Topic
(Sticky)
fencer's PvP guide (combat)
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Edited by Dagins on 03/03/12 19:07 (UTC)
Hello taffers!
I will try to bypass obvious things that everybody knows, so it might be not newbie friendly. The guide is based around my own experience since the very beginning of Cataclysm and also some other guides found somewhere. The reason I write the guide is simple. Some people are asking about it and I don't agree with few points of Celinne on US forum. Remember - if you want to achieve maximum performance, stick to subtlety. Still, combat is rewarding to play, fun and underestimated in many cases (nobody really knows how to counter it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uvm3GixEj4 ). PS: guide dead, no more updates or feedback. 1. Main thoughts. Crowd control: You must understand how to CC people, not blindly use 9 sec kidney shots, 6 sec gouges and 3 sec kicks whenever they are out of cooldown, because wrong timed CC kills this spec. CC management is your most important job to do, so you must download addon that tracks diminishing returns. Don't try to play without it. Bad CC example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaORknS1Dk&NR=1 Damage: Majority of your damage will come from auto-attack white hits and poisons, so better for you to buff it as much as you can. It's easy to understand, that your main damaging finishing move will be talented and glyphed Slice and Dice. It gives extra energy from OH hits and the best DPS. But you must be close to your target, so keep pressure in melee range whenever you can. You should use double wound poisons for extra magic damage (optional - mind-numbing on OH) that penetrates armor and crippling on thrown weapon to snare from 40 yard range. About adrenaline rush - this ability allows you to kill anybody solo, even healers, but if you waste it, be prepared to wait out next 3 minutes. Use it as an execution move with kidney shot, not when your target is healthy and running around. Damage and CC mix presentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhRUe-gz690&NR=1 Survivability: Like in other specs, you have to keep recuperate up all the time. When fighting a casting class, always keep at least 1 CP before losing melee contact - deadly throw interrupt will save you from taking big chunk of damage, interrupt CC or simply block opponent's healing. Try not to use sprint in stealth to come closer to your target, since it's a vital survivability tool. And the most important thing around here - Killing Spree - remember this part well. In 80% cases you shoudn't use it for damage, but for breaking snares, roots and block CC like instant fears, stuns or disorients(blinds). So, when you see an enraged priest or warrior running at you, use Killing Spree instead of CoS. It will serve you like old vanish protecting from these death coils. If you can't understand the meaning of it, don't play combat in PvP. Example of bad and good survivability: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K8_jgiNqUc Sum up: You will have higher DPS that subtlety and slighty better movement than assassination. Be ready to use finishers without full 5 CP bars, because you will have problem with CP regeneration. CPs are like water on a desert - spare them and manage wisely, or die. Your role in team is obvious - CC multiple enemies at the same time with kicks, gouges, kidney shots and also blade twisting. This is probably the highest passive form of CC in this game, which also cannot be dispelled. Also, you are something like a tank rogue, but it doesn't mean you are indestructible. Learn to step back in critical situations and stop tanking too much damage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvs5pqf-DMA&feature=relmfu 2. Specs, talents, glyphs, etc. Balanced spec: I will show you the most balanced combat spec made by me (watch glyphs). http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#cc01!Z!SkSSeShdjd!aj!cUgRjQPlN The only option here is to move out from reinforced leather and coup de grace. For now. Keep in mind, that I experiment with build and stats a lot. The only current build is in my character page. Talents: So, I didn't pick Savage Combat, because it's bugged and keeps disappearing with double wound poison set. Otherwise, I would drop Reinforced leather for it. - Restless blades is mainly for PvE, since it doesn't work with SnD, recup, kidney shot - your main finishing moves. - Relentless strikes stacks well with Combat Potency and is a must talent for damage and control. - Lethality is a total junk, many bad combat rogues pick it, which is a fatal mistake. - Coup de grace is just weak, you rarely use eviscerate. - Reinforced leather is also weak, but better choice than anything else at the moment. - Lightning reflexes can be dropped for 1 point, but extra dodge may save your life sometimes. Any other talent in combat tree should be obvious for you. |
