Topic Hunters - Tournament Viable? Fix us.
Thanks, that would be great :)
Edited by Tarishian on 25/05/11 22:46 (BST)
Finally a hunter who knows what they're talking about.
Just make the buff occur when you land after the disengage as opposed to straight away. Perhaps even make all snares nullified while pothaste is active but they resume afterwards if still active.
Readiness should give us full focus when used. Either that or give 2 min cd again.
I also have some ideas about hunter fixes:
Edited by Thrandiel on 25/05/11 22:56 (BST)
3 fixes that would instantly make life easier without making us OP:
- Deterrence wipes dots
- Cobra shot and focus shot merged into 1, so we do acceptable damage vs plate while regaining focus.
Another change that could be good is making it instant cast with 1.5 second cooldown, so it's basically the same in terms of damage, you just won't get to near full cast and they juke behind pillar and you get no damage or focus. These changes solve the problem of steady shot being a; weak and b; too long to cast, and allows for the removal of aspect of the fox so we can have AoTH up all the time.
- Get rid of freezing trap, replace it with freezing arrow, 1.5 second cast(debatable) same effect as freezing trap, same cd, 30-40 yard range.
Edited by Davzner on 25/05/11 23:49 (BST)
I'll start with saying i don't think hunter as a class is ok as it is now, but i see a problem in other classes being OP and not in hunter being UP.
What we have in 4.1 is few classes with a lot of PvP tools doing huge dmg (do to buffs they received in 4.1) and because of that they are OP atm.
- 95%+ unavoidable cc
- 5 sec stuns being available to a lot of classes
- 7sec lockouts or 4sec silence if you "fail"
- full burst while cc-ing the same target aka cc not breaking on dmg
As i see it more cc should be like trap (without resist bug :)) where you actually have a chance to avoid it or get a help from your team to stop being cc-ed. For example there is almost nothing you can do against grip -> HC from dk or deep freeze -> RoF from mage.
Those 5 sec stuns on 45 sec cd are what gives a chance to get a hard pressure on healer (in a switch or just by pressuring him), one of the main reasons we can't do much to a healer. If you simply buff our dmg to compensate for the lack of stun/interupt we will be extremly OP. If you have stuns/interupts/silencing/control you shouldn't be able to do massive dmg - dk is what you get when you combine those 2.
Fail prof silencing/lockout is what needs to be gone, if you got "juked" by caster you shouldn't get any "reward" for it, simple as that. People would be more careful and game would be more interesting.
Those Fears need to break on less direct dmg, i understand that warlock is all about dots and fears but not being able to do anything while getting killed is not fun or interesting.
Not allowing classes to simply do to much dmg goes without saying, warriors in 4.0.6, dk-s in 4.1.
I would add rogue/mage there since i've seen some crazy **%! from those classes but it could be because they have to many tools for PvP.
Since trap resist bug fix is coming all i would like to see is something that would help us against extensive pilar humping/fight reseting, for example 1-2min cd which gives us ability to fire on 0yards, or gives our mele ability some huge dmg bonus.
And yea, some classes need to be scaled back a bit since if Blizz continues to push dmg up all the time we will get season 8 again, we are close to it as it is now.
p.s. this post is 5 times more mature that the one on AJ, at least for now.
85 Undead Hunter
Edited by Sheevå on 26/05/11 12:37 (BST)
We can live with just a couple of this fix, but I appreciate the idea of some sort of brainstorming from Braindeadly (:D).
In my opinion, the main problems of the hunter class are:
- poor focus regen (on a pvp environment)/lack of pressure
- too much damage on cloth, too bad on plate
- dots training us to oblivion
(- reliability of scatter trap, but the 4.2 fixes are a step in the good direction)
A couple of things will help in that way:
- merge cobra and steady, and make the cast time slightly faster (in any sort of way, even the wotlk-style 15% quiver-like haste to bring it to 1.7s cast), as almost anybody here says.
- Arpen effect (like colossus smash or find weakness), maybe just on aimed shot or something similar [maybe some damage nerf on aimed if arp is applied on it]
- Deterrence with some sort of protection from dot; maybe clearing all dot will be too op, but just make thick for "0 damage" while in det.
- Healing Reduction (Widow Venom) effect within our rotation (like any other class has): a 10s duration - 15 focus - 10% ms effect is useless in pvp. Merging Aimed (Black Arrow for survi) with Widow Venom will be fine too .
On a sidenotes, I will really appreciate to have a 85 ability with some sort of utility pvp-wise.
As someone said, a Camo (with increased CD) usable in combat that won't break on dots will be really good, but maybe i'm exaggeratin' here, or just make it usable after Feign Death (now you can't because of pet's 5s combat rule). Maybe a glyph of Camouflage?
