Low level pvp gear - where the heck is it?

28 Worgen Hunter
795
Actually, that isn't true : Blizzard 'looked at the level 60 PvP Gear' for the pre-Cata Patch, and stream-lined them (more).

Stream-lined?

Yes, before this the Stats on them (or more correctly, the Armor; I hope we can agree the Weapons are 'okay') were all over the place, providing non-perfect Gear for every Spec as every Spec got something out of this jumble. Only problem was that the Outland Gear provided either more-streamlined Gear (making it strictly better for a spec) or was simply better (like the Plate Socket Chest from Ramps vs old Paladin Chest) even without WotLK Epic/Rare Gems in it.


Are you on crack?

Field Marshal's Aegis:

http://www.wowhead.com/itemset=402

How exactly is this set streamlined for a Holy Paladin? It has a grand total of 20 Intellect on it from the 6-piece set bonus, zero Spirit and a ton of Strength. Level 70, 80 and 85 sets all have two options for Holy or Prot/Ret.


I'm only high on life.

Seriously, yes the 60 Epic Gear NOW offers nothing for Holy, but before they streamlined it, it was (on top of my head, and not meant as actual numbers)) things like +19 STr/+19 intellect/+19 Stam vs +30Str/+30 Stam on a piece.

Meaning that you could waltz in in Outland Greens from the AH, and still have better stats for your chosen spec (and actually an amalgam of Outland and GM Gear is often better, but let's not digress)

So basically they made a choice between sub-optimal Gear for all three Paladin specs (something that, funnily enough, some people now complaint about when it still exists with e.g. the Druid AB Boots), or making a set that is pretty good for two out of three specs.

Lazy design?

Perhaps, but on the other hand if you look at e.g. Outland Gear, there are still quite a bit of items that make little sense now (Plate with +Intellect, +Stam, +Dodge for example) that also need fixing, perhaps even more (as these items are nothing but Vendor/DE fodder now).

But of course they could design a new level 60 Epic set aimed for Holydins, as the balance problems you'd create with earlier brackets doesn't apply (that much) for 60-64, because the Outland Quest Gear is roughly equal to the GM gear (except for the melee/ranged weapons) if you ignore the set bonusses.

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28 Worgen Hunter
795

And on my remark of gods and demi-gods, I meant it as a figure of speech of course. When "God" becomes the norm, it ceases to be god and becomes "normal". Yes bringing God down to mortal level could work as well, but I do wonder which would be more fun (which, in the end, is the point of a game). Giving players a goal to become cool (after being crushed a few dozen times) too or rather make everyone look like clowns (quest gear really does that). I just think the class imbalances would become worse when people don't have access to better gear with more health. Rogues and hunters would be able to nuke everything then.


I know I'll sound like a broken record, but did twinks ever give people the desire 'to become cool too'?

I'd wager to say that that isn't exactly the way things pan out, considering you still see sheer hatred against twinks and some people even justify steamrolling players who have say only joined a month ago over and over and over again, because a twink stole their twinkie five years ago (or one-shotted them with a Critted Centaur ammo-shot, as the case may be).

And if this is all about 'looking cool' a much, much better solution - which would please a LOT of people - would be if WoW had an Appearance/Costume Tab so that people could customise their armor's look.

Even 90's games had Dyes to re-color your gear...
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27 Dwarf Shaman
230
Looking cool might not have been the best way to express myself. Rather "being cool" is more appropriate. The way gear looks is only a small part of it, but also the way you act and can participate in PVP ... actually helping to achieve objectives instead of being target practice.

And I do remember in vanilla people running dungeons at low level to get some decent gear while levleling, so they could actually do something useful in WSG. But back then you actually had to run to the instance (no summoning stone either), so there was quite a lot of effort involved just to "be cool".
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1 Worgen Hunter
0
They should release lots of low level pvp gear with lots of stam on it, which would sort out some of the problems of low level pvp.
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28 Worgen Hunter
795
Looking cool might not have been the best way to express myself. Rather "being cool" is more appropriate. The way gear looks is only a small part of it, but also the way you act and can participate in PVP ... actually helping to achieve objectives instead of being target practice.


And we're back to that twinks never made people think 'ow golly let's be cool ourselves'.

Granted, in case of twinks people could do so at worst right at the next bracket 10 whole levels of gearing opportunities later, unlike is the case with Heirlooms, but even while it was a more reachable goal in technical terms (the thing was of course that people wanted to spend time on their mains, not on their alts, and begrudged those that did), this didn't stop people from disliking twinks.

Why?

Because of the same thing that happened with e.g. Freemann and my Muilezeltje: I could pretty much play too many Battlegrounds on my own.

