Low lvl pvp is pathetic, just plain pathetic.

(Locked)

19 Night Elf Druid
560
11/08/2011 19:34Posted by Vesik
1) Gearing up is an entertaining part of the game at first. Players can and often will spend hours searching for one piece of gear. Although at first this is an enjoyable pursuit, after levelling a few characters it becomes tedious and boring. Thus heirlooms were created. I personally use heirlooms in PvP because I'm sick of grinding dungeons for that nice agility hat only to lose it to some idiot mage when it finally drops after the umpteenth run. If heirlooms are to be adressed, I'd prefer a scaling down of their stats rather than removal or replacement with exp increasing enchants.


I'm not against gearing up, it can be entertaining. I know that back in the day I spent the best part of half a day trying to acquire a red shirt to pimp my level 22 hunters image ^^ (it clashed terribly with my hair in the end, FML). That said I do not feel that requiring it to engage in levelling PvP is a good system. If a player wants to gear up then twinking is the ideal environment for that. The player gets to get extended playtime with that gear and gets to fight equal geared players. I don't approve of gearing up solely for the reason of "rolling noobs" so I don't factor that in. Imo pvp is better with out gear differences.

Its worth pointing out that blues are not only acquired through the potential RNG fest of dungeons. Both honour and quests reward blues. I would thoroughly support a move to introduce more blue quality gear in quests and pvp. There is a noticable lack of them in certain places and increasing the number would buff the pvp underdogs without significantly buffing heirloomers or the top end of gear. This coupled with scaled back heirlooms would be a very favourable outcome in my opinion and from what you've said would it be safe to hope that you would agree?

2) Regardless of whether a player has heirlooms or not, certain classes/specs are more suited to PvP. These FOTM classes/specs are not neccessarily overpowered or broken (though they often are) but their strength may lie in PvP whereas they perform poorly in PvE. Finding a middle ground is the challenge, and Blizzard have never quite managed to get it right. If balancing is to be addressed, damage and healing needs to be scaled down and some classes need to have more in depth overhauls, e.g. MM hunters and disc priests.


There is little differentiation between PvP and PvE for OP classes and specs. One that is OP in PvP will be OP in the other in general. Hunters, disc, paladins (holy and ret) and rogues all perform spectacularly well in both PvE and PvP while classes like warlocks and spriests struggle in both. There is the odd class like the warrior that better than average in PvE but underpowered in pvP, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

My point is that this problem hasn't stemmed from Blizzard not managing to get things right, it in fact stems from a complete lack of any balancing thought by Blizzard. There are a multitude of very good reasons for me saying this, but crucially since the only balances provided by Blizzard for low levels were the nourish and swipe changes. These were done with a complete disregard for low level pvp (I have a blue post confirming as much) and they only served to make every healer and tank capable in dungeons. Further than this (other than the hunter pet bug fix) there have been no balances what so ever in either PvE or PvP. There are other reasons for me to say that close to zero thought has gone into low level balance, but these are the main ones.

Personally, I feel that the issues of heirlooms and class imbalance are not the major problem. Surely, the biggest issue is utility. All classes need to get all of their abilities much earlier. Something like two new abilities every level starting with the most important ones. Some classes really suffer not having some of their vital tools available for most of the game. My level 70 warlock twink for example simply cannot beat rogues because they have so much more utility. It really sucks at a level I wouldn't consider "low" we still have the same classes steamrolling through battlegrounds because they are designed to do so well in a PvP environment.

They're not so much overpowered as poorly designed.


Yes and no. utility is a major issue for low levels, but damage and healing values and efficiencies vary hugely between classes too. There are also problems with resistance being overpowered and trinket length being poorly considered. These all lead to overpoweredness. So yes, it is poor (or rather non existant) design but that in turn leads to overpowering. The main point I would like to make is that there is not one single root to the problem with low level balance. There are several prominent problems and fixing one will not work as a general solution because another one will take its place.
Edited by Korette on 11/08/2011 20:33 BST
82 Tauren Priest
1195
some time ago I became bored with my server and started an alliance warlock on a different server. Leveled from lv 1 picked my professions, got me some money then hit some instances for gearing up and finally at lv 23 or so entered BGs......

...and leveled to 72 without heirlooms or a full set of blues nor enchants. I died often and I wasnt the killing machine for sure. That didnt prevent me from playing smart or winning most of my BGs (at least it feels like I won most) and mostly.....

....HAVING FUN


I simply had to accept that some people who put more time and effort into their chars had advantages over me, I still managed to hit 72 have now equal gear to everybody else (without the gems and enchants I admit) and participating in PvP.

Whoever is whining about it....is just lazy or bad and not even trying.
35 Night Elf Hunter
300


Class imbalance is in no way whatsoever related to gear. Gear and class imbalance live on the opposite side of the planet. Earlier I mentioned level 70 PvP (that's xp-locked twink PvP) being unbalanced even though everyone has the same gear. Now, using your logic, that wouldn't be possible. I'm looking forward to the response :)


I believe you misunderstood my point. I'm not saying gear will solve all issues, far from it. What I meant was that IF Blizzard ever decides to balance level 1-84 they have to somehow get a benchmark. What gear do you expect on people, only after that the balancing can begin. Ambush is really hard to balance, if you can't say what the minimum health pool/armour of the victims and maximum damage output of a rogue is.

This is most noticeable say levels 10-57 where the gear gap between players is huge. As a paladin I can take anything a rogue/hunter dishes out, because of the armour and health pool I get through heirlooms. From my perspective they're wimps. From the perspective of a 400 hp warlock those same rogues and hunters are way overpowered. IF any balancing is going to happen below level 60, gear is a huge factor of it. Like I mentioned in my class overview there are a few exceptions like warriors and warlocks, who just have nothing useful below level 30.

Now I can't say much for the level 70 twink bracket, having never played in it. But if as you say everyone is in a similar level of gear, then Blizzard should have it easier to figure out some huffs/nerfs to get things more balanced. Just remember that classes are different and balance is a far cry from classes having the same abilities.

But I'm a rather selfish person and the twink brackets are of lesser importance to me. I care more about the levelling brackets and would love to see a game where you can join a battleground at any level and not sigh if a warrior/warlock is on your team or know you're going to loose because there are 4 hunters and 5 rogues on the other team. I'd be ecstatic if the general gear level of people levelling would be brought on a similar level through more quest and PVP blues (Korette is absolutely right about that in my opinion.)
85 Tauren Death Knight
5650
04/08/2011 02:28Posted by Scerion
If you have an 85 on your account already, buy some heirlooms. It's not hard for anyone with even minimal brain activity


Interesting. Another post about heirloom, someone stated it was nothing less then fair for people with heirloom to own in bg's. Afterall, they did work hard for the gear. Hmmmm?

At lowlvl bg's 75%+ are rogues and hunters. Wonder why, well not really.

05/08/2011 03:44Posted by Scerion
Oh yeah, and the class you have there is awful in pvp at low level. Awful. You made a very bad choice.


What class is that? I really don't belive he can do lowlvl pvp on the toon he post from.

05/08/2011 03:44Posted by Scerion
Heirloom gear is nowhere near the level of twink gear (it's equiv. of blue gear).


Yes. And then it comes with a 10% stats buff. Don't forget that.

(only read the first 3 paragraphs - same old crap as usual) ...Here's the bullet-points that have been spelled out to all the other dozy sods posting this garbage:


There have to be a reason for you to flame posts like this, if you keep doing it. This "old crap" and "garbage", as you call it, seems to be a major problem, accorting to all the post and the countless reply's.

05/08/2011 03:44Posted by Scerion
Stop whining.


As I see it, it is you whining. And yes, Stop Whining.
Edited by Tullia on 12/08/2011 05:40 BST
85 Dwarf Paladin
7895
11/08/2011 20:33Posted by Korette
Its worth pointing out that blues are not only acquired through the potential RNG fest of dungeons. Both honour and quests reward blues. I would thoroughly support a move to introduce more blue quality gear in quests and pvp. There is a noticable lack of them in certain places and increasing the number would buff the pvp underdogs without significantly buffing heirloomers or the top end of gear. This coupled with scaled back heirlooms would be a very favourable outcome in my opinion and from what you've said would it be safe to hope that you would agree?


I'd support a move to introduce blue gear for every slot purchasable with honour points every xth level. Currently there isn't too much choice, but if you've got a character with heirlooms it's not really a problem, you can fill pretty much every slot not heirloomed with some blue gear. Obviously, scaling back heirlooms and giving PvP honour gear for all slots would make it fairer gearwise across the board. So, yes, I'd agree.

11/08/2011 20:33Posted by Korette
There is little differentiation between PvP and PvE for OP classes and specs. One that is OP in PvP will be OP in the other in general. Hunters, disc, paladins (holy and ret) and rogues all perform spectacularly well in both PvE and PvP while classes like warlocks and spriests struggle in both. There is the odd class like the warrior that better than average in PvE but underpowered in pvP, but they are the exception rather than the rule.


