World of Warcraft®

Reading through this thread I've noticed complaints against class imbalance, gear inbalance etc, but I've not seen (forgive me if it's been mentioned) anything to do with skill/ability.

Is it so difficult to suck it up and accept there are people out there who are better at this game than you?

The TwinkInfo community represents players of all skill levels many of whom also hold high ratings at endgame. It is unanimously agreed that low levels are greatly imbalanced. If you would like I can conduct an official survey of the entire twink community that I represent to confirm this, but it would simply reveal what I have said here.

I joined my first battleground as a level 27 hunter back in the days of proper twinks and repeatedly got owned by every twink I met. So what? I didn't rage quit and declare the game unbalanced and demand Blizzard remake the game as I desire. I accepted that was how the game played and adapted to it -

With all respect, you cannot compare post shattering to pre 3.2. The low level pvp game is very very different

I geared and enchanted my character as best I could at that level and battlegrounds have never since been more entertaining for me. As Scerion said, in real life, people learn to adapt, they don't go repeatedly buring their hand on a stove and not learn from it. If you're not enjoying low level PvP, stay away from it. I don't enjoy getting run over by cars, so I don't walk out into the road.

Adapting is something that twinks do very well. It is a widely used mantra within the twink community of "adapt and carry on". We are happy to react and adapt to changing circumstances, but we are not content with such blatant imbalance.

I appreciate the fact that this is an artificial construction and can be altered, unlike real life, but you'll have to accept that the game isn't always going to balanced in every department.

Even if you don't agree surely you realise that someone has to argue in favour of low level balance, even if it is just devils advocate (which it certainly isnt) otherwise you can't be sure of a fair debate.

I honestly cannot understand how threads like this keep appearing?

welll obviously it represents a demand for change

People who work for their gear getting grief from those who don't. Honestly, if you think people shouldn't use heirlooms because it's unfair on people with dungeon blues, shouldn't people in dungeon blues not use them because that's unfair on people with questing greens, and shouldn't people in questing greens not use them because that's unfair on people with grey gear? Where do you draw the line? Battlegrounds are always going to be full of people with better gear beating those with worse gear.

The sheer scale of the gear difference is the factor in this argument. I am not opposed to those earning gear being at an advantage, but that advantage should not be utterly gamebreaking in these situations.

As for the point about newcomers trying to PvP, I mentioned earlier that I went into PvP in greens and got my backside kicked. I didn't immediately run to the forums because some hunter who'd spent days/weeks/months of time and a heap of gold earning his gear killed me in seconds. He deserved to kill me, I didn't desereve to kill him. Please understand that. Newcomers will either enjoy PvP regardless of being killed as they understand the other players are better, or they'll ragequit and whine on the forums like we're seeing here.

Not everyone has your restraint, and regardless it is in Blizzards best interests to ensure new players get maximum enjoyment from the game. Of course new players have no right to beat veterans but I would at least hope that you agree that they do deserve class balance.

Heirlooms aren't the problem. They're just another level of gear. The real issue lies with damage being too high for the health pools and some classes being too powerful (read having too many abilities at a low level). I'm looking at you hunters. However, this doesn't stop me from playing PvP, nor does it stop the dozens of people who are in the battlegrounds with me.

I agree with the assessment of class imbalance, damage:surv ratios and other issues, but I still believe that from my own experiences on both sides of the fence and looking at the raw stats of characters on either side of the fence that heirlooms are not satisfactory in their current state.

I just don't get the moaning about heirlooms to be quite honest, people are still trying to imply that they're way ahead in stats when compared to dungeon farmable gear in the lower brackets, which is not the case.

Lets take a lvl18 rogue (or any other leather class) as an example. Just for !@#$s and giggles I made two chardev profiles, one with lvl18 Rogue in looms + dungeon/quest/PvP blues and the other in dungeon/quest/PvP blues without a single heirloom and honestly the difference is minimal.

The one with Looms: http://www.chardev.org/?profile=190315 And..
..the one without: http://www.chardev.org/?profile=190313
Now where's the drastic difference between those two sets for example?

The set without looms may not even be optimal, or "best", I just put some easily obtainable stuff together, skipping hc items like the AGM or Lucky Fishing Hat. You can get most of that gear without even needing a higher lvl boost, just lock your XP and que to WC/SFK.

