What changes will 4.3 bring to mages?

Topic says it all.

I would guess that it will bring a rather generous boost to fire dps and some slight mechanic changes on arcane and frost.
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85 Human Mage
5505
5 sec cast on deep freeze and frost nova has now a range of 1 yard
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85 Gnome Mage
7530
If done correctly, damage nerfs to Frost without compromising PvE and Impact moved higher in the fire tree. A few other changes would be nice too but Blizzard are too stubborn to separate PvE and PvP so they're not possible.
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85 Night Elf Mage
5680
Personally what I would like to see for PvP:

Lower cast time on frostbolt

FoF procs work with frostbolt again

A change to mastery to do something else.

Frostbolt damage scaled upwards to compensate. Glyph of ice lance changed so it does more damage to pve targets so the rotation doesnt become frostbolt spam for pve.

Shorter cast time on polymorph, dispel protection of some sorts.

If patch notes had something like this, Im pretty sure shatters would hit hard with frostbolts if they scaled them properly without relying on the mastery stat to make it so, mages will cast more and get more rewards for casting, ice lance hits less in pvp and would be less incentive to use since it wastes potential damage on fof procs, mastery would be viable but not a necessity.

I'm dreaming though, patch notes are going to be nothing like this. I'm just dreading they'll touch mastery to the amount of whines without tweaking the class at all. A mastery nerf I can handle, so long as they give us *something* because as it is mastery is the only thing keeping this class working in pvp with high shatter damage. If that gets touched without helping mages be able to cast more I feel this class is going to be screwed over.
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1 Orc Rogue
0
28/09/2011 04:01Posted by Shemy
FoF procs work with frostbolt again


What
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90 Goblin Mage
13700
FoF procs work with frostbolt again


What


he means like, frostbolt benefitting from FoF again.

EDIT: PvE wise I wouldn't mind a buff to fire to bring it back in line, and some some changes to how our aoe works so we finally can start aoeing again. Our current aoe sucks balls and while fire cleave is fun and interesting and stuff, it's also very random and can be very annoying at times.

If they made a change that would make flamestrike and blast wave interact with impact except for fishing for procs, I'd be a happy man.

Blizzards damage could do with a boost aswell!

Mages used to be "the kings of aoe" (exact words from the devs), and I'd like to be that again, in the fire spec.

Some way to keep scorch as a useful spell, instead of a mana efficient spell that we really wont need anymore because of the increase in mana pool.

Oh, and pretty much everything Cazzey said in that post about fire.
Edited by Duticyaa on 28/09/2011 07:56 BST
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90 Gnome Mage
12440
28/09/2011 04:01Posted by Shemy
FoF procs work with frostbolt again


= Utterly destroyed frost pve - Without the ability to hold on to FoF-procs for when we need them, competitive frost pve is a goner and that would really be a shame as frost is currently the most engaging and rewarding mage spec.
Edited by Nitiga on 28/09/2011 09:10 BST
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85 Human Death Knight
3775
I highly doubt blizzard can buff frost PvE-wise without making it even more OP in pvp.
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100 Human Mage
15470
I think they could increase the proc chance of brain freeze from frostbolt, sort of simulating the T12 set bonus, but only with frostbolts. T12 might become a bit silly, but we'll be moving on to T13 anyway, so it would be a good long term change. I think frost plays much better (in terms of fun & DPS) with T12 4-set, so it would be wise to take that set bonus and somehow add it to the standard build. I would maybe put it in the piercing chill talent to make that talent more useful when there's "nothing to cleave".
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85 Night Elf Mage
5680
FoF procs work with frostbolt again


= Utterly destroyed frost pve - Without the ability to hold on to FoF-procs for when we need them, competitive frost pve is a goner and that would really be a shame as frost is currently the most engaging and rewarding mage spec.


There's pet nova for the ability to wait for a gauranteed proc for DF every time it's off cooldown. As for waiting out FFB fof procs, I guess you're right, however with modifying the glyph of ice lance to do more damage against pve targets it might be more beneficial to actually use the fof procs for lances instead of waiting on FFB to do so. FFB is still a DPS increase even without FoF.

It doesn't change the playstyle too much, but every class needs a spec for PvP, for mages it has been frost, our 1 PvP spec should not suffer at the hands of PvE. Look at it this way, you're more than likely going to see a mastery change/nerf and it's due to PvP and thats going to affect PvE frost, it's better to separate the two slightly for overall better balance than have both negatively effected.

Mages do need mastery altered, frostbolt needs to hit harder again since it's kind of weak outside shatter damage and probably bar moonkins starsurge the longest casted dps nuke in the game. My changes aren't perfect, I'm not paid to balance the game and my insight is from playing this class and suggesting reasonable changes that keeps both player bases happy. But something like this is required.
Edited by Shemy on 28/09/2011 11:52 BST
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90 Gnome Mage
12440
Okay, Shemy, I didn't want to do this, but:

28/09/2011 11:50Posted by Shemy
FFB is still a DPS increase even without FoF.


Who taught you do play frost? While it is (most of the time !) a dps increase to BF-FFB on proc without FoF, it is certainly not true the other way around!

28/09/2011 11:50Posted by Shemy
however with modifying the glyph of ice lance to do more damage against pve targets it might be more beneficial to actually use the fof procs for lances instead of waiting on FFB to do so.


I love this part, this is where you truely demonstrates that you have not given this even a mediocre amount of rigorous thinking. Your original premise was that Frostbolt should eat our FoF charges. Exactly which FoF charges, then, is it that you propose we spend on Ice Lance? FoF-procs ticks in when we already have the next Frostbolt in the casting, and it would certainly not be viable to cancel that cast just to get off an Ice lance instead - and if we should get around to cancelling casts, why not cancel for a BF-FFB instead, making your whole glyph idea superfluous.

No Shemy, with your idea Frost Pve would go something like:

Frostbolt spam for 30 seconds
Pet Freeze
Deep Freese
if BF-proc: BF-FFB
else goto start

but every class needs a spec for PvP(...)


Then it should be a utility spec like the pvp soul in Rift: A spec that amount other things provides the functionality of resilience and the pvp trinket as well at general buffing of abilities vs other players, but does not bring any enhancements to specific spells and mechanics, like wow talent trees currently does.

However, given the current structure of the wow talent system, such an implementation is impossible: PvP balance in wow can only come from gear and the current implementation of Resillience is far too simplistic to do so, which is where the whole problem lies.

(...) for mages it has been frost, our 1 PvP spec should not suffer at the hands of PvE


I find myself missing any rational justification on your part of why Frost is "the pvp" spec over any other specs.

28/09/2011 11:50Posted by Shemy
, I'm not paid to balance the game and my insight is from playing this class and suggesting reasonable changes that keeps both player bases happy


YOu have just said that frost is pvp spec, that your suggestions are minded towards making frost so and that you really don't care if you destroy frost pve in the proces ("Our one pvp spec should not suffer at the hands of pve") - how on the face of Azeroth are you then trying to keep us that actually enjoy frost in pve happy? Shall we just go and play arcane?
Edited by Nitiga on 28/09/2011 13:36 BST
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85 Night Elf Mage
5680
Who taught you do play frost? While it is (most of the time !) a dps increase to BF-FFB on proc without FoF, it is certainly not true the other way around!


.....You're kidding, right?



No Shemy, with your idea Frost Pve would go something like:

Frostbolt spam for 30 seconds
Pet Freeze
Deep Freese
if BF-proc: BF-FFB
else goto start


Let me correct that for you. