Out of interest, how many sub 85 battlegrounds/arena are played compared to level 85 battlegrounds/arena? I have come up with estimations, but they use obviously flawed data. Any chance you could share that sort of data with us?
Balancing low level PVP is easy. All you have to do is move around the levels at which abilities are gained. People have already theory crafted this for you (Look on twinkinfo.com). At least try and make some changes rather than the 'its really not important' vibe that is coming across. Moving the levels at which abilities are gained will not affect your precious end game at all so what is the problem? You might actually end up with more new players sticking with wow as a result.
Why don't you just decrease damage done by (100-85+bracket)?
For level 10-14 this would be 71% damage reduction, 15-19 it would become 66% and so on.
I know it's a band aid fix, but better than nothing.
Anyway, if you aren't a rogue or hunter, you get pwned. Prot pallies are also very decent.
I know people who are terrible in pvp at lvl85, so they level a hunter, do bg's until lvl19, send looms to new hunter alt and start again. In that time they get wrecking ball achievement etc.
So your focus to balance at level 85 has the nasty side effect of people being bad at it, rerolling low level hunters/rogues. Just remove autoshoot while running for hunters. They only need it at lvl85 where the whole game is balanced, any melee that isn't a rogue just get shot in 2 sec without even having the chance to get in melee range of the hunter. Rogues are harder, but just nerfing the damage of white attacks would also be awesome.
It's just stupid that when you aren't a rogue or hunter you spend more time at gy then playing.
Also do people L2P the class who roll hunter or rogue in those brackets? I seriously doubt so... And then they start to whine at lvl85 how underpowered they are since they were always OP and for them that is the standard.
Or... Make seperate bg's for rogues and hunters.
All rogues, all stealth, great fun, will never end in a draw.
All hunters, well at least is fair.
I don't do bg's anymore while levelling. It's just stupid and totally not fun to get a shield thrown at you, be silenced and then get autoshot to death by a backpeddling hunter. Or trying to cap a flag and die in 1gcd by a rogue.
We don't ask for for a totally balanced low lvl pvp experience and there will be always brackets were some classes perform better. Atm it's who sees who first and attacks first, get stunned or silenced and it's game over.
Just reduce the damage of all classes by more than 50% so there might be a chance you survive the stun and recover from it.
Considering how much of a disaster this has become, responding to a low level pvp issue seems rather pointless. The issues being addressed by players are not random issues that suddenly appeared but were designed and implemented. Most here are aware your game engine can't handle complex PVP play but they at least want some accountability when it comes to why flaws are exagerated to ridiculous degrees.
Much of this has been discussed in PTR threads but players see little acknowledgement of feedback being taken into account.
As a an example the Blood Spec DK using the glyph of Dark Succor in Unholy Presence (something that was mentioned during public tests) being allowed to linger for so long when say 'Druids that shapeshift will now clear the Potion of Illusion buff' is hotfixed.
All we seem to see in terms of design and code is the equivalent of a small manic child weilding a hammer in a china shop.
Edited by Yasueh on 12/08/11 17:44 (BST)
First off, heirlooms:
While stats on heirlooms may be fine in dungeons as an added way to boost leveling speed, in addition to the XP bonus, the higher stats provide no benefit for leveling in BGs, as both sides will have players with heirlooms. In BGs they only serve to recreate the old twinked/not twinked divide that developers actually took the time to work on fixing.
Characters with heirlooms are undeniably twinks, as they take either a higher leveled character, or a considerable time investment to get onto a low level character.
Heirlooms' level with your character feature makes them well worth putting high level enchants on, where it would be stupid to enchant anything a first time leveller would work their way through with the same level of enchants, that will need replacing in just a few levels.
The are several possible ways to fix this:
Also the scaling of them at low levels is seriously off, if it is intended that they match the best gear available to a regular leveler (who has not locked their XP in order to farm gear that they won't level out of before a set is built).
For the lowest 30 levels the stats for them should be lower, to match at most 1 quality of gear over what first time players have access to. That means green when the first timer is in whites, and blues only when the first timer is in mostly greens.
Of course this should be in addition to having enchants restricted.
Levels 1-9 doesn't matter because there is no real grouping or PvP at those levels, where BoAs could be considered unfair, but as soon as people get access to BGs as first timers they are going to want to play them. You put features in the game that can be accessed at low levels, and people who are playing for the first time will want to explore all those features.
The developers' obsession with endgame, has resulted in the part of the game that decides whether a new player will continue to play after their trial, becoming a very poor experience of the game overall.
While low level BGs are nothing but a joke, dungeons too are far from appealing to someone who hasn't done them before, and isn't overgeared for them with heirlooms.
As somewone who spends a lot of time in dungeons up to level 20 I'm getting sick of seeing players kicked because they can't heal enough, or can't hold aggro, and it isn't half as much down to inexperience as it is down to heirloomed players pulling too much / never using CC because they're used to playing with overgeared heirloomed tanks and healers, and are doing more aggro than a non-heirloomed tank could ever hope to counter.
The first levels of the game are where new players should be able to learn how to play. They can't do this in either PvP or group PvE, thanks to heirloomed players completely outclassing them, and pushing them out. The only old time players who should be in BGs and dungeons with the newcomers are the ones who do actually want to help new players learn the game.
How would I have given long time players a bonus to levelling speed on their alts?
Not with superior gear.
I would have given a player a number of grantable levels per month that they could give to their low level characters. You could use the existing BoA mail restictions to implement it. Post a player a number of scrolls that grant a level, that are account bound, that they can give to an alt.