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Edited by Dagins on 22/09/11 15:30 (UTC)
Glyphs:
Sinister strike, revealing strike and SnD, eventually switch RS with adrenaline rush for more burst. Glyph of crippling poison is very handy for ranged snare and may save your life, gouge is insanely useful, sprint aswell. Glyph of blade flurry seems nice, but the ability itself is a junk in PvP and you would use it only during Killing Spree, so avoid it. Blind is weak, but optional. Cloak of shadows is also a good option. Glyph of kick is a joke. Other specs: You can go for quickening or blackjack, but it can work only in duels and maybe some arena setups. 3. Stats, reforges, etc. You have to mix stats for combat PvP. Primary: - You must get at least 5% expertise, no matter what, you can even go slighty higher to ~7% if you struggle against other rogues and plate DPS like warriors, DKs and rets. - Hit rating is also a very important stat, since it boost all other stats you have. I recommend to have it ~200 points higher than secondary stat (or about the same), but stop adding it at about 16%, when it loses it's effectiveness. Secondary: - Mastery is great when you need extra burst during Adrenaline Rush and Killing Spree ( 1 or 2 extra hits means 16-33% damage buff!). It has some nuke power and with a bit of luck (chained procs), destroys. - Haste just adds more static damage, less risky than mastery. - Crit rating is the worst DPS stat you can ever get. - Parry and dodge is a mystery for me, a little tests. Gem for pure agility if possible, agility/hit, agility/mastery or agility/haste. PS: I like to experiment here, so I may modify this part frequently. To be honest, I still doubt which stat set is the most profitable. Enchants: The best enchant seems to be Avalanche, as it ignores armor and procs instantly. Landslide and hurricane can be easly wasted in roots and snares. On cloak, grab spell penetration enchant. 4. Arena, battlegrounds, etc. The best is to figure out your own strategy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5FU0ZMRB_Q In arena 2vs2 I recommend playing with a healer. But if you want to play with a DPS, change some talent points, go for blackjack and just CC talents, you don't have to buff damage output too much. Still, balanced spec can work here. In 3vs3 you can go anything that works. The best tactic seems to be spreading with your DPS partner, so both of you attack different targets. Sudden switches after 9 sec kidney shots and, then 3 sec silence + 6 sec gouge on healer should do the trick. Eventually, your target will get mad from endless CC and start making stupid mistakes, like popping defensive cooldowns. Finish him with your partner. In 5vs5 you can just use 9 sec kidney shot to kill any healer. Just tell your team not to use any other stuns on focused target. On battlegrounds, just do the rogue job (backdoor) and follow the rules explained above. 5. Bro's tips and tricks: - Use 1-2 CP Slice and Dice while talented and glyphed, don't waste more CPs on it. - Use gouge when enemy shields himself. It won't break until you pierce the shield itself, it's like mini kidney shot. - Before bursting with killing spree, collect 5 CP for eviscerate - more power. - Sometimes use deadly throw in melee range to interrupt some vital casting. It can finish off your opponent or save you from CC. - Use Throw with crippling poison to chase people on mounts or get back to melee range while fighting a kiter - it has 40 yard range and about 90% chance to slow opponent. - Try not to open with openers (I know, lol) on your main target. Cheap shot sets your diminishing returns on stuns, making next kidney shot less effective, garrote breaks gouge and does the same thing, but with silence on kick instead. Ambush is a waste of energy. In 80% of cases, open with sinister strike. - When you duel some tought and tanky prot classes, feel free to use double deadly poison and replace eviscerate with envenom. That works pretty nice and funny. - If you are fighting a frost mage, open with cheap shot and kick silence at the same time. He won't be able to blink. After silence fades, be ready to gouge - most likely he will teleport gouged, so you can walk to him. - Sap shaman and destroy all his totems. Combat rogues aren't opener dependant. - When you are fighting against a subtlety rogue, use your Killing Spree on his Shadow Dance. He won't be able to stun and you can gouge/dismantle him from behind 3 seconds later after teleporting. - You can make weapon switch macros (2 separated) for Killing Spree to maximize damage: #showtooltip Don't use sinister strike to switch back, shiv is better. Also, I highly recommend to place a non-macro'ed killing spree on your bar - faster root breaking/CC immunity without triggering global cooldown while switching weapons. |
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Edited by Dagins on 04/03/12 11:18 (UTC)
