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10/08/2011 10:06Posted by Lotek

There is really no doubt that H-HoR outperforms all but both versions of the Vessel of Acceleration and H-Apparatus.

Thank you for your excellent sources, and thorough proof of your recent statement!
Now can you please expand on what you just said, and enlighten the rest of us, as to exactly why you believe H-HoR is so good?

10/08/2011 10:06Posted by Lotek

There is really no doubt that H-HoR outperforms all but both versions of the Vessel of Acceleration and H-Apparatus.

As I mentioned in a previous post I do believe that this may be possible but in the current tier, especially on heroic encounters, your overall dps throughout the fight isn't all as important as having a burst when it's needed. First things that spring to mind are the add phases on ragnaros, the burst phase on alysrazor and ryolith phase 2. HoR might be better at sustained damage (though I severely doubt it will beat heroic apparatus even there) but in the end we play the game in practise, not in some perfect simulation with patchwerk bosses all over the place.

While by no means I mean to disrespect Landsoul, your claims can be compared to the tanks which copycatted Kungen back in the tbc days without checking any of the theorycrafting behind it, even though Kungen was incredibly badly itemised at some point in history.

Believe me, the last thing I do is copycat Landsoul. He and I disagree on many things, however in this case he, and the many others who do not just theorycraft on what is necessary for these heroic encounters but actually do them, is right.

Taking your example; what is it about H-Alysrazors burn phase that you find makes "burst when you need it" necessary? Do you believe that if Apparatus is say 300dps better than HoR when used during burnout on that encounter, it's proper use at those exact times in the fight is going to make some magical difference to your raids success? Will you, by yourself, making only that change, turn a 3 burnout Alys into a 2 burnout Alys?

I would guess not.

I think when you say "having burst when it's needed", what you mean to say is "having burst available when it has the greatest potential to deal damage", which is a totally fine argument, but it changes the argument from one seemingly concerned with the success of the team back into one concerned with doing the most personal damage, and when you remove the success of the team element the argument loses its merit because it simply is less damage.

Taking your example; what is it about H-Alysrazors burn phase that you find makes "burst when you need it" necessary? Do you believe that if Apparatus is say 300dps better than HoR when used during burnout on that encounter, it's proper use at those exact times in the fight is going to make some magical difference to your raids success? Will you, by yourself, making only that change, turn a 3 burnout Alys into a 2 burnout Alys?

These statements are quite irrelevent as you can say the same thing to over 9 trillion other things.

-Is it useful for a tank to maximise dps?
-Is it useful for a healer to do minor damage when no healing is needed and mana isn't an issue?
-Is it useful to gem strenght instead of crit as the difference isn't enough to make a huge difference overall seen in a 25 man raid?
-Is it useful to reforge items for the same reason?
-Is it useful to get a spec that's 100% perfect for the same reason?
-Is it useful to theorycraft about minor tips and tricks in order to maximise damage as it's impact on the overall raid (especially on 25 man) is minimal?
-Is it ...

I think you get the point. You simply can't use that as an argument.

I think when you say "having burst when it's needed", what you mean to say is "having burst available when it has the greatest potential to deal damage", which is a totally fine argument, but it changes the argument from one seemingly concerned with the success of the team back into one concerned with doing the most personal damage, and when you remove the success of the team element the argument loses its merit because it simply is less damage.

Actually the bursts that I was talking about aren't meant to maximise your personal damage overall in the fight (even though in some case that is also to case), but to have maximum raid damage output on demand, which is done through burst cooldowns. In these situations Apparatus more than outshines HoR. An example to show that I wasn't talking about personal dps is using the trinket on the fire adds at ragnaros. That's absolutely not going to affect your place on the meter. If you want to top the meters but fail to contribute when it's really needed you want to keep apparatus off cooldown and use it on the first and 3rd fire seeds (or well in our case we only get 2 these days).

On baleroc I can imagine that HoR theoretically beats Apparatus (I still have to see proper maths on that though as popping Apparatus at the right time, which is when you're taking a crystal, is extremely hard to implement in a simulation) and perhaps the same for staghelm (but in that scenario you'd have to calculate an apparatus use when there's 2 images up, which is even more semi-impossible to simcraft).

