with.
All I'm saying is, in all fairness, live and let live. You want to RP someone abiding totally by the lore, 100% pure Night Elf, Male, Hunter gatherer seeing as they can't be Sentinels, heck go for it. You want to RP a Half Fallen Paladin as a Dwarf with a Human accent who can speak Darnassian... go for it. Neither of which actually directly affect you as a person in real life, and can be easily ignored if you do get offended by such matters? I don't follow lore personally, I take it as a guideline, and not only do I have fun, I don't believe my RP is too dire. So live and let live? Please?
Plus... no one likes to be told their wrong, even if they are. Educate them nicely, or leave them to it. Remember to be polite people! Blizzard demands it! =3.
Nobody likes to be told they are wrong? Sure it ain't nice. But it is how we grow. And I admit I am rather blunt in this sorta thing.
But when somebody is wrong I will try to call them out. It is how we grow. I also expect people to do the same to me. Come with valid points, and correct me. I donot mind 9/10 times. Unless I am busy ofcourse.
But approach me in whisper and ask why I did something in a certain way. And don't just say. You are wrong and then shrug and leave. If you come with valid points I will consider them, and then either improve or choose to ignore them, for whatever reasons. (In other words, how the world works in my line of work, so I might have more practivce then some others)
And as I said. I might be blunt, but that is how I try to get points across to people who seem not to want to accept the point. But what is also very important to note is that, when I attack someones words/actions/etc, I attack that. Not the person behind it. Same as when you write a paper and your boss/teacher/colleagues, say your assumptions are wrong. They are calling the assumptions stupid maybe, but that doesnot mean they are calling YOU stupid. Those are completely different things.
And while I donot hold the right to tell anyone how they are to roleplay their chars. I can point at the flaws in it.
For instance. NE's in the SW Guard guild. From a lore point of view I just see so much that is wrong with that.
But that is not saying they are bad rp'ers or anything. That is just my take on lore.
p.s. I won't go into your example with the dragon as it is Off Topic. But I will say this. "No."
We're in The Alliance... why wouldn't the Elves have offered some small number of troops to aid their allies? Especially if they might not have been Sentinel material or filled no other "role within society"?
85 Goblin Shaman
A night elf being the guard commander is a bit too much though, right? Lol
I think it reflects very well on the Stormwind governors for being advocates of equal opportunity. o.o
Because their own lands of Ashenvale (which many of them consider sacred) are in far more direct danger then SW is?
There are only about a 100,000 NE's left. And while probably about 60,000 if not more, can act as warriors. They simply donot have the numbers toi fight the wars that have been raging all over Azeroth and outlands AND fight the Horde at the same time.
And besides that lets face it, Ne's are rather rascist as a whole, towrds other lesser races. They should listen to us and should help us, it's why we joined this alliance yaditadiyada...
But that's all besides the point. I was just giving a well known and clear example.
p.s. again. Not attcking the ones who play those NE's in the guard. I am sure you are all fine rp'ers and people. Just donot expect Ellessar to respect your chars :P
I see why that is a valid IC opinion - which is also how I understood you last post Ellesar.
However, I believe that every player have a right to decide how their own characters personality and allegiances lies. While crowning oneself the King of Ashenvale would by most be percieved as a tad much free interpretation of the lore, and while there can only be so many Grand Heroes of the alliance, I do think we have to be careful to OOC'ly dictate how other people can and cannot play out their characters.
A character such as Doctor Dead/Barlowe is a good example of an Night Elf character who clearly have abandoned all or most ties to his former homeland and people. I dont see anything wrong with that.
I think we should all try and be less restrictive about the little things, as long as it doesnt cause huge lorelolz, and allow people to play - and if needed and they are willing to - explain (not justify) why their characters does what they do, be it serve the scourge, the legion, steal pies or work as a commander in the Stormwind City Guard.
I think it's funny that people complain about him being a Night Elf, rather than his criminal past. (http://ering-eu.wikispaces.com/Telka+Blake)
There's one side that an Elf really likes his home and his lands, and wants to protect it. There could also be a side where there's an Elf who really wishes to be human, and joins the guards for instance.
Probably a one in a million character, but they would exist.
Sort of off-topic, but checking Ellessar's claim of 100.000 NE's, I looked around and saw that there are only 20,400 elves in Teldrassil (source: wowwiki) and 4.000 NE's living in Stormwind City. That's quite a large percentage that's moved to Stormwind City.
Though there's an alarming low number of Night Elves around, if there's only that much around. There are 140.000 humans in Stormwind alone.
I think we need to put them on an endangered species list soon, and start a breeding program if this keeps up.
I, Odán Jackson I would certainly offer my assistance in this matter - unendangering the elves I mean. Of course, it may not have the desired effect.
It does in fact seem the Night Elves have a profound interest in human culture. As for the debate about how numerous these elves are, keep in mind that there may be solid reasoning behind the very low population of Elves in Teldrassil. The more people living in the same spot, the worse is the strain on nature in the area. Hunting, foraging, building materials and so forth. I imagine the treehugging elves would in fact prefer to spread out a lot, atleast in the past, to avoid disturbing the natural balance.
But, we are going off topic. Unless we want to begin discussing interracial relationships.