Looms aren't that OP, it's the class imbalance that let's my Rogue oneshot anything that has under 600 health.

Agility based classes scale to good at low levels. Thats the only problem (and disc priests).

target enemy > scatter shot > aimed shot

concur....

Just roll op class or skip low lvl pvp. Blizzard doesn't care.

http://i.imgur.com/D6b3c.jpg

11/08/2011 00:36Posted by Zurki

Agility based classes scale to good at low levels. Thats the only problem (and disc priests).

Paladins are overpowered too. Ret/prot/holy, none of them die if played well. Their survivability and healing at low level is quite insane. And ret has some incredible burst.

Disc priests have their shields which are a bit too strong at low levels. But a good player can get around those. It still could do with a bit less scaling pre-30 or so.

Hunters are obvious. High damage and all abilities they need to kite, while few classes have gap closers.

Rogues have ambush which is insane for the health pools at low levels.

Feral druids have very impressive damage given some gear.

I do wonder about enhancement shamans though. An agility based class I don't really think is overpowered. Their signature ability lava lash is quite pathetic at low levels, why didn't they get stormstrike? But at least they get a gap closer at level 15.

As for underpowered classes:
Warriors. Gap closer + hamstring is all they need. Too bad the only two gap closers they have are intercept and heroic leap if I'm not mistaken. Heroic leap being a 80+ ability and intercept needing berserker stance.

Warlocks. Dot everything in sight before you die is a rather dull design. Certainly below level 20 where passive health regen will negate your dots. They need some loving.

And you have a few classes than in my opinion just need some tweaking.
Mage: loads of burst as arcane, control as frost, but dies in one shot of a rogue, hunter, ...
Elemental shaman: lava burst at level 3 please, like it was in beta I believe.
Resto druid: Swiftmend shouldn't consume a HOT, even without the glyph. And regrowth seems rather weak compared to what other healers can dish out.
Resto shaman: Healing surge at level 10. All healers should have their fast heals early, now only priests have theirs in the 10-14 bracket with overpowered shields and penance.

As for underpowered classes:
Warriors. Gap closer + hamstring is all they need. Too bad the only two gap closers they have are intercept and heroic leap if I'm not mistaken. Heroic leap being a 80+ ability and intercept needing berserker stance.

charge in combat...sadly only available at 29 as prot :S and much later as arms.
and without glyph options now range is simply not good enough

Shield block and revenge should have been available before 19 as well imo. Only survival stuff warriors had.

But above all its Hamstring...its simply beyond stupid they put that on lv26. When hunters already have 4 snares at lower level....concussion,wingclip,scattershot,petstun even pet snare at 20 if im not mistaking. And the Anti snare - Disengage.

Before I start the proper reply, I'd just like to take a moment to apologise if I can across as a bit of an !@#$ in my previous post. You seem like a reasonable person and I'd like to think we can share opinions in a similarly reasonable manner. Your reply was much more tactful than mine and certainly more civil, so I'd like to thank you for not just dismissing me as an idiot, which certain parts of my post made me out to be.

10/08/2011 22:51Posted by Korette

People who work for their gear getting grief from those who don't. Honestly, if you think people shouldn't use heirlooms because it's unfair on people with dungeon blues, shouldn't people in dungeon blues not use them because that's unfair on people with questing greens, and shouldn't people in questing greens not use them because that's unfair on people with grey gear? Where do you draw the line? Battlegrounds are always going to be full of people with better gear beating those with worse gear.

The sheer scale of the gear difference is the factor in this argument. I am not opposed to those earning gear being at an advantage, but that advantage should not be utterly gamebreaking in these situations.

I understand what you mean by this. If you have heirlooms there's little to no chance of anyone not in similar gear being able to kill you. However, this kind of thing is present at the endgame too, so Blizzard are obviously happy enough with how it plays out.

10/08/2011 22:51Posted by Korette

As for the point about newcomers trying to PvP, I mentioned earlier that I went into PvP in greens and got my backside kicked. I didn't immediately run to the forums because some hunter who'd spent days/weeks/months of time and a heap of gold earning his gear killed me in seconds. He deserved to kill me, I didn't desereve to kill him. Please understand that. Newcomers will either enjoy PvP regardless of being killed as they understand the other players are better, or they'll ragequit and whine on the forums like we're seeing here.

