World of Warcraft®

I know this topic had been advocated a lot, but i still feel like sharing this thought:

Last year one guy started to lead 25-man PUG in ICC on sunday afternoon. It was so cool! The organization was always "pro" but fun at the same time, maybe half the team was new and half was going like me every weeks for 2-3 months. I even became friend with this raid leader and meet IRL to share drinks despite the fact that we live in 2 different countries ^^


Meet new people and have fun together: what MMORPG should be.


Ok so a few days ago, this exact same guy was thinking of doing 25-man PUG again in BoT/BwD this time: Awesome ! But wait ... mmh... How am i supposed to join if i already raid with my guild in 10-man ?

Ah yes: i can't.

Thanks Blizzard :/

ever heard of alts? its a nice solution

I know but it's a solution to a problem that shouldn't be here:

_ Blizzard decided to use the same lock for 10 & 25 because "players were forced to raid both to have more loot/emblem".

_ So now i raid 10-man on my main AND 25-man on my alt ? I'm still "forced to raid both" except i don't have the choice to bring who i like anymore... excuse me but that's some weird logic we've got there ^^

i get your point but some people don't have time to raid that much and just want a main character. and i guess for those people its nice that they don't run behind if they only have time to do 10 or 25m.

Hurray I get so happy whenever I get reminded that the seperate lockouts are no longer!
No longer are you forced to pug 25 mans *shudders*, (which on my low pop server is a horrible experience, 1-2 hours of waiting to gather a bad group even more for a good one) to be able to progress in 10 man.

No longer do you overgear most of it after a couple of weeks, not due to having farmed it, but due to doing an easy 25 man tier that gives superior loot.

No more "10 man is soooo easy Lal", because people that actually farm 25 man have 20 % more dps/hps and better and as a result are able to faceroll it.

08/06/2011 18:24Posted by Toris

No longer do you overgear most of it after a couple of weeks, not due to having farmed it, but due to doing an easy 25 man tier that gives superior loot.

In your case, not even after 7 months you are able to overgear it. Shared lockouts gtg.

Quite honestly, the fact that 10 man and 25 man now share loot and lockout is one of the best changes they made. The WotLK model wasn't healthy, and put a lot of strain on people that didn't wish to raid a lot.

If you do wish to raid more than you are already, pick up your alts and spend your offnights raiding with them.

I know but it's a solution to a problem that shouldn't be here:

_ Blizzard decided to use the same lock for 10 & 25 because "players were forced to raid both to have more loot/emblem".

_ So now i raid 10-man on my main AND 25-man on my alt ? I'm still "forced to raid both" except i don't have the choice to bring who i like anymore... excuse me but that's some weird logic we've got there ^^

No it's not.

If you actually wish to raid a second time during one reset, you cannot claim to be "forced to do so". The only thing you are forced to, is using a secondary character for it, as your main is already maxed out.

For a person that can only raid say 1-3 times a week, this change means he/she will still be able to max out his/her main character without feeling bad for only giving it a 50% effort.

If you think this is bad design, I'd like to hear from you again when you have slown down how much you play. Unless you quit before it obviously. Trust me, I get your frustration. During vanilla I wanted to raid up to 7 days a week, TBC 4-5 and WotLK 3. After Cataclysm I have gone down to 1-2, but I used to be frustrated that I could not raid as much as I wanted to(due to lack of access to instances or like-minded players). I know how it feels but really, it's in no way a healthy design. Pick up your alts instead.

Youre no more forced to raid alts than you are to raid 10/25 in the same week. The difference now is that you have to level, gear, and raid on your alt at a caliber you probably wouldnt have brought it to in Wrath.
This is not a debate about what's "easier" etc, merely that blizz forced the imposition so that inital gearing was more evenly paced, and more accurately, SLOWER. Consolidating the lockout is the only way for them to do this, since any 25m guild can organize 10s to increase both gear drop and Valor-acquisition in fresh content.

I liked the old system because it afforded me a choice. Blizz took that away, and i grumbled about it for a while. They also dealt a SERIOUS blow to 25m raiding because of mouthbreathers like the pally above, who gloat about the change on some absurd premise that anyone really cares about purples. You raid to beat bosses and have fun with your group. Its not surprising that most of the people who ADORE this change are basically the ones you dont want in your groups anyway. Eh. Its the way she goes.

Being able to run both gave 25-man guilds a huge advantage over 10-man guilds in terms of gearing and progress, which is what Blizz were trying to balance out for Cata (they got that bit right in my opinion even if they did #!@!@!!@ up on the bring the player not the class for 10-man raiding).

but severely lack of flexibility

you raid on wednesday, down (or even try for that matter) at least one boss in 25 heroic, you are locked for the week.

if a day in the week you have some attendance problem, you can cancel your evening, impossible to switch to 10 heroics or even start a new tag 10 heroics.

and that situation will even worsen with the 4.2 and an unique 7-boss raid instance.

09/06/2011 10:15Posted by Taxxes

Its not surprising that most of the people who ADORE this change are basically the ones you dont want in your groups anyway. Eh. Its the way she goes.

i like this system... it means that you can do 10 man and still be at the same lvl as 25m guilds. if they don't share lockout you will see 25m doing 10m but the other way around is hard since you lack people. and i can only say that its much more fun to play with a small roster of 12-13 people who know eachother,have fun and are at the same skill lvl, then with a 25m guild where there always will be more age difference different kind of humor different priorities and very important different skill lvls. we raid 3 days a week where everyone shows up and then we have 1-2 alt raids with 50% guild people its way better then the wotlk way where you did need to run 25m to have the real end game xp 10m was just a joke.