6. Example stun sequence.
1. Kick a healing spell ->At this point, healer is taking pure damage without any chance of refreshing shields or HoTs. You can also easly chain 3 sec silence from kick with 9 sec kidney shot (if you cannot interrupt his spells and when somebody else is attacking the target and dropping gouge). 7. Known bugs and glitches. - Savage combat talent doesn't work well with double wound poison (keeps refreshing, about 50% uptime). - Deadly throw sometimes has a deadly delay with interrupting a spell, then you die or gets CCd. - Killing spree doesn't work, when somebody teleport immediatelly out of range (heroic leap, blink, warlock's teleport), so it's easy to waste it. - Gouge can be blocked by a shield and it has some extra high chance for it, even expertise doesn't help. - Mastery (Main Gauche) can break gouge or blind in melee range. Stacking mastery makes it even worse and noticeable - quickly turn back yourself after gouging to prevent the bug. 8. The end. If I forgot about something or you have a question, write it. I can always add some points to this guide. Remember, many other things you can learn just from practising like I did. *** 9. Final update. I found in my e-mail free 7 sweet days of WoW from uncle Blizz. No, I won't buy any more prepaids from you guys, lol. Rogue class/playstyle is awesome, but it's so sad what happened to it. Of course, I had some fun with it in Cata, but it was below my expectations. I'm going to try it in GW2, and if it sucks as much as it does in WoW now, my mmorpg experience will be finished, and I will go doing something constructive in my life instead (haha). I would also send regards to Donmayo from Terokkar. Shame, we will never duel again somewhere in Barrens, but every story has its end. Also, regards for Durnalgoran (written with strange French accents), who knows the secret of WARLOCK GNOAM RAGE and just being awesome ("He made a mistake, so he died"). I do not apologize anyone for relentless ganking, corpse camping and newbie slaying, as it gave me tons of pleasure. Your tears were feeding me. Forever a rogue. ,,Tell them I'm through! Tell them it's over! Tell them Garrett is done!" - Garrett, Thief : The Dark Project. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gSb2A4mXtg |
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The extra change to dodge and long kideny shots are the best aspects of the Combat spec and a lot of fun in BG's if youre bored with Sub for a while.
Its tricky to kill things alone though. Oh and killing spree feels good using. The CD is rediculous though. |
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I'm no expert, but the way you describe this, it certainly sounds fun. Combat Rogue is the ultimate party crasher, the proverbial Monkey Wrench in the opponents plans. Sub will still remain overall more effective, most likely, and it can do pretty much everything this spec can too, just not the same way. I do have some questions, though.