Point taken.

My point is that this problem hasn't stemmed from Blizzard not managing to get things right, it in fact stems from a complete lack of any balancing thought by Blizzard... ...There are other reasons for me to say that close to zero thought has gone into low level balance, but these are the main ones.


It almost seems like Blizzard have forget low level PvP exists. All the thought went into balance for questing and dungeons, and even then it's still not quite right. Certainly, Blizzard need to do something about low level PvP. It was perfectly fine pre 3.3.0 so I don't see why it couldn't be again.

Yes and no. utility is a major issue for low levels, but damage and healing values and efficiencies vary hugely between classes too... ...So yes, it is poor (or rather non existant) design but that in turn leads to overpowering. The main point I would like to make is that there is not one single root to the problem with low level balance. There are several prominent problems and fixing one will not work as a general solution because another one will take its place.


So, hopefully you will agree with me that unbalance in low level PvP has three main causes;
1) Gear, such as heirlooms being too powerful meaning other gear is too weak.
2) Imbalance between classes leading to some being too powerful and others too weak.
3) Variations in utility in classes leading to some being too powerful and others too weak.



This is most noticeable say levels 10-57 where the gear gap between players is huge... ...IF any balancing is going to happen below level 60, gear is a huge factor of it. Like I mentioned in my class overview there are a few exceptions like warriors and warlocks, who just have nothing useful below level 30.


Gear is a difficult factor to balance at low levels because there is no benchmark. It's not often you'll see two people in identical gear. Even people in heirlooms have some variations. That's why I'd argue for class balance taking priority because gear isn't feasible to fix.

Now I can't say much for the level 70 twink bracket, having never played in it...

...would love to see a game where you can join a battleground at any level and not sigh if a warrior/warlock is on your team or know you're going to loose because there are 4 hunters and 5 rogues on the other team. I'd be ecstatic if the general gear level of people levelling would be brought on a similar level through more quest and PVP blues (Korette is absolutely right about that in my opinion.)


As you don't play in the 70 twink bracket, it'd be pointless to carry on a discussion about it. Basically, in a few words, it's just like low level PvP but with resilience and more health.

I'd like to think that between you, me and Korette we'd reached some kind of consensus on the need for more blue PvP gear available during levelling. Currently, every 8th level starting at various points you can pick up some blue gear from vendors. This needs to be widened to include blue gear for every slot, in order to bring people up to par with heirlooms. Hopefully this blue gear wouldn't be better than heirlooms because there needs to be some incentive for people to use heirloom still as the xp bonus does not seem to work in PvP.

Edit: Had to cut down the quotes because of the character limit. And spelling mistakes.
Edited by Vesik on 12/08/2011 12:32 BST
85 Dwarf Paladin
7895
some time ago I became bored with my server and started an alliance warlock on a different server. Leveled from lv 1 picked my professions, got me some money then hit some instances for gearing up and finally at lv 23 or so entered BGs......

...and leveled to 72 without heirlooms or a full set of blues nor enchants. I died often and I wasnt the killing machine for sure. That didnt prevent me from playing smart or winning most of my BGs (at least it feels like I won most) and mostly.....

....HAVING FUN


I simply had to accept that some people who put more time and effort into their chars had advantages over me, I still managed to hit 72 have now equal gear to everybody else (without the gems and enchants I admit) and participating in PvP.

Whoever is whining about it....is just lazy or bad and not even trying.


Funny, this reminds me a little of my earlier post. Whilst I'd agree with you 100%, it's not exactly the most helpful solution, and the debate currently going on is not between new players, but between older players who still play low level PvP and think it's unbalanced. We don't think it's unbalanced because we suck or we're not enjoying it, we think the experience could be improved by some balacing.

Edit: Sorry for the double post, but I couldn't fit this in the first one.
Edited by Vesik on 12/08/2011 09:36 BST
Community
We are not deaf to the concerns raised about low-level PvP. We feel it needs some attention too.

03/08/2011 19:11Posted by Pogh
The Heirloom is only part of the problem though.
Yeah, we don't necessarily feel that it's all just "a heirloom issue," but more to do with time investments reaping rewards that give too great an advantage.

While we do agree that low-level PvP isn't in an ideal state and has needed further consideration, our focus has remained where the players are: max-level PvP.

We don't intend to throw oil on the flame by such a comment and this doesn't mean we're completely ignorant of niche playstyles, just that we focus our efforts on where it'll have the greatest effect.