Not everyone has your restraint, and regardless it is in Blizzards best interests to ensure new players get maximum enjoyment from the game. Of course new players have no right to beat veterans but I would at least hope that you agree that they do deserve class balance.

I agree they deserve class balance. I don't think they deserve gear balance. As I've said, I don't believe heirlooms are the problem.

10/08/2011 22:51Posted by Korette

Heirlooms aren't the problem. They're just another level of gear. The real issue lies with damage being too high for the health pools and some classes being too powerful (read having too many abilities at a low level). I'm looking at you hunters. However, this doesn't stop me from playing PvP, nor does it stop the dozens of people who are in the battlegrounds with me.

I agree with the assessment of class imbalance, damage:surv ratios and other issues, but I still believe that from my own experiences on both sides of the fence and looking at the raw stats of characters on either side of the fence that heirlooms are not satisfactory in their current state.

Could you elaborate on that a little more? How do you mean "not satisfactory?" Do you think they give too much damage? Too much health? I admit in most situations that heirloom gear is superior to any blue of the current level, but I thought that was the idea?

As an attempt to clear things up a little, do you think heirlooms are more of an issue than class imbalance? Heirlooms certainly exacerbate the gap between certain classes (lets say hunters and warlocks) but I don't think they're the problem. The focus should be more on the lack of balance rather than the gear people may be wearing.

11/08/2011 10:36Posted by Lathgertha

Agility based classes scale to good at low levels. Thats the only problem (and disc priests).

Paladins are overpowered too. Ret/prot/holy, none of them die if played well. Their survivability and healing at low level is quite insane. And ret has some incredible burst.

Disc priests have their shields which are a bit too strong at low levels. But a good player can get around those. It still could do with a bit less scaling pre-30 or so.

Hunters are obvious. High damage and all abilities they need to kite, while few classes have gap closers.

Rogues have ambush which is insane for the health pools at low levels.

Feral druids have very impressive damage given some gear.

I do wonder about enhancement shamans though. An agility based class I don't really think is overpowered. Their signature ability lava lash is quite pathetic at low levels, why didn't they get stormstrike? But at least they get a gap closer at level 15.

As for underpowered classes:
Warlocks. Dot everything in sight before you die is a rather dull design. Certainly below level 20 where passive health regen will negate your dots. They need some loving.

If anyone here plays level 70 PvP, they might agree with my and say that these issues still apply at that level. Some of the problems you mentioned such as the warrior are fixed by this level, but most classes still haven't got vital abilites yet, for example, the warlock teleport.

The point of my post here is just to say that even in a battleground where there should be a level playing field (all players are packing the same gear), certain classes continue to dominate based purely on the playstyle of the class or the abilites they have been given at the level. PvP is designed to be balanced at 85 and 85 only, which I feel is a mistake. I'd like for all classes to get all of their abilites much earlier. I believe this is the essence of the problem, not gear.

P.S. Sorry for the double post.

I agree they deserve class balance. I don't think they deserve gear balance. As I've said, I don't believe heirlooms are the problem.

But your wrong...It is....and after that class imbalance.

I understand what you mean by this. If you have heirlooms there's little to no chance of anyone not in similar gear being able to kill you. However, this kind of thing is present at the endgame too, so Blizzard are obviously happy enough with how it plays out.

Then it doesnt make sense introducing the xp-lock....unless they wanted the hierloomed players only to dominate and not the ones with maxed out blues. It doesnt take many hours to gear (twink) out a char to be equally op as the twinks that had blue only. hence the locking seperation makes no sense - when they at the same time allow hierlooms...
Also allowing fresh 85s to be steemrolled by ruthless gladiator geared players seems totally opposite the "official intention" of the xp-lock seperation.

Could you elaborate on that a little more? How do you mean "not satisfactory?" Do you think they give too much damage? Too much health? I admit in most situations that heirloom gear is superior to any blue of the current level, but I thought that was the idea?

As an attempt to clear things up a little, do you think heirlooms are more of an issue than class imbalance? Heirlooms certainly exacerbate the gap between certain classes (lets say hunters and warlocks) but I don't think they're the problem. The focus should be more on the lack of balance rather than the gear people may be wearing.

While this isn't targeted at me, I'd still like to give my opinion.

First off I remember Blizzard announcing heirlooms as scaling gear that will be at the same level of an average blue or perhaps a bit less. They certainly didn't say: BiS from 1-80. (In the case of the caster weapons this is the most obvious.)