The reason imo why HoR looks better in theory is because it's almost 100% simmable, while for Apparatus is extremely hard to predict it's damage. On the field though Apparatus has more "value" for the raid on atleast 4 out of 7 encounters.

I'm not even mentioning the fact here that HoR can proc on extremely useless moments like the end of a phase transition on ragnaros, the moment alysrazor flies back up, the moment you jump down on beth'ilac, right before you get stunned on majordomo, .....

Reptile is being bashed by a low lvl lolol.

Inb4 I switch to posting on Sarcofaghond.

Lovely guide! Truely deserved the sticky, even though that will increase the chance that any TG warrior reads this! :(

These statements are quite irrelevent as you can say the same thing to over 9 trillion other things.

-Is it useful for a tank to maximise dps?
-Is it useful for a healer to do minor damage when no healing is needed and mana isn't an issue?
-Is it useful to gem strenght instead of crit as the difference isn't enough to make a huge difference overall seen in a 25 man raid?
-Is it useful to reforge items for the same reason?
-Is it useful to get a spec that's 100% perfect for the same reason?
-Is it useful to theorycraft about minor tips and tricks in order to maximise damage as it's impact on the overall raid (especially on 25 man) is minimal?
-Is it ...

I think you get the point. You simply can't use that as an argument.

You absolutely can say the same thing. The difference is in what you try to claim. Obviously gemming crit is a dps loss, obviously reforging items is a dps gain, etc etc, but these gains and losses apply indiscriminately, throughout the encounter. The claim you try to make, however, when you argue for Apparatus, is to say that the ability to decide when to use it (at the times you listed, for example) increases its value above and beyond what it otherwise would be. My counter argument is that when it comes to choosing 1 piece over another, that is a poor standard to judge by.

For example; I see you spec 2/2 booming voice, probably because it is theorycrafted as the most efficient way to manage the 4pc bonus. Why, following your logic that dictates sacrifices for DPS maxxing at the appropriate times, do you not spec 0/2? On Alysrazor you would use 1 Battle Shout for 12 seconds of Burning Rage, as opposed to 1 Battle Shout for 6 seconds. On Ragnaros sons, the same would be true again.

The reason you don't do it is that DPS decisions are, in all but very rare cases (cases which usually apply raid wide), just not made that way.

10/08/2011 17:25Posted by Cayote

Reptile is being bashed by a low lvl lolol.

My glorious Euro toon is still a low level, but that does not mean all my toons are!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/doomhammer/Lotek/simple

For example; I see you spec 2/2 booming voice, probably because it is theorycrafted as the most efficient way to manage the 4pc bonus. Why, following your logic that dictates sacrifices for DPS maxxing at the appropriate times, do you not spec 0/2? On Alysrazor you would use 1 Battle Shout for 12 seconds of Burning Rage, as opposed to 1 Battle Shout for 6 seconds. On Ragnaros sons, the same would be true again.

The reason you don't do it is that DPS decisions are, in all but very rare cases (cases which usually apply raid wide), just not made that way.

I spec 2/2 booming voice for the simple reason to have full rage at the start of every fight. According to landsoul 1/2 "feels the best" to play with and this may be true in his personal case but for me it isn't at all.

As we'll most likely start having proper tries on alysrazor this Sunday I'll probably take your advice and spec 0/2 on that fight. On ragnaros sons however you can very rarely DPS continuously for 12 seconds, let alone 6 seconds.

Speccing differently is however not entirely comparable when just "clearing" the instance as changing your spec to the optimal one is going to cost a ridiculous amount of time compared to swapping a trinket.

Also, you really have a caring and supportive guild, mate.

Cayote is mad because he needs over 9000 hunters (and salvatiadins) in the raid to hold aggro.

nice timing,just when i respecced my prot to smf

thanks

brb then

Nice guide Reptile , might consider respecing into SMF after all...

Anyways thanks for sharing this with us

Cheers :)

LOL! Reptile is serious, wat is dis i dont even...

Son, I am cereal.

Too bad your button spamming skills are subpar to your theorycrafting.

14/08/2011 16:17Posted by Cayote

Too bad your button spamming skills are subpar to your theorycrafting.

Tonight is gonna be fun.