World of Warcraft

For the longest time I have towed along with the theory that Sargeras is the single most powerful entity in the known universe but lately i've switched stances on this.

We know that Sargeras was the most powerful of all of the Titans who fought the Burning Legion at every corner, defeating and imprisoning them. We know that eventually that he lost faith and in his mind the only order in the universe was in fact chaos. We know he is the lord of the Burning Legion, currently trapped in the Twisting Nether.

Now, it is quite easy to point to Sargeras as *the* most powerful entity and I welcome any arguments to re-convince me however I honestly believe that the Old Gods are more powerful but unlike Sargeras are limited to where they can be.

The Old Gods were never defeated (though there is speculation that one was killed..), merely imprisoned by many Titans (who lost some of their own).

Now considering it took all of the Titans might to even just imprison the Old Gods, could one of them really defeat the Old Gods? They are called gods for a reason after all, I just think that they really are the most powerful beings.

Also for arguments sake, it is either the Old Gods OR Sargeras, I will refute any other claim with ease ;)

Also the fact that almost everything seems to come back to the Old Gods and I hope the final expansion comes down to defeating them once and for all (somehow not killing the planet, as we all know the problem there).

Azeroth is their chess board, they move the pieces and sooner or later they will move and put us in *check*.

Neither Sargeras nor the Old Gods are most powerful.

The Nathrezim are the most powerful.
They're immortal, eternal and it doesn't appear possible to kill them for good.
On top of that, they were able to corrupt Sargeras.

As long as their Homeworld is intact, they're the definitive most powerful entities in the universe, I'd say, just not in terms of pure combat prowess.

Your regular orc grunt has more combat prowess than a dreadlord, dreadlords are a bit wussy when it comes to the dirty work.

They are excellent tacticans and schemers however I find it hard to acknowledge the Nathrezim as the biggest threat.

Your regular orc grunt has more combat prowess than a dreadlord, dreadlords are a bit wussy when it comes to the dirty work.

They are excellent tacticans and schemers however I find it hard to acknowledge the Nathrezim as the biggest threat.

And that's exactly what they want everyone to think... *cue a bunch of Nathrezim laughing ominously*

The Old Gods.............sigh.

Lets get something straight: The Old Gods got pwned hard by the Titans. The only reason they didnt get destroyed fully was because that would mean the end of Azeroth. It had nothing to do with their power. The Titans are stronger than the Old Gods.

Sargeras was the champion of the Pantheon, and as such, the strongest fighter of the Titans. Reasoning that the Old Gods are stronger than Sargeras is impossible.

Its just that we had Old Gods 'lore' thrown in our face at every turn, transforming them from the mysterious behind the scenes villians, into yet another stereotypical force of evil. This makes alot of us think: Ooooooo, Old Gods are here, they must be so strong, what can we do, bla bla bla.
And War Of the Ancients didnt do much good either, with that utterly retarded and baseless quote that even Sargeras would tremble in fear if the Old Gods would be releases.
I mean, COME ON.............

Overall, Sargeras is more powerfull than an Old God. Perhaps if they fought him all at once, they could take him. But, since we are killing them ourselves every other expansion or so, i dont see that happening.

Your regular orc grunt has more combat prowess than a dreadlord, dreadlords are a bit wussy when it comes to the dirty work.

They are excellent tacticans and schemers however I find it hard to acknowledge the Nathrezim as the biggest threat.

There's nothing, at all, lorewise to indicate a regular orcish grunt would have even a remote hope of defeating Nathrezim. Orcs are not even particularly powerful in terms of racial abilities amongst the playable races, let alone when confronted with demons of that magnitude of power. The game often fails to properly portray certain races (e.g. Naga) to the full extent of their power. Granted the WRPG has been de-canonised, but it's still a better source on racial abilities than the rather paltry in-game racials/stats or fluffy novels.

I'd say Sargeras is, on an individual level, the most powerful being in WoW (consider that he eclipses even KJ in power, and KJ in turn eclipses members of the Blue Dragonflight in sheer might.) This is pure speculation, though. As would be nominating the Old Gods, or the Titans, or Azshara (especially if she subverts N'zoth for her own purposes), or the Naaru. In terms of pure, raw power I'd say the Eredar supervene the Nathrezim, particularly given their own great intellect and tactical power.

Sargeras could cleave worlds in two with his blade.


While not the most powerful being, he is definately not a muppet.