So even when you're being the nicest guy around and play strictly to objectives, don't flame, don't camp or pull any of the other crap both 'loomers and twinks do and did to variably degree, you are leaving people out in a multi-player game, which of course isn't fun for those left out.

(Pretty much the same btw with Dungeons: certainly with healer back-up, Muiltje can basically solo every Dungeon the Random Tool puts her in on my Quest for just a single Tumultuous Ring of the Bear, and people have left the Group on several occassions because of this)

And that is why plenty of people liked the BG situation right after the split the best:

with the average gear level being Greens and at best the odd unenchanted Blue (often a class Quest item or BoE; remember that the LFD Tool didn't exist back then, and PvP Gear required boatloads of Marks), pretty much everybody could - and as a result, did (queue times for both Factions were less than 2 minutes) - jump right in and participate meaningfully.


And I do remember in vanilla people running dungeons at low level to get some decent gear while levleling, so they could actually do something useful in WSG. But back then you actually had to run to the instance (no summoning stone either), so there was quite a lot of effort involved just to "be cool".


I remember that too, and that situation was the best, because as explained before, making powerful Gear more easily accessible only creates more balance problems.

And it also meant you had to (learn to) play nice and work in groups well enough, and be interested more in actual play skill vs the 'Gear-!@#$sm' of later Expansions.
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14 Human Warrior
350
Heirlooms have too powerful stats compared to items with same/higher itemlevel yes.
pvp gear is ''lacking'', err... Go AH some items? And why the !@#$ would you need a deathfrost enchant at low lvl? There are lots of enchants available, on AH/whisp an enchanter whatever.
If you'd move the vendor lets say in Ashenvale... It would remove another fun thing of the game, you wanne do what? Stand in !@#$ing Stormwind 10-85?! If you hate spending time traveling you're lazy. Most content in wow is ghost-town nowadays.

15/07/2011 15:56Posted by Googl
I believe these changes would make low level PVP more worthwhile and interesting as a levelling option.

It already is, looking at gear/enchants/travel.

Real advice, don't only pvp, do some dungeons once in a while.
Edited by Jonbo on 22/07/2011 15:39 BST
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27 Dwarf Shaman
230
Explain to me how travelling to Ashenvale on foot for the tenth time is any fun at all? Especially now that the cataclysm removed half of the road there. It only means very few people will bother going there, might as well remove them ... or make them relevant.

As for the "ghost town thing", I doubt this will make a difference. I've never seen anyone before in Ashenvale or at the quartemaster when I went on alts. Now, in WOTLK, in TBC or in Vanilla. No I don't want to stand around in Stormwind, I want to be in battlegrounds if I so choose.

As for your 'advice'. As I've said several times already Blizzard stated they want battlegrounds to be a valid option for levelling. Dungeons and quests are the two other options for levelling and they give gear, herbs/mines/skinning, cash, ... why shouldn't levelling through PVP at least give gear? I can level to 80 by just doing dungeons, on a tanking or healing toon I'll have near instant queues the entire time. Doing so would give me a full set of appropriate gear the entire time. PVP gives close to nothing. Yes if you have heirlooms you don't need it, but that doesn't sound like a proper way to think about game design.
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27 Dwarf Shaman
230

And if this is all about 'looking cool' a much, much better solution - which would please a LOT of people - would be if WoW had an Appearance/Costume Tab so that people could customise their armor's look.

Even 90's games had Dyes to re-color your gear...


Bit unrelated but it's an idea I've seen many times before and would love to happen. For example the GM weapons are some of the best looking gear ... like ever. I just never find a reason to use any of them ...
So yes it would be amazing if they turned into PVP gear accessible to anyone, but your idea might be a solution to the abandonment of the best looking gear on a more general level.
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28 Worgen Hunter
795

As for your 'advice'. As I've said several times already Blizzard stated they want battlegrounds to be a valid option for levelling. Dungeons and quests are the two other options for levelling and they give gear, herbs/mines/skinning, cash, ... why shouldn't levelling through PVP at least give gear? I can level to 80 by just doing dungeons, on a tanking or healing toon I'll have near instant queues the entire time. Doing so would give me a full set of appropriate gear the entire time. PVP gives close to nothing. Yes if you have heirlooms you don't need it, but that doesn't sound like a proper way to think about game design.


The problem is that you are either unable or unwilling to see that:
- effort keeps things (more) balanced;

- different aspects of the game give different rewards, because those aspects work differently;

- you keep having a farcical idea about PvE Gear, perhaps also because you don't see the differences between the aspects.