My major problem with this is from the perspective of a PVP leveller. Either you have heirlooms or you spend over half your levelling time in PVE doing quests and dungeons to be competitive. Pretty poor way of thinking in my opinion. Part of the issue is heirlooms being too strong, the other part is the lack of gear from PVP below level 60. Add the imbalance of enchants on heirlooms and you have a very flawed design.

I gave a very simplified version of my opinion on class balance above, but whether classes are balanced or not is directly related to gear. Ambush is a prime example, if an ambush only does 30-50% damage instead of a 1-shot it's less overpowered. This is already the case on people with gear enchanted for health and especially prot, holy paladins. One solution is giving people more health, another would be to take away ambush (and give garrote?)

Other imbalances like hunters kiting warriors can't be solved by gear, but by giving warriors some more abilities. (And perhaps taking concussive shot or something away from hunters for a few dozen levels.)

But seeing the two as separate issues will lead to new overpowered classes. A paladin with an even higher health pool would cream anyone for example.

If you like to pvp at low lvl make sure to get good gear, like heirlooms and some low lvl blue's or good green, without this you will getting one shotted at lvl 10-14. Its just about te group you join and you need to be lucky that in your group are a lot of twinks,lvl 13/14 players with heirlooms and classes like arcane mage,huntards and disc priests.

If you dont like pvp, why bother just quest for one hour, problem solved.

And there always will be gamers who wants to pwn the shiet out of you, in any game. same with for example CoD, when you play with no guns,no upgrades as new players...

First off I remember Blizzard announcing heirlooms as scaling gear that will be at the same level of an average blue or perhaps a bit less. They certainly didn't say: BiS from 1-80. (In the case of the caster weapons this is the most obvious.)

Not that it matters greatly - but i think its probably 1-70.
At 70-74 the gladiator gear is better than hierlooms.
at 75-79 cata gear will be better.

Otherwise its true - and I for one is quite sick of hearing people claim the opposite - from lv1-70 all hierlooms perhaps except the trinkets - is BiS i would say for 99.99%. I dont even think the epics 60 match them...gg.

The amount of time a newcomer or casual have to spend grinding gear to be competitive is like almost 100% of the game time for having a few bgs with gear that can match leaves probably about 1-2 pvp games every 5th level. And getting gear thats gonna match a hierloomed char is only really theoretically possible - you would have to be extremely lucky with drops and buy enchants thats really expensive for gear that last 1-2 levels.

Heirlooms is a reward for players who have allrdy a lvl 85 account.
So new players are pretty srewed at low lvl? Yes they are!
But this is same with pve. As new player its very hard to get into HC's raids as new players. Just got this game around 1 1/2 year ago and it was very hard to get into some ICC raiding even with some decent pve gear. There are to few players how have patience and time to helping gear other players.
This game is till about pvp ratings or Pve exp. with decent item lvl's/GS.
Blizzard should gave some rewards for those who are social and would spend time to help others.

Blizzard should gave some rewards for those who are social and would spend time to help others

Definately. Rather that than BoA rewarding for raiding / guildrep / pvp'ing at top level. You already get rewareded by gearing up that char....but its a reward for doing something egoistic.

11/08/2011 12:00Posted by Jeangiskhan

I agree they deserve class balance. I don't think they deserve gear balance. As I've said, I don't believe heirlooms are the problem.

But your wrong...It is....and after that class imbalance.

I think you mean "I think you're wrong" rather than simply "you're wrong." If there was one clear answer we wouldn't need to have this discussion.

11/08/2011 12:00Posted by Jeangiskhan

I understand what you mean by this. If you have heirlooms there's little to no chance of anyone not in similar gear being able to kill you. However, this kind of thing is present at the endgame too, so Blizzard are obviously happy enough with how it plays out.

Then it doesnt make sense introducing the xp-lock....unless they wanted the hierloomed players only to dominate and not the ones with maxed out blues. It doesnt take many hours to gear (twink) out a char to be equally op as the twinks that had blue only. hence the locking seperation makes no sense - when they at the same time allow hierlooms...
Also allowing fresh 85s to be steemrolled by ruthless gladiator geared players seems totally opposite the "official intention" of the xp-lock seperation.