Definitely, Camo needs some love.
Again, i don't think ALL of this stuff should be implemented (except for the steady/cobra merge), we can live with just a couple of this changes, and see how it goes. As someone wisely said on AJ, we don't need new mechanichs, just some sort of adjustment to the actual ones.
Doubt there'll be anyone from Blizzard absorbing suggestions regarding Hunters like ever, despite how liable they may seem.
Atleast playing the Hunterclass for this long has granted me a with vast pool of patience, along with possible future tumors.
Edited by Soandri on 26/05/11 09:31 (BST)
Nice, a discussion!
I'll join in with a few suggestions:
Resistance is Futile
This talent is rather lackluster, and feels somewhat out of place in the marksman tree. I am not sure how useful it is in a PvE situation, but the fact that it does not make the next Kill Command free of cost but simply a refund limits its use greatly. I propose two alternate changes:
1) Change it to make the next Kill Command free of cost (or very cheap, such as 10 focus).
This would help us in situations where we are low on focus and/or unable to use ranged attacks
Would be a fairly small change wich does not impact PvE in any great degree.
2) Change it to make every basic attack used by the pet on a slowed (perhaps only dazed) target restore a small amount of focus for the hunter.
Would help with our focus regeneration, and increase the importance of good pet control.
Will not affect PvE focus regeneration much.
Could simply tie too much focus regeneration to the pet, and make its death too debilitating.
On paper it sounds like a very nice talent (I assume it still is in PvE), but its RNG element greatly limits its usefulness in PvP.
I suggest that the procrate is increased to 100%, but an internal cooldown be put on the effect. "Can only occur once every 15/20/30 seconds" or the like.
Eliminates the randomness of the talent, thus allowing the player to predict and plan when she can fire off a free Aimed Shot.
If done correctly (i.e. with an appropriate cooldown) it will neither raise nor lower hunter DPS in PvE.
Can be hard to keep track of by the player. A debuff only visible to the hunter herself showing the cooldown remaining could be a workaround to this.
(EDIT: I do like the haste per proc suggestion more than this however, it seems much more interesting overall. It will give you an additional choice we don't have at the moment (i.e. casting an Aimed Shot at only a couple of stacks).
I would very much like to get rid of the RNG of it though, I can't count how many times I've lost the final proc because of the short duration and its unpredictability.)
Glyph of Freezing Trap
The added slow when the trap breaks does not really pay for itself as a major glyph; we already have enough slows without it. What we need is more trap reliability. Making the glyph let our trasp remove all damage over time effects from the target would be much more useful. It was a good addition for other classes' cc, and it would be a good addition for us (especially when we cannot always control who triggers our traps).
More CC reliabilty.
Close to nill PvE impact.
Possibly not useful enough in arena to compete with the other glyphs.
Steady Shot - Remove it from the game, apply cobra shot to the master marksmanship and improved steady shot talents and reduce the cast time by possible 0.5 second via maybe a talent, or the Hunter PVP 4-set bonus (face it our 4-set bonus is dog-awful, it gives us a whopping 0.3 extra focus regen per second) Best of all that change won't affect PVE AT ALL. This will fix our extremly poor damage versus any plate class (especially warriors and dks) when I face them in arena my main tactic is to pray that they are bad. It basically normalizes our damage.
I do think Blizzard is very cautious about removing spells (or at least claim to be). If you just added Cobra Shot to Master Marksman and Improved Steady Shot, would there even be a need to remove the ability? Anywho, I imagine it would be nice to have a (real) choice between the two.
Camouflage do has its place, it can be of tactical use in BGs and World PvP. -HOWEVER-, In arena I assume its use to be rather limited, and in my eyes it is more of a "fun and giggle" utility ability than anything else, akin to Aquatic Form or Slow Fall.
If they already are going to more or less make a new ability out of it as you suggest, why not keep the current one and piece something completely new together? I'd rather have something powerful AND a lulz ability (although the former supersedes the latter, of course).
Why periodically though? The suggestion is to make it into a form of panic-button if I understand you correctly, so wouldn't this be more unneeded RNG? Wouldn't an instant "slip into the shrubbery" ability be better than one that is likely to be penalized because its potential to be a long term survivability tool, and a possibly unreliable one at that?
Or is it just the "fade into the surroundings" effect that would be periodical?
Edited by Iradan on 26/05/11 10:36 (BST)
At this moment .. as in every other moment of Wow pvp playing a hunter is depressing, at least it is for me and i'm not playing it that often, but what im trying to say is that it must be extremely more depressing for top pvp players like Braindeadly that are not able to join, and they are not even able to dream about wining a tournament.