What's the answer? We do hear the feedback. When we have looked at the issue, it has simply just seemed too difficult – too tricky – to resolve in a way that we're happy with.

We currently believe resolving it will require much time and effort. But we acknowledge things aren't as great for low-level PvP as they could be and we do have a desire to pay attention to it.
85 Dwarf Paladin
7895
We are not deaf to the concerns raised about low-level PvP. We feel it needs some attention too.

The Heirloom is only part of the problem though.
Yeah, we don't necessarily feel that it's all just "a heirloom issue," but more to do with time investments reaping rewards that give too great an advantage.

While we do agree that low-level PvP isn't in an ideal state and has needed further consideration, our focus has remained where the players are: max-level PvP.

We don't intend to throw oil on the flame by such a comment and this doesn't mean we're completely ignorant of niche playstyles, just that we focus our efforts on where it'll have the greatest effect.

What's the answer? We do hear the feedback. When we have looked at the issue, it has simply just seemed too difficult – too tricky – to resolve in a way that we're happy with.

We currently believe resolving it will require much time and effort. But we acknowledge things aren't as great for low-level PvP as they could be and we do have a desire to pay attention to it.


First off, wow, didn't expect a blue post here.

Second, I still think adding a lot more gear that's purchasable with honour for lower levels will go some way towards rectifying the issue. Althought it's not a fix, it might help to even the playing field. As far as my personal opinion is concerned, I'm happy enough with how low level PvP plays out and acknowledge the extreme difficulty in balancing such a huge game.

Good work, I say, hats off to you for the excellent job so far. :)

I'd say that just raised my skill in kiss-arsery.
86 Troll Druid
8070
We are not deaf to the concerns raised about low-level PvP. We feel it needs some attention too.

The Heirloom is only part of the problem though.
Yeah, we don't necessarily feel that it's all just "a heirloom issue," but more to do with time investments reaping rewards that give too great an advantage.

While we do agree that low-level PvP isn't in an ideal state and has needed further consideration, our focus has remained where the players are: max-level PvP.

We don't intend to throw oil on the flame by such a comment and this doesn't mean we're completely ignorant of niche playstyles, just that we focus our efforts on where it'll have the greatest effect.

What's the answer? We do hear the feedback. When we have looked at the issue, it has simply just seemed too difficult – too tricky – to resolve in a way that we're happy with.

We currently believe resolving it will require much time and effort. But we acknowledge things aren't as great for low-level PvP as they could be and we do have a desire to pay attention to it.



Read: nothing is going to happen.

Better skip low level pvp for now unless you're an heirloom geared hunter/rogue/<insert other ridiculously broken class/spec> for now, folks. And by "for now" I mean forever.

85 Human Death Knight
3955
We are not deaf to the concerns raised about low-level PvP. We feel it needs some attention too.

The Heirloom is only part of the problem though.
Yeah, we don't necessarily feel that it's all just "a heirloom issue," but more to do with time investments reaping rewards that give too great an advantage.

While we do agree that low-level PvP isn't in an ideal state and has needed further consideration, our focus has remained where the players are: max-level PvP.

We don't intend to throw oil on the flame by such a comment and this doesn't mean we're completely ignorant of niche playstyles, just that we focus our efforts on where it'll have the greatest effect.

What's the answer? We do hear the feedback. When we have looked at the issue, it has simply just seemed too difficult – too tricky – to resolve in a way that we're happy with.

We currently believe resolving it will require much time and effort. But we acknowledge things aren't as great for low-level PvP as they could be and we do have a desire to pay attention to it.


I think something needs to be done here.
I remember blue posts stating that a lot of new players stop to play the game in the early levels. Also you guys made the game free until lvl 20 so the new players have enough time to try out all the different parts of the game, but if a new player wants to try out the pvp part of this game and experiences all these issues, don't you think it's a little bit counterproductive?

i'm sorry for any language mistakes, i'm german ;)
19 Night Elf Druid
560
We are not deaf to the concerns raised about low-level PvP. We feel it needs some attention too.

The Heirloom is only part of the problem though.
Yeah, we don't necessarily feel that it's all just "a heirloom issue," but more to do with time investments reaping rewards that give too great an advantage.

While we do agree that low-level PvP isn't in an ideal state and has needed further consideration, our focus has remained where the players are: max-level PvP.

We don't intend to throw oil on the flame by such a comment and this doesn't mean we're completely ignorant of niche playstyles, just that we focus our efforts on where it'll have the greatest effect.