In low level PvE, Gear doesn't really matter. The game is tuned such that you can Quest practically naked, and in Dungeons you can easily walk around in Greens 20-odd levels below you, especially as DPS. The Mobs really don't care, they're not out to defeat you, they exist to be defeated, as e.g. their basic lack of any tactics at all shows (best example are archer mobs that advance towards you after two shots; even a 2001 game like Dungeon Siege handled that better)

This means that the gear gaps - which do exist, especially where Blue or better Gear is concerned, I could for example never get a Blue tanking set just from 35-39 Blues if levelling - go far more unnoticed.

There is for example far more Agi Leather than there is Caster Leather before level 40 (a trend that still holds true till Outland), but for PvE purposes this means jack all as that mob is going to die anyway.

Also, the best gear in the vast majority of cases (certainly post-Shattering) is RNG Drop Gear people have to share with potentially four other people. That is also why there is more Agi Leather: there are far more potential users you have to share it with, so in order to have a shot at getting any there needs to be more of it to go around.

Contrast this with PvP:
- that other player IS trying to defeat you, and WILL take all the steps he can/wants to take to reach his goal of defeating you

Gear suddenly takes a whole other meaning, as unlike PvE you will have to stack as well.

That is why I talk so much about 'average Gear level': if say in your Battlegroup (to use the old situation) there are predominatly RP realms with people only trying to look good, you'll have a lower average/to be expected Gear level than if your Battlegroup consists mostly of PvP realms and hence people whose primary concern is to have an as powerful PvP toon as powerful.

It's also the reason why I don't want to see it rise (which as explained before is what happens with even more PvP rewards), as that only means the gap with PvE becomes even bigger - which defeats the whole purpose of making PvP an option as a break from Questing in the first place.

- 100% Vendor Gear is far easier to obtain than RNG Gear.

PvP provides 100% available Vendor Blues (and better), and with the current prices you can pretty easily get the upgrades every appliccable bracket just by doing Battlegrounds ie spending the time the way you like.,

In contrast, in order to get the same kind of Blue + PvE gear evn for the PvP slots - Boots, Belt, Trinket, Cloak, Weapon, Missile Weapon, Bracer, Ring etc.- just for one 'Bracket' you'll be Locking your XP quite a bit, at least you would if you wanetd to PvE covered in on-levelish Blues in the first place.

''See? That is why PvP Gear is such a great option! We could still say Heirlooms aren't the gear issue in low-level PvP even when it clearly is, as then peoiple could get 'free Blues' all the time!''

Besides the technical points (to have meaning, e.g. they'd either have to be grow-along as well, or have stats so powerful that their static status doesn't matter, and of course Heirlooms being Enchantable doesn't help either ) , the core issues are that making gear more available has never really helped the situation for newcomers etc. before (to put it mildly) and making Gear that is a) more easy to acquire and b) more powerful than PvE Drops (as to have any meaning it would have to be as powerful as Heirlooms and hence more powerful than PvE Drops) will only bring in people that are solely interested in 'botting for gear'.

All of which has been explained at length before.

No offense, but if you are primarily concerend with 'getting enough shinies' (as this whole 'reward talk' does seem to indicate, one would say challenge etc. is its own reward), and have decided that PvE offers far more of the rewards you want, one has to wonder why you are concerned with PvP in the first place.
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27 Dwarf Shaman
230
It seems our major disagreements stem from a different philosophy on the position of battlegrounds in the levelling process. You obviously think of them as merely "a break from questing". I disagree.

Yes I know my idea has flaws. Then again it's impossible (I dare ya) to find a solution for every little problem people have. I believe mine solves quite a few issues with a very limited investment on Blizzard's part. Yes there might be better solutions, but you have to be realistic and see what's actually feasible for the current game. Blizzard is going to do very little if anything for low level PVP, I base my ideas around that.

And yes raising the average item level causes problems. But, in my opinion, less than not giving a valid path of advancement from what I believe is a significant part of the levelling process. Heirlooms do make this debate more complicated, that's why I try to avoid the subject ... it's being discussed in a few dozen other threads already.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9100
Twinks is not a problem.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9100
Twinks are not a problem.
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70 Goblin Shaman
2850
15/07/2011 16:12Posted by Hyacïnth
Try exploring Ashenvale, I hear some of the silverwing elves sell stuff from lv 18. Lets see if you can find them. I could tell you the exact location, but that take some fun away from exploring. The zone is very beautiful, the night elves are good landscapers.

ok now find me holy paladin pvp gear at low levels until you hit 70level
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85 Undead Rogue
2300
I need know where to buy, pvp anything for honor in exchange. on lvl 10-19
For my illuminatori 14 priest human with awsome googles. I got `300 honor
Edited by Raqelka on 13/03/2012 22:18 GMT
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