World of Warcraft®

12/08/2011 15:49Posted by Wryxian

I don't mean to twist your words and I understand that the cynical assumption I'm about to make is probably not what you meant - But can we please just clarify that this has very little to do with 'niche playstyles'.

Your demeanor is appreciated. That particular choice of words is meant to be a description of a group of people and a playing style not representative of the majority of the PvP playerbase, which reside in the max level.

Out of interest, how many sub 85 battlegrounds/arena are played compared to level 85 battlegrounds/arena? I have come up with estimations, but they use obviously flawed data. Any chance you could share that sort of data with us?

Balancing low level PVP is easy. All you have to do is move around the levels at which abilities are gained. People have already theory crafted this for you (Look on twinkinfo.com). At least try and make some changes rather than the 'its really not important' vibe that is coming across. Moving the levels at which abilities are gained will not affect your precious end game at all so what is the problem? You might actually end up with more new players sticking with wow as a result.

Why don't you just decrease damage done by (100-85+bracket)?

For level 10-14 this would be 71% damage reduction, 15-19 it would become 66% and so on.
I know it's a band aid fix, but better than nothing.

Anyway, if you aren't a rogue or hunter, you get pwned. Prot pallies are also very decent.

I know people who are terrible in pvp at lvl85, so they level a hunter, do bg's until lvl19, send looms to new hunter alt and start again. In that time they get wrecking ball achievement etc.

So your focus to balance at level 85 has the nasty side effect of people being bad at it, rerolling low level hunters/rogues. Just remove autoshoot while running for hunters. They only need it at lvl85 where the whole game is balanced, any melee that isn't a rogue just get shot in 2 sec without even having the chance to get in melee range of the hunter. Rogues are harder, but just nerfing the damage of white attacks would also be awesome.

It's just stupid that when you aren't a rogue or hunter you spend more time at gy then playing.

Also do people L2P the class who roll hunter or rogue in those brackets? I seriously doubt so... And then they start to whine at lvl85 how underpowered they are since they were always OP and for them that is the standard.

Or... Make seperate bg's for rogues and hunters.

All rogues, all stealth, great fun, will never end in a draw.
All hunters, well at least is fair.

I don't do bg's anymore while levelling. It's just stupid and totally not fun to get a shield thrown at you, be silenced and then get autoshot to death by a backpeddling hunter. Or trying to cap a flag and die in 1gcd by a rogue.

We don't ask for for a totally balanced low lvl pvp experience and there will be always brackets were some classes perform better. Atm it's who sees who first and attacks first, get stunned or silenced and it's game over.

Just reduce the damage of all classes by more than 50% so there might be a chance you survive the stun and recover from it.

12/08/2011 15:35Posted by Wryxian

That's a misinterpretation. We are quite prepared to attend to difficult issues, and we are doing exactly that for max-level PvP, as that's where the player focus is.

Considering how much of a disaster this has become, responding to a low level pvp issue seems rather pointless. The issues being addressed by players are not random issues that suddenly appeared but were designed and implemented. Most here are aware your game engine can't handle complex PVP play but they at least want some accountability when it comes to why flaws are exagerated to ridiculous degrees.

Much of this has been discussed in PTR threads but players see little acknowledgement of feedback being taken into account.

As a an example the Blood Spec DK using the glyph of Dark Succor in Unholy Presence (something that was mentioned during public tests) being allowed to linger for so long when say 'Druids that shapeshift will now clear the Potion of Illusion buff' is hotfixed.

All we seem to see in terms of design and code is the equivalent of a small manic child weilding a hammer in a china shop.

First off, heirlooms:

While stats on heirlooms may be fine in dungeons as an added way to boost leveling speed, in addition to the XP bonus, the higher stats provide no benefit for leveling in BGs, as both sides will have players with heirlooms. In BGs they only serve to recreate the old twinked/not twinked divide that developers actually took the time to work on fixing.

Characters with heirlooms are undeniably twinks, as they take either a higher leveled character, or a considerable time investment to get onto a low level character.