1) The spec has really good CC, but how is its mobility, even with Sprint breaking snares, is it enough? I often find that 2nd Vanish really important, and seems like Rogues are balanced around Preparation at the moment. Intuitively this should make Restless Blades very valuable, depending on how often you can get an Eviscerate in. Damaging Finishers are fairly low on the priority list then? 2) How did you come up with both talenting AND glyphing SnD? Intuitively it seems that either one should be enough, but I haven't tested Combat in PvP in a long time. A lot of times the faster attack speed will be wasted due to being kited, so it feels like investing too much resources on 1 part of the spec. Could you elaborate on that a bit more, give some examples, or better yet, if you could make a video of this spec in action. 3) Since the main damage of this spec will be sustained damage and autoattacks, what are you're thoughts on DoTs, that is, bleeds and Deadly Poison? DoTs seem fairly weak for Combat in a PvE environment, but since this style is about control and maintaining pressure, are Rogue DoTs worth using, just for that small bit of extra damage? |
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Edited by Dagins on 25/08/11 13:42 (UTC)
1. Mobility is worse than sub's and you must learn when to use sprint. This is a very precious cooldown and cannot be wasted. Sometimes it's better just to wait out snare or root. To close gap you can use throw with crippling poison. Restless Blades would be a great talent (and a must) if it would proc from all finishing moves. Sadly, using too many eviscerates dramatically lowers your energy regeneration and overall DPS. Of course, this ability is not restricted. Rupture is useless - breaks gouge and blind while doing almost zero damage. I don't recommend it even against an armored target.
2. When you spec and glyph SnD, you can use it with only one combo point for over 20 sec duration (I don't remember exacly). Very powerful move. 3. DoTs break gouge and blind, you shouldn't use deadly poison (exception in tips&tricks), rupture or garrote. CC is much more powerful than this small additional damage. |
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lol |
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Dagins, thanks to you I keep respeccing to combat on my alt spec. And now you did it again...
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Can you explain me, with your whole wisdom, why do you want to buff critical strike damage of sinister strike, while this ability has about 16% crit chance in PvP gear? Thank you for comments, please click 'sticky' button if possible. |
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I keep specing back into combat, and I just cant make it work for me properly no matter what I do, wether it is a CC or a damage spec. Yes I have a good time sometimes but I'm always left feeling jaded.
Nice guide tho :) |
People always want what they can't get. |
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Edited by Vukdar on 25/08/11 21:58 (UTC)
Since tbc rogue have ever had only one intresting spec and now that is it finally good you really want play combat? It would be nice to have equally fun offspec, so you can switch back and forth? Example, if you are mage you can play all 3 specs in bgs and each can be fun and can do good. All 3 specs seem to be well thought out, from what I have seen, granted arcane is bit silly. Rogues can play only one spec and not feel like idiots. |
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Edited by Karmakazi on 26/08/11 09:46 (UTC)
Tbh, I'm actually starting to wonder about going mutilate for flag carrying RBG's.... Most of the time I seem to be attacking a plate flag carrier or aoe slowing packs of enemies, I might as well be doing some hard core damage in both situations.
Not that sub is terribad against plate, just I feel like mutilate will do more. |
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Dagins, what PvP are you talking about? I can kill almost any foe with 1500 arena rate in duel or while TB-ganking, but almost any skilled 2200+ player is a pain. I was kited to death by Ench Shammy, Even FDK can kite me. Now i'm playing RBG as a RL on 1700+ rate with my Combat Rogue and Feral Druid, and whence FDru's cyclones and insane burst are viable, bonus 2.7s on KSh and 2s on gouge aren't worth quadro loss of sustained burst from Muti-Rogue or Sub's insane burst and mobility.
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Requested sticky =)
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Edited by Dagins on 26/08/11 17:26 (UTC)
Zako, you must just learn how to counter these classes. For example, ench shaman has a painful sprint that breaks slows and roots on ~30 sec cooldown. You should save kidney shot or gouge for it, so keep diminishing returns clear before this action - don't sap and open with sinister strike. You have also blind. Use dismantle early. When he pops wolves, vanish with cloak or tank it with combat readiness (if it's world PvP and he can run away).
About frost death knights, your gap closing ability is killing spree or sprint, so he shouldn't run away from you (but try to save KS this time for extra burst). DKs need to hit you in order to regain health, so you should chain evasion, dismantle and killing spree (he won't hit you while teleporting). Use this move at 2/3 bandit's guile with agility trinket and adrenaline rush. At low health, silence kick to block sacrificing his ghoul for health. About your BGs, support another DPS with CC on healers, try not to tunnel anybody unless your team is winning. |
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Can this be stickied already please?
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