Blizzard created the xp-lock for two major reasons
1) To give twinks a proper challenge in battlegrounds
2) To make it more enjoyable for people who weren't twinks

However, it looks like even though twinks are gone, people now complain about the next thing down; heirlooms. There's always something that's unfair it seems.

Could you elaborate on that a little more? How do you mean "not satisfactory?" Do you think they give too much damage? Too much health? I admit in most situations that heirloom gear is superior to any blue of the current level, but I thought that was the idea?

As an attempt to clear things up a little, do you think heirlooms are more of an issue than class imbalance? Heirlooms certainly exacerbate the gap between certain classes (lets say hunters and warlocks) but I don't think they're the problem. The focus should be more on the lack of balance rather than the gear people may be wearing.

While this isn't targeted at me, I'd still like to give my opinion.

First off I remember Blizzard announcing heirlooms as scaling gear that will be at the same level of an average blue or perhaps a bit less. They certainly didn't say: BiS from 1-80. (In the case of the caster weapons this is the most obvious.)

My major problem with this is from the perspective of a PVP leveller. Either you have heirlooms or you spend over half your levelling time in PVE doing quests and dungeons to be competitive. Pretty poor way of thinking in my opinion. Part of the issue is heirlooms being too strong, the other part is the lack of gear from PVP below level 60. Add the imbalance of enchants on heirlooms and you have a very flawed design.

I'm pretty sure most new players prefer to spend their time questing. As it's a fresh experience they're content to just enjoy the fantastic and immersive world they've just entered. If you're an existing player, you'll probably be levelling with heirlooms. If you're not, that's your choice, you know what you're getting yourself into.

I gave a very simplified version of my opinion on class balance above, but whether classes are balanced or not is directly related to gear. Ambush is a prime example, if an ambush only does 30-50% damage instead of a 1-shot it's less overpowered. This is already the case on people with gear enchanted for health and especially prot, holy paladins. One solution is giving people more health, another would be to take away ambush (and give garrote?)

Other imbalances like hunters kiting warriors can't be solved by gear, but by giving warriors some more abilities. (And perhaps taking concussive shot or something away from hunters for a few dozen levels.)

But seeing the two as separate issues will lead to new overpowered classes. A paladin with an even higher health pool would cream anyone for example.

Having just finished a low level battleground with my level 33 rogue, I feel I should argue against your ambush suggestion as a matter of principle. :P

Ambush is certainly a powerful ability, but it doesn't hit any harder than lava burst - which nobody seems to care about. Giving people more health pools isn't a good idea. As you said, paladins already have too much, coupled with their high armour values and superb self healing they'd be unstoppable. That's just one example.

Class imbalance is in no way whatsoever related to gear. Gear and class imbalance live on the opposite side of the planet. Earlier I mentioned level 70 PvP (that's xp-locked twink PvP) being unbalanced even though everyone has the same gear. Now, using your logic, that wouldn't be possible. I'm looking forward to the response :)

Edit: Fixed.

@Vesik
Xp lock for Twinks? You know better right?
They will get flag at start and will GY camp the !@#$ out of players. Then 2 min. for end of the game they will leave game...
Most twink players will play just normal bg's, just to PWN some lower geared players :)

@Xalvedor

I've not seen proper twinks in a normal battleground for a long time now. I assume they've all levelled or just don't play anymore. Maybe I'm just not getting into the same battlegrounds as them.

As to the final part of your comment, isn't the purpose of PvP to "pwn some lower geared players?" Or at least, that's what happens all the time anyway.

We should probably get back on topic.

Lets take a lvl18 rogue (or any other leather class) as an example.
..
The one with Looms: http://www.chardev.org/?profile=190315 And..
..the one without: http://www.chardev.org/?profile=190313
Now where's the drastic difference between those two sets for example?

With all respect, those chardevs are not optimal and nor is it an accurate representation of the general respective gear levels of the average heirloomer and the average non heirloomer.

For a start swords are indisputably better, but we'll ignore that for now since it doesn't have a major effect on the difference.

Anywho, the big difference comes from enchants. The majority of heirloomers have the most powerful enchants on their heirlooms because it is a very cost effective way of increasing their stats. Generally non heirloomers do not because whilst it is indeed possible it is not cheap by any means and would require a lot of time spent on mains to keep all items up to date ith enchants. This means that the heirloom rogue will have 42 more agility from items which is multipled by 1.3 from the Subtlety talent specialisation to 56.4 agility. On top of this the heirloomer has 4 more stamina, 4 more strength and 8 more dodge rating. This is an enormous boost to stats.

yes you can argue that the non heirloomers can get the enchant, but surely you can realise the very very significant disadvantage they are at?