26/08/2011 12:20Posted by Velayna

We know that Sargeras was the most powerful of all of the Titans who fought the Burning Legion at every corner, defeating and imprisoning them

First of all, Sargeras was the being responsible for creating the Burning Legion. The Nathrezim and the Eredar weren't even allied before they first fought with Sargeras. Same goes for the Pit Lords.

However, there's a lot of Retcon which has happened which first made out the Eredar to be a peaceful Arcane race which was eventually corrupted i.e to explain Draenei origins. In any case, that is unrelated to the origins of the Burning Legion, they were only created as such after Sargeras became evil.

26/08/2011 12:20Posted by Velayna

Now considering it took all of the Titans might to even just imprison the Old Gods, could one of them really defeat the Old Gods? They are called gods for a reason after all, I just think that they really are the most powerful beings.

Actually, there's already a lot of lore which suggests that the Titans did not kill the Old Gods because of the massive amount of entrenchment the Old Gods had performed on Azeroth i.e to kill the Old Gods would be to destroy the world itself. That is why they were imprisoned, rather than destroyed.

26/08/2011 12:41Posted by Velayna

Also the fact that almost everything seems to come back to the Old Gods and I hope the final expansion comes down to defeating them once and for all (somehow not killing the planet, as we all know the problem there).

You just contradicted yourself right there.

The Nathrezim are the most powerful.
They're immortal, eternal and it doesn't appear possible to kill them for good.
On top of that, they were able to corrupt Sargeras.

As long as their Homeworld is intact, they're the definitive most powerful entities in the universe, I'd say, just not in terms of pure combat prowess.

Point to note : While the Nathrezim are surely quite impressive in terms of their beguiling nature and ability to pit foes on each other, they do not have the raw destructive power of one such as Archimonde or Kil'jaeden. I know you say not in terms of pure combat prowess, unfortunately in most cases that is what mostly matters. Brute force usually wins out over guile.

Hell the Nathrezim failed in so many cases, took credit for things they did not do. In effect, they are ladder climbers, not warriors. Just look at Nathrezim like Tichondrius, Balnazzar, Mal'ganis, and you can guess very easily just what kind of warriors they really are. And they were the Elite of the Dreadlords.

26/08/2011 14:09Posted by Thaladhrun

Orcs are not even particularly powerful in terms of racial abilities amongst the playable races, let alone when confronted with demons of that magnitude of power

The Orcs killed Cenarius. Never forget that. Stupid Demons were so scared of Cenarius they wouldn't even dare confront him, i.e Mannoroth, and this guy was the leader of the Pit Lords, lol. Oh sure they did it by partaking Demonic Blood, but that just proves it, it only enhanced their already powerful combat prowess to the point where they could effectively fight a Demigod with impunity.

Sargeras can easily be construed as the most powerful malevolent being to exist in the Universe. Single most powerful being. Any of the Titans of the Pantheon could probably best him, but since we can't know that for sure we can't say anything at all. They did defeat the Old Gods and imprison them, and hence they are quite powerful, but as powerful as Sargeras or not is left to speculation.

26/08/2011 15:35Posted by Kaljurei

We know that Sargeras was the most powerful of all of the Titans who fought the Burning Legion at every corner, defeating and imprisoning them

First of all, Sargeras was the being responsible for creating the Burning Legion. The Nathrezim and the Eredar weren't even allied before they first fought with Sargeras. Same goes for the Pit Lords.

However, there's a lot of Retcon which has happened which first made out the Eredar to be a peaceful Arcane race which was eventually corrupted i.e to explain Draenei origins. In any case, that is unrelated to the origins of the Burning Legion, they were only created as such after Sargeras became evil.

Now considering it took all of the Titans might to even just imprison the Old Gods, could one of them really defeat the Old Gods? They are called gods for a reason after all, I just think that they really are the most powerful beings.

Actually, there's already a lot of lore which suggests that the Titans did not kill the Old Gods because of the massive amount of entrenchment the Old Gods had performed on Azeroth i.e to kill the Old Gods would be to destroy the world itself. That is why they were imprisoned, rather than destroyed.

Also the fact that almost everything seems to come back to the Old Gods and I hope the final expansion comes down to defeating them once and for all (somehow not killing the planet, as we all know the problem there).

You just contradicted yourself right there.

The Nathrezim are the most powerful.
They're immortal, eternal and it doesn't appear possible to kill them for good.
On top of that, they were able to corrupt Sargeras.

As long as their Homeworld is intact, they're the definitive most powerful entities in the universe, I'd say, just not in terms of pure combat prowess.