What's the answer? We do hear the feedback. When we have looked at the issue, it has simply just seemed too difficult – too tricky – to resolve in a way that we're happy with.

We currently believe resolving it will require much time and effort. But we acknowledge things aren't as great for low-level PvP as they could be and we do have a desire to pay attention to it.


Give me a designers tools and a private PTR and I'll do it for you free! Just saying.

Anyway, thank you for the blue response but I have one further question that would be really useful if it was answered.

- What exactly do the devs understand about low levels? If endgame were magically made 110% perfect what would they specifically tackle? When you say it "isn't in an ideal state" it seems to me that you are understating the problem and I am worried that when it comes to it that you might not realise everything that needs addressing.
Edited by Korette on 12/08/2011 13:05 BST
85 Draenei Warrior
1770
You can't expect Blizzard to balance PvE, PvP, Heirlooms and level scaling at the same time.


You reading this as a person is incapable of balancing this game. Understand that, before you whine about low level PvP.
What do you want blizzard to do?

They can't even balance level 85 PvP or give us the same rubbish reason
Blizzard lie to themselves all the time

low level PvP doesn't matter
I mean Blizzard know what they are doing

someone that is new to the game getting ruined in a BG = they will quit long before they touch 85.
blizzard simply doesn't care and why would they? Business ( disregard the number sub lost) is good.


90 Night Elf Hunter
19715
We are not deaf to the concerns raised about low-level PvP. We feel it needs some attention too.

The Heirloom is only part of the problem though.
Yeah, we don't necessarily feel that it's all just "a heirloom issue," but more to do with time investments reaping rewards that give too great an advantage.

While we do agree that low-level PvP isn't in an ideal state and has needed further consideration, our focus has remained where the players are: max-level PvP.

We don't intend to throw oil on the flame by such a comment and this doesn't mean we're completely ignorant of niche playstyles, just that we focus our efforts on where it'll have the greatest effect.

What's the answer? We do hear the feedback. When we have looked at the issue, it has simply just seemed too difficult – too tricky – to resolve in a way that we're happy with.

We currently believe resolving it will require much time and effort. But we acknowledge things aren't as great for low-level PvP as they could be and we do have a desire to pay attention to it.


The answer is very simple as ime sure lots of player will agree seperate PVP from PVE. When i say seperate i mean your abilitys work different in pvp then they do in pve. now i know blizz said they dont want to do this in the past but it will resolve a lot of porblems with both pvp and pve, and if u really do listen to the blayer base of this game u would change it
85 Dwarf Shaman
10355
What's the answer? We do hear the feedback. When we have looked at the issue, it has simply just seemed too difficult – too tricky – to resolve in a way that we're happy with.


One thing I could think of is to apply the "Mobs die slower"-idea of Cataclysm normal mobs to all levels. Let us (and the mobs!) have looots of HP.
82 Tauren Priest
1195
nice, a blue post. Somebody really has "*%%!!@#" to post in a topic like this hehehe but nice still.
72 Orc Warrior
1160
Imo rogues and druids shouldn't be allowed stealth in pvp, then all melee should be allowed their attacks to be ranged and all attacks normalised to 40 yards and to do a headshot which instantly kills your opponent, in the starting room perhaps there could be an armoury with rifles for everyone to take. Then it would be the same for some classes anyway but the more underpowered classes would be equal
85 Dwarf Paladin
7895
12/08/2011 13:21Posted by Manlyorcman
Imo rogues and druids shouldn't be allowed stealth in pvp, then all melee should be allowed their attacks to be ranged and all attacks normalised to 40 yards and to do a headshot which instantly kills your opponent, in the starting room perhaps there could be an armoury with rifles for everyone to take. Then it would be the same for some classes anyway but the more underpowered classes would be equal


Isn't that more commonly known as Call of Duty?
83 Night Elf Druid
6880
What I find intriguing is that no one mention that any normal guy who enters BGs at low level for fun probably have no head, neck, shoulder and trinket items. Even rings are quite scarce unless you already have a char with JC profession.

Give him a gear that is still half /* quarter as grey and such player has 1/3 less hp than any "heirloom / twinked" char.

That is quite a lot at levels where normal players have at most 500 - 600 hp!!! Twinked chars have 900+ hp!!!

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/mazrigos/Asonima/simple

This is my alt warrior, which is gathering dust for quite a while now. Still has no head and neck piece. Missing one ring and both trinkets! No blues as I haven't run any instance oh her.
Edited by Oathis on 12/08/2011 13:56 BST
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