Heirlooms' level with your character feature makes them well worth putting high level enchants on, where it would be stupid to enchant anything a first time leveller would work their way through with the same level of enchants, that will need replacing in just a few levels.

The are several possible ways to fix this:

• Make heirlooms unenchantable, and deactivate any enchants they have on them currently.
• Make the enchants on heirlooms only work if a character of the level wearing them could learn and apply the enchant.
• Scale the enchants along with the rest of the stats.

It being a lot of work to make a very effective fix is a very poor excuse, when the first two of those would actually take very little work.

Also the scaling of them at low levels is seriously off, if it is intended that they match the best gear available to a regular leveler (who has not locked their XP in order to farm gear that they won't level out of before a set is built).

For the lowest 30 levels the stats for them should be lower, to match at most 1 quality of gear over what first time players have access to. That means green when the first timer is in whites, and blues only when the first timer is in mostly greens.

Of course this should be in addition to having enchants restricted.

Levels 1-9 doesn't matter because there is no real grouping or PvP at those levels, where BoAs could be considered unfair, but as soon as people get access to BGs as first timers they are going to want to play them. You put features in the game that can be accessed at low levels, and people who are playing for the first time will want to explore all those features.

The developers' obsession with endgame, has resulted in the part of the game that decides whether a new player will continue to play after their trial, becoming a very poor experience of the game overall.

While low level BGs are nothing but a joke, dungeons too are far from appealing to someone who hasn't done them before, and isn't overgeared for them with heirlooms.

As somewone who spends a lot of time in dungeons up to level 20 I'm getting sick of seeing players kicked because they can't heal enough, or can't hold aggro, and it isn't half as much down to inexperience as it is down to heirloomed players pulling too much / never using CC because they're used to playing with overgeared heirloomed tanks and healers, and are doing more aggro than a non-heirloomed tank could ever hope to counter.

The first levels of the game are where new players should be able to learn how to play. They can't do this in either PvP or group PvE, thanks to heirloomed players completely outclassing them, and pushing them out. The only old time players who should be in BGs and dungeons with the newcomers are the ones who do actually want to help new players learn the game.


How would I have given long time players a bonus to levelling speed on their alts?

Not with superior gear.

I would have given a player a number of grantable levels per month that they could give to their low level characters. You could use the existing BoA mail restictions to implement it. Post a player a number of scrolls that grant a level, that are account bound, that they can give to an alt.

I'm sure a lot of players would appreciate being able to skip over certain parts of the levelling experience completely, while being able to take their time exploring others.

And if they didn't use all the scrolls they got? Let them trade them in for a mount.

@Wryxian

I'm sorry, but you're talking out of your behind. You're basically saying that anything from 1-84 shouldn't be balanced because it's "niche"? So you're basically saying that people who have level 85s, aren't getting level 85 by leveling from 1->85?

Balance at ANY bracket while leveling up should have somewhat balance (not saying it can ever be perfect, but 1-hit..? Come on.) since every single player in this game, NO EXCEPTIONS have met other brackets than end-game, on their way to endgame. Athene and Swifty leveled some through battlegrounds and they did like 2 BGs and discovered that it was complete !@#$ because certain classes would simply be unstoppable.

So you're basically just ignoring PvPing as a leveling method for people in World of Warcraft? Fair enough, in which case I'd like to know why you'd waste your time implementing experience gain in battlegrounds, and even go as far as allowing people to turn their EXP off, if you in the end don't give a rats bum about PvPing at any other level than 85 anyway?

Your arguments are illogical and controversial and I don't believe for a second that the argument for not doing any adjustments (yes, it's hard to reduce overall dmg of abilities on certain classes by 30%) is because it's too hard and you're more concerned with "the main player base" (which btw this concerns all of as well).

That's my 10 cents, take it as you may - read it, don't read it - laugh at it, cry at it - do as you please.

Regardless of what you say or think, the entire game from 1-84 concerns everyone.

/thread.

Blizzard doesn't focus on balancing low level bgs, that's nothing new.