And why is that ?? Only because they chose to master the wrong class ??
Come on blizzard .. you owe us some fixes.. and i happen to propose the following
- Trap Launcher : 30 sec CD - Makes your next Freezing and Immolate trap targetable. Remove Snake Frost and Explosive trap from it to compensate. Lots of hunter will not agree with this .. cause they think trapping at this moment takes lots of skill or they just like aiming traps like headshots in Call of Duty, but sorry guys this just needs to be dumbed down so u can see yourself playing tournaments.
- Pet Ress : 4 sec casting time .. Just because it should be .. 10 sec is utter bull#!@% compare to other pet classes...
- I suggest various changes to Rapid fire make it give hast equal to 40% range attack speed ( 50% with glyph) Why ?? So we can use it to ress pets and fear beasts... wont be that big of a deal and it will help us a lot we can chose to use it for dmg or cc or w/e a creative mind comes up with.
- Rapid Fire should also be 2min CD( with RR ) unless you wanna add 50% crit chance to it.
- Rapid recuperation : Add " Whenever the hunter is attacked by enemies that that are in his death zone .. attacks made against him reduce the CD of Rapid Fire by (5/10) seconds so ppl will know that there is a downside to training a hunter with his pet dead or not.
- Pet spells like web and monkey stun and others with a lower CD so we can have a thing called peeling .. ( in fact i'd put all pet abilities to 30 sec CD )
- Remove cast time on Dismiss pet so we can actually switch pets in arena.
Scatter with 20 sec CD .. cause hunters NEED MORE PEELS.
- Camouflage: Make it a lot like mage invis .. 2-3 sec of fade or cast time then we are gone and while camouflage the hunter regenerates 40% of his health leasts 10-15 second. So we wont be the only class with no self heal and so it wont be that easy to pull of..
- And also make master marksman 100% and put Cobra shot in it, like Braindeadly said, because it's pretty stupid and RNG the way it is now.
Thats about it .. Thx for reading.
P.S. Nothing here affects Pve .. if you think it does .. go crazy and tell me.
1 Troll Hunter
I'll assume you're referring to OPs suggested changed
Retribution paladins would still do more damage as they can at best have over 50% damage increases, basically all their damage is holy (which ignores armor), they have a long stun on relatively low cooldown, they have instant CC which acts quite much the same as trap except it doesn't break on paladin dots (repentance- breaks on damage but not (paladin) dots, traps- break on damage and dots), they have selfheals, they have bubble, et cetera.
Comments like this are made by the clueless. Just saying.
Besides, Paladin Wings are undispelable after 4.2, what more do you really want? Retri damage is already high and their only major complaint is that wings can be removed. If you're basing your lack of damage as retri on your blue retri junk, then I'm not amazed by your opinion.
I would consider myself a strong hunter (just not on this alt) I played survival alot in wrath. I prefer surv to mm for a number of reasons, exy shot v plate classes and the uilty of wyvern sting if played right are just two. That said I rerolled (ya shoot me) I now play a prot paladin. Badly. I play it almost as ranged, in fact I had a kite game with a frost mage yesterday that I won. Yes prot paladin v frost mage. Must stop playing baddies. Anyway, my point here is even as a decent hunter playing my heart out on a geared hunter, I cant do what I can do on a paladin with no gap closers. Give me a warrior and I will beat 99% of the hunters out there.
I know I am not the only other rerolled hunter out there: met a dk 2 days ago in arathi basin, who used his chains of ice and death thingymes to range attack me and kite me. He was even jump shotting for the love of it. Took him 2 minutes to kill me. I was laughing while I died, took me back to the good old days, before focus...
I cant see hunters changing until they change the fact our entire dps is depentant on our cobra/steady cast finishing. They make melee contact with you, they break los, they blink behind you, its canceled. With it being our only means of dps, its so terribly hard to do anything, yes ok in a bg situation you pop cds to get away, but sometimes if its 2/3 on one you cant. Sometimes in arena you cant. Sometimes the situation wont allow it. Heck even a warlock can cast while the dk smacks him in the face. He might die very fast if he tries, but he still has the option.
Whats wrong with bring back "raptor strike" does 70% weapon damage restores 9 focus on gcd. At least that way if we get clear we have SOMETHING to work with. Might not help the op and high lev hunters, but would help the lower skill ones.
while hunters have to do like 100 actions in little time to even survive(dmg isnt even in the option menu) other classes are easy to play even a new player knows how to own.
I realy think hunter's alot of fixes but mainly i was wondering with the minimum range on our abilities....wudent be bad if it was removed and some abilitys twinked/revamped.