I'm sure a lot of players would appreciate being able to skip over certain parts of the levelling experience completely, while being able to take their time exploring others.
And if they didn't use all the scrolls they got? Let them trade them in for a mount.
I'm sorry, but you're talking out of your behind. You're basically saying that anything from 1-84 shouldn't be balanced because it's "niche"? So you're basically saying that people who have level 85s, aren't getting level 85 by leveling from 1->85?
Balance at ANY bracket while leveling up should have somewhat balance (not saying it can ever be perfect, but 1-hit..? Come on.) since every single player in this game, NO EXCEPTIONS have met other brackets than end-game, on their way to endgame. Athene and Swifty leveled some through battlegrounds and they did like 2 BGs and discovered that it was complete !@#$ because certain classes would simply be unstoppable.
So you're basically just ignoring PvPing as a leveling method for people in World of Warcraft? Fair enough, in which case I'd like to know why you'd waste your time implementing experience gain in battlegrounds, and even go as far as allowing people to turn their EXP off, if you in the end don't give a rats bum about PvPing at any other level than 85 anyway?
Your arguments are illogical and controversial and I don't believe for a second that the argument for not doing any adjustments (yes, it's hard to reduce overall dmg of abilities on certain classes by 30%) is because it's too hard and you're more concerned with "the main player base" (which btw this concerns all of as well).
That's my 10 cents, take it as you may - read it, don't read it - laugh at it, cry at it - do as you please.
Regardless of what you say or think, the entire game from 1-84 concerns everyone.
Even though the low level pvp is a bad first impression of the game's pvp (wich is quite balanced atm), low level playing experience is balanced around leveling and character's without heirlooms. + I leveled this character without heirlooms and still kicked !@# in pvp. I don't think Blizzard will change anything cause it's just way too hard to balance low level pve and pvp (and it isn't that necessary). Maybe Blizzard can change the level you need for certain spells but thats it.
Edited by Cielore on 12/08/11 16:38 (BST)
I have stopped playing the game at 85. It's not worth it to me.
I'm xp-locked at 60 since a week ago and having more fun than I've ever had at 85 (did MC once, got both Bindings, yay) - but there are a few clouds in the sky. The complete lack of PvP balance for one thing, burst is out of control. The removal of content is worse, however. How can Blizzard think it's okay to remove content from the game when we still pay the full price for the game/expansion it is featured in? I will sorely miss Zul'Gurub and Naxxramas, and there is now exactly ONE dungeon left at level 60, Blackrock Spire.
Edit: Also, it is made worse by the promise - yes, promise - by Blizzard that when they added the XP-lock feature, it would be a good thing for twinks and people who play at lower levels, as that playstyle would now be officially supported. It is clear that it is not.
Of course he is. Blizzard have the real numbers you do not have. You as a player can only make assumptions based on the little sub-world surrounding you.
Let's get real. The VAST majority of players level via quests in WoW. Not only it's much faster, but it also brings an amount of wealth (gold) you can't live without in this game. I personally don't think Blizzard should cater to the 3 button pushers who stick to low level BGs without even having all their class key skills.
Well that is exactly why I asked my question in the first place, you seem to be implying the same thing, people who stick to low lvl bgs are a niche, people who do bgs as a part of their levelling experience are not.
It is nice that you respond and your reply is hopeful too.
But if we sit down a bit and become honest, can you say that developers have done anything major at all to prove your statement?
I can not, if Im wrong then enlighten me.
Edited by Manlyorcman on 12/08/11 17:29 (BST)
for pve as well though the damage is too high, have you tried a warlock in any instance? as soon as you put one dot up the target is dead, I'd say 80% damage reduction would be great for all pvp in the game but personally I think even better would be to do this by reducing damage and healing on abilities as well as resilience.
Just say reduce all damage by 50% for players, npcs and bosses. Reduce all healing by 50%. Allow a resilience cap for a further 50% damage reduction. Then tweak where necessary to find the right balance. Allow resilience for low lvls from pvp quest gear that is better for pvp than heirlooms.
I count this for max lvl as well as lower lvls
It is nice that you respond and your reply is hopeful too.
You're not wrong. Unfortunately, this wouldn't be the forum to post it on - for this to mean anything, it'd have to be posted on the US forums, sad as it is. :/
Then start doing something about it! There isn't a 'slight' imbalance, but most of the very low level brackets are completely broken and there's no point in participating in them at all unless you're playing one of the broken classes.
I understand and appreciate that you have limited resources, but I also think it's ridiculous that you'll leave part of the game broken while it really isn't that much effort to fix it. Players have contributed plenty of balance fix solutions, yet you keep ignoring them. It makes you as a company look really greedy and it doesn't seem as if you care about this part of the game.
Secondly, abilitys and levels:
It's simple. Some classes need abilities earlier, and some don't need them as soon as they're getting them.
Saying that it would break PvE to give some classes abilities later is just a joke, considering how ridiculously overpowered all classes are in levelling content (even without heirlooms), and with low level PvP balance beyond a joke, it's not like you can make things any worse by trying.
These are the priority:
You've said that you care for low level players, but to be fair, looking at what abilities you've given to hunters at low levels, it looks a lot more like you've given low level PvP no consideration at all.
There is a very big difference between caring about something enough to admit it's a problem, and caring enough to actually do something about it. Since Cata, all I've seen is talk that says 'We care', but actions that say 'We CBA'.