To be honest, since the gear and bosses within 10 and 25 man are now the same, I see no real reason to stop people from doing both on the same lock - the maximum amount of valor points available to an individual within a given week is capped and cannot be modified so there would be no real harm with reverting this back to two individual locks that I can see...

09/06/2011 10:15Posted by Taxxes

Its not surprising that most of the people who ADORE this change are basically the ones you dont want in your groups anyway.

Oh yes, that's exactly how black and white it is.

The system favoured people that played a lot but it punished good, but casual players, in progression guilds.

You don't have to play a lot to be good at what you do, and anyone in a serious guild would want their character maxed out every reset. Obviously it is not a requirement in all guilds with decent progression, but for many it is. I was lucky mine didn't enforce that on anyone, 'cause I had to exclude 10 mans, and I barely did the weekly or daily heroics. It simply would have eaten up all my time IRL.

That is another great change btw, the one they did to the daily heroics.

Besides, after having tried being a 10 man raider this expansion, I got to say I prefer it a lot over 25 man. Sure, I had fun as a 25 man raider(and also a 40 man raider), but there is something about 10 mans that makes the group feel so much more tied together. Cataclysm offers a choice there, something WotLK did not. Very few would raid 10 man seriously because of it's design as less "worth" than 25 man.

Now, I wouldn't personally care anymore if you didn't get saved to both, aslong as they still shared difficulty and loot, but that's still a very unhealthy and punishing design.

09/06/2011 12:55Posted by Dreyauc

To be honest, since the gear and bosses within 10 and 25 man are now the same, I see no real reason to stop people from doing both on the same lock - the maximum amount of valor points available to an individual within a given week is capped and cannot be modified so there would be no real harm with reverting this back to two individual locks that I can see...

That's actually a fair point.

09/06/2011 12:55Posted by Dreyauc

To be honest, since the gear and bosses within 10 and 25 man are now the same, I see no real reason to stop people from doing both on the same lock - the maximum amount of valor points available to an individual within a given week is capped and cannot be modified so there would be no real harm with reverting this back to two individual locks that I can see...

there is the thing that 25m guilds gear up easyer allready. if they can do 25-10 and have even more drops you will notice that 25m is in a huge advantage again and it will make 10m less interesting since you gear up very slow compared to 25m guilds who have people for both raids.

09/06/2011 13:14Posted by Triball

To be honest, since the gear and bosses within 10 and 25 man are now the same, I see no real reason to stop people from doing both on the same lock - the maximum amount of valor points available to an individual within a given week is capped and cannot be modified so there would be no real harm with reverting this back to two individual locks that I can see...

there is the thing that 25m guilds gear up easyer allready. if they can do 25-10 and have even more drops you will notice that 25m is in a huge advantage again and it will make 10m less interesting since you gear up very slow compared to 25m guilds who have people for both raids.

Not if they block out the loot, like the valor points are capped. As in, you'll only be eligible for loot the first time you kill a boss that reset.

After all, the problem is that people can't raid enough, is it not?

To be honest, since the gear and bosses within 10 and 25 man are now the same, I see no real reason to stop people from doing both on the same lock - the maximum amount of valor points available to an individual within a given week is capped and cannot be modified so there would be no real harm with reverting this back to two individual locks that I can see...

there is the thing that 25m guilds gear up easyer allready. if they can do 25-10 and have even more drops you will notice that 25m is in a huge advantage again and it will make 10m less interesting since you gear up very slow compared to 25m guilds who have people for both raids.

The flip side to this is, sure, 10 man groups will !@*%! and whine but the option has not been taken away from them to run both 10 and pug 25 in the same week.

For the groups that run 10 and 25 in the same week, that is their prerogative, who cares if they want to spend twice as long raiding in a given week as everybody else? WoW should not be able measuring your e-p e n i s <e:censored> or d i c k <e:censored> waving, and ultimately, if you're dedicated to WoW enough to clear 10 and 25 in the same week then you earned the gear if it drops.

'QQ but people will do both and get more gearz!' is not a valid argument against reverting the raid lock change.

09/06/2011 13:18Posted by Aylish

Not if they block out the loot, like the valor points are capped. As in, you'll only be eligible for loot the first time you kill a boss that reset.

This would work - the way I would suggest this works is similar to uhm...

You know in Culling of Strat, when the drake drops, if you already have it but somebody in the group doesn't already, you auto-pass it. Only once everybody has it does it become available to roll for. Well, if you adapted this methodology so that when one raid lock for that instance (10/25) has a boss marked as 'killed', you auto pass all loot on that boss in the other lock. This would allow you to still get loot off bosses you didn't kill on the other lock but not get double loot from the same boss per lockout period.

09/06/2011 12:55Posted by Dreyauc

To be honest, since the gear and bosses within 10 and 25 man are now the same, I see no real reason to stop people from doing both on the same lock - the maximum amount of valor points available to an individual within a given week is capped and cannot be modified so there would be no real harm with reverting this back to two individual locks that I can see...

I'm assuming Blizzard don't want people to gear up "too fast", because they want the content to last for as long as humanly possible. Of course, if they actually released content more often than once every 6 months they wouldn't have to impose such heavy restrictions on the progress of players. Not that it even matters considering the most dedicated guilds clear through the heroic content faster than most guilds can get through normal modes.