Even though the low level pvp is a bad first impression of the game's pvp (wich is quite balanced atm), low level playing experience is balanced around leveling and character's without heirlooms. + I leveled this character without heirlooms and still kicked !@# in pvp. I don't think Blizzard will change anything cause it's just way too hard to balance low level pve and pvp (and it isn't that necessary). Maybe Blizzard can change the level you need for certain spells but thats it.

I have stopped playing the game at 85. It's not worth it to me.

I'm xp-locked at 60 since a week ago and having more fun than I've ever had at 85 (did MC once, got both Bindings, yay) - but there are a few clouds in the sky. The complete lack of PvP balance for one thing, burst is out of control. The removal of content is worse, however. How can Blizzard think it's okay to remove content from the game when we still pay the full price for the game/expansion it is featured in? I will sorely miss Zul'Gurub and Naxxramas, and there is now exactly ONE dungeon left at level 60, Blackrock Spire.

Edit: Also, it is made worse by the promise - yes, promise - by Blizzard that when they added the XP-lock feature, it would be a good thing for twinks and people who play at lower levels, as that playstyle would now be officially supported. It is clear that it is not.

12/08/2011 16:27Posted by Tayen

Blizzard doesn't focus on balancing low level bgs, that's nothing new.

yeah but in Cataclysm they have actually focused on making it worse lol

12/08/2011 15:55Posted by Manlyorcman

Is this not taking into consideration that people like to bg whilst levelling?

Of course he is. Blizzard have the real numbers you do not have. You as a player can only make assumptions based on the little sub-world surrounding you.

Let's get real. The VAST majority of players level via quests in WoW. Not only it's much faster, but it also brings an amount of wealth (gold) you can't live without in this game. I personally don't think Blizzard should cater to the 3 button pushers who stick to low level BGs without even having all their class key skills.

12/08/2011 17:01Posted by Marban

Is this not taking into consideration that people like to bg whilst levelling?

Of course he is. Blizzard have the real numbers you do not have. You as a player can only make assumptions based on the little sub-world surrounding you.

Let's get real. The VAST majority of players level via quests in WoW. Not only it's much faster, but it also brings an amount of wealth (gold) you can't live without in this game. I personally don't think Blizzard should cater to the 3 button pushers who stick to low level BGs without even having all their class key skills.

Well that is exactly why I asked my question in the first place, you seem to be implying the same thing, people who stick to low lvl bgs are a niche, people who do bgs as a part of their levelling experience are not.

So a good question to ask would be what % of players enter a bg before lvl 85

The solution for the retarded state of low lvl pvp is easy,characters up to lvl 79 have a fixed resilience of 80%.Job done

12/08/2011 12:16Posted by Wryxian

We are not deaf to the concerns raised about low-level PvP. We feel it needs some attention too.

It is nice that you respond and your reply is hopeful too.
But if we sit down a bit and become honest, can you say that developers have done anything major at all to prove your statement?

I can not, if Im wrong then enlighten me.

12/08/2011 17:21Posted by Atenza

The solution for the retarded state of low lvl pvp is easy,characters up to lvl 79 have a fixed resilience of 80%.Job done

for pve as well though the damage is too high, have you tried a warlock in any instance? as soon as you put one dot up the target is dead, I'd say 80% damage reduction would be great for all pvp in the game but personally I think even better would be to do this by reducing damage and healing on abilities as well as resilience.

Just say reduce all damage by 50% for players, npcs and bosses. Reduce all healing by 50%. Allow a resilience cap for a further 50% damage reduction. Then tweak where necessary to find the right balance. Allow resilience for low lvls from pvp quest gear that is better for pvp than heirlooms.

I count this for max lvl as well as lower lvls

It is nice that you respond and your reply is hopeful too.
But if we sit down a bit and become honest, can you say that developers have done anything major at all to prove your statement?

I can not, if Im wrong then enlighten me.

You're not wrong. Unfortunately, this wouldn't be the forum to post it on - for this to mean anything, it'd have to be posted on the US forums, sad as it is. :/

12/08/2011 15:35Posted by Wryxian

We are aware of the issues in the low-levels and we do want to address them.