Point to note : While the Nathrezim are surely quite impressive in terms of their beguiling nature and ability to pit foes on each other, they do not have the raw destructive power of one such as Archimonde or Kil'jaeden. I know you say not in terms of pure combat prowess, unfortunately in most cases that is what mostly matters. Brute force usually wins out over guile.

Hell the Nathrezim failed in so many cases, took credit for things they did not do. In effect, they are ladder climbers, not warriors. Just look at Nathrezim like Tichondrius, Balnazzar, Mal'ganis, and you can guess very easily just what kind of warriors they really are. And they were the Elite of the Dreadlords.

26/08/2011 14:09Posted by Thaladhrun

Orcs are not even particularly powerful in terms of racial abilities amongst the playable races, let alone when confronted with demons of that magnitude of power

The Orcs killed Cenarius. Never forget that. Stupid Demons were so scared of Cenarius they wouldn't even dare confront him, i.e Mannoroth, and this guy was the leader of the Pit Lords, lol. Oh sure they did it by partaking Demonic Blood, but that just proves it, it only enhanced their already powerful combat prowess to the point where they could effectively fight a Demigod with impunity.

Sargeras can easily be construed as the most powerful malevolent being to exist in the Universe. Single most powerful being. Any of the Titans of the Pantheon could probably best him, but since we can't know that for sure we can't say anything at all. They did defeat the Old Gods and imprison them, and hence they are quite powerful, but as powerful as Sargeras or not is left to speculation.

Why do you believe any of the titans could best him? He was after all their champion, so im guessing he was no push-over. Maybe Aman'thul can take him on, but i doubt any of the others can.

The titans defeated the Old Gods, yes...but....There are many more Titans than old gods.

This makes any straight comparisions impossible.

We know of 7 Titans, including Sargeras, and 3 Old Gods... Not that many more.

Also, the Old Gods had the Elemental Lords, and massive armies at their disposal. That is why we can assume that the Titans were more powerful, as they did win that war.

Another point, i think it is fair to assume Sargeras is more powerful than an Old God, simply because he has destroyed entire worlds. The Old Gods are more or less corrupters, they corrupt, turn Azeroth into their plaything, and... Thats about it. Sargeras goes around and obliterates everything on entire worlds.

The Titans had their own armies as well, a conviently forgotten piece of information when it comes to the Titan fanbois ;)

Sargeras has a beard of fire, therefore he wins.

Whose to say that Yogg Saron wouldn't simply turn Sargeras insane and make him lose his mind? Sargeras doesn't really strike me as the most willed person about either. In fact the Old Gods are the masters of corruption and considering Sargeras did the whole emo thing in the first place of deciding he didn't like how things were, he doesn't strike me as someone who would resist corruption if the Old Gods decided on it.

The Nathrezim are the most powerful.
They're immortal, eternal and it doesn't appear possible to kill them for good.
On top of that, they were able to corrupt Sargeras

If the Nathrezim could.. the Old Gods certainly can.

The Old Gods' power mostly resides in their ability to corrupt and lay out intricate schemes - which is the same that can be said of the Nathrezim. Sargeras is, however far from a pushover and being corrupted doesn't really mean he's weak - simply that his power lays elsewhere.

Either way, it's not something to be contested given how it's outright stated that he's the most powerful being in the setting.

27/08/2011 12:01Posted by Velayna

The Titans had their own armies as well, a conviently forgotten piece of information when it comes to the Titan fanbois ;)

Please, please tell me where on earth you got that info? Or on what you've based that assumption?

27/08/2011 12:33Posted by Velayna

If the Nathrezim could.. the Old Gods certainly can.

Tell me why? The greatest being the Nathrezim ever corrupted was Sargeras, a great and noble titan. The greatest being the Old Gods ever corrupted was likely Neltharion, a dragon aspect.

Sounds to me like the Nathrezim are a bit better at corruption :P

27/08/2011 16:19Posted by Racathor

Sounds to me like the Nathrezim are a bit better at corruption :P

Or the Old Gods have simply not had the chance ;)

We know of 7 Titans, including Sargeras, and 3 Old Gods... Not that many more.

Also, the Old Gods had the Elemental Lords, and massive armies at their disposal. That is why we can assume that the Titans were more powerful, as they did win that war.

Another point, i think it is fair to assume Sargeras is more powerful than an Old God, simply because he has destroyed entire worlds. The Old Gods are more or less corrupters, they corrupt, turn Azeroth into their plaything, and... Thats about it. Sargeras goes around and obliterates everything on entire worlds.

'More than double' isn't many more?

The Titans had armies. Dragons and the precursor races, constructs and plant-creatures.