Also, compounded on top of that is the need to regrind gear every 5 levels or so, something an heirloomer does not need to do to the same extent.

11/08/2011 11:48Posted by Vesik

Before I start the proper reply, I'd just like to take a moment to apologise if I can across as a bit of an !@#$ in my previous post

Apology taken. On the first glance you did seem a bit confrontational, but once I finished reading it was clear you were making a constructive argument. Don't worry, you didnt seem like too much of a ##%% :)

I understand what you mean by this. If you have heirlooms there's little to no chance of anyone not in similar gear being able to kill you. However, this kind of thing is present at the endgame too, so Blizzard are obviously happy enough with how it plays out.

I see your point, but I do not agree that low levels are analogous with endgame. At endgame the incentive to keep playing and the progression is provided in the form of gear progression (and ratings) which makes a gear gradient necessary and debatably beneficial. At low levels gear progression is not used as a primary form of progression, levelling is the main form of progression. Having to grind new gear is an annoyance. If a player wants to pursue gear as a progression form at low levels they should twink, which makes this argument irrelevant to them.

Therefore there is no need for a gear difference between "veteran" players and new players. All it does is create imbalance which leads to fights being solved more by RNG (whoever has best gear) than by skill which I'm not down with.

Could you elaborate on that a little more? How do you mean "not satisfactory?" ...

I feel that the acquisition method is flawed. While not hard for those it is accessible for it is not accessible to everyone. I applaud the idea that those who have levelled many times should have faster levelling, but I do not approve of them giving superior stats. I do not consider it good that heirloom outweighs blue gear. In my opinion it should be used and should be attractive for the experience bonus. This is what provides the levelling speed. As far as I can tell the extra stats serve no balanced purpose which makes them illogical. I would be happy if heirlooms were scaled back to be properly equivalent to items 2 ilevels behind the same level blues. This would still make heirlooms very attractive to use but would make them less OP. Ideally I would like heirloom items themselves completely scrapped and replaced with reusable enchants of a 5 or 10% experience bonus to a specific slot. This would completely fix the problem and it would stop every leveller and twink looking identical.

As an attempt to clear things up a little...

No I do not. If I had to choose one my first priority is the twink community which is largely unaffected by this and thus class balance and burst etc would be more important to me. That said, even from a levellers perspective class balance is more important since heirlooms are counterable with your own heirlooms. This does not however mean that I do not consider them a priority.

@ Korette

I'm not going to quote anything because of the text wall it would create.

I've picked out two major points in your argument that I'd like to discuss;
1) Gear acquisition vs heirloom acquisition
2) Class imbalance vs gear imbalance

1) Gearing up is an entertaining part of the game at first. Players can and often will spend hours searching for one piece of gear. Although at first this is an enjoyable pursuit, after levelling a few characters it becomes tedious and boring. Thus heirlooms were created. I personally use heirlooms in PvP because I'm sick of grinding dungeons for that nice agility hat only to lose it to some idiot mage when it finally drops after the umpteenth run. If heirlooms are to be adressed, I'd prefer a scaling down of their stats rather than removal or replacement with exp increasing enchants.

2) Regardless of whether a player has heirlooms or not, certain classes/specs are more suited to PvP. These FOTM classes/specs are not neccessarily overpowered or broken (though they often are) but their strength may lie in PvP whereas they perform poorly in PvE. Finding a middle ground is the challenge, and Blizzard have never quite managed to get it right. If balancing is to be addressed, damage and healing needs to be scaled down and some classes need to have more in depth overhauls, e.g. MM hunters and disc priests.

Personally, I feel that the issues of heirlooms and class imbalance are not the major problem. Surely, the biggest issue is utility. All classes need to get all of their abilities much earlier. Something like two new abilities every level starting with the most important ones. Some classes really suffer not having some of their vital tools available for most of the game. My level 70 warlock twink for example simply cannot beat rogues because they have so much more utility. It really sucks at a level I wouldn't consider "low" we still have the same classes steamrolling through battlegrounds because they are designed to do so well in a PvP environment.

They're not so much overpowered as poorly designed.