Then start doing something about it! There isn't a 'slight' imbalance, but most of the very low level brackets are completely broken and there's no point in participating in them at all unless you're playing one of the broken classes.

I understand and appreciate that you have limited resources, but I also think it's ridiculous that you'll leave part of the game broken while it really isn't that much effort to fix it. Players have contributed plenty of balance fix solutions, yet you keep ignoring them. It makes you as a company look really greedy and it doesn't seem as if you care about this part of the game.

Secondly, abilitys and levels:

It's simple. Some classes need abilities earlier, and some don't need them as soon as they're getting them.

Saying that it would break PvE to give some classes abilities later is just a joke, considering how ridiculously overpowered all classes are in levelling content (even without heirlooms), and with low level PvP balance beyond a joke, it's not like you can make things any worse by trying.

These are the priority:

• Warriors - Need a slow earlier. Moving Hamstring up to level 26 was, with all due respect, a damn retarded idea on a melee only class that has to wait until level 50 to get a reliable distance closer.


• Warlocks - Need their pet abilities earlier, to match what hunters are getting at level 20, and could do with a little more survivability as a cloth wearer that's lacking in CC/slows and which has very limited self healing.
  
  For Affliction I'd change the talent locations to Doom and Gloom/Soul Siphon/Improved Corruption in tier 1, Jinx/Siphon Life/Improved Life Tap in tier 2. That would at least give low level afflocks slightly better self healing. If it turned out they had a lot more damage at low levels from the boosted drains, swap Doom and Gloom and Improved Life Tap around.
  
  Demo could probably get by on it's higher stam, if pet abilities were given earlier, although swapping Fel Synergy and Master Summoner would allow the warlock to make better use of their pets (and being able to resummon/summon the most appropriate pet would make up for not passively healing the pet until later).
  
  Destro needs stuns to go with it's burst from the start. Swap the Improved Immolate and Aftermath talents.


• Hunters - Certainly don't need all the abilities they have at low levels until much later, when the class actually becomes weaker in PvP. You've said you don't want any class to be a hard counter for another at endgame. At low levels the hunter is a very clear hard counter against at least warlocks and warriors, and even the worst played hunters can still give any other class a hard time.
  
  This is the most broken class in the game at low levels, due to being retardedly overpowered (no respect due here at all). Low level BGs are seeing stupid amounts of hunters, because there is nothing else that can effectively counter them, besides perhaps rogues (who can at least get in an ambush and perhaps crippling poison before having the hunter disengage and kill them).
  
  Concussive shot is just plain stupid. It's an instant, no resource required snare with a 35 yard range, and 120% uptime (6s duration/5s CD). OK people can trinket it, but what use are trinkets against an ability like this? All the features of the ability are definitely not needed in PvE, so either make it expensive in focus, or put the cooldown back up higher than the duration. If you want it like it is at endgame put the changes in talents or a passive ability.
  
  Several of the hunter's other slow/stun/distance keeper abilities could be moved up several levels without it making them weak in either PvE or PvP. You can't argue that the talents wouldn't make sense if they were for abilities that the hunter has yet to learn, because the entire 2nd tier of the survival tree affects traps, when the first, Immolation Trap (whose single t2 talent has no other use), isn't even learned until you've got 2 points in tier 2, and the 2nd, Freezing trap, until you have 4 points in tier 2. It's things like that, that give the impression Cata was a rush job.
  
  In addition to fixing concussive shot, move some out of disengage/scatter shot/wing clip up a bit, and move the traps down a little. In fact get rid of wing clip completely, it's not like it's even needed with concussive shot's stupid CD/duration along with disengage and scatter shot's low CDs.
  
  Hunters do not need to be able to kite/avoid melee 100% of the time.

You've said that you care for low level players, but to be fair, looking at what abilities you've given to hunters at low levels, it looks a lot more like you've given low level PvP no consideration at all.

There is a very big difference between caring about something enough to admit it's a problem, and caring enough to actually do something about it. Since Cata, all I've seen is talk that says 'We care', but actions that say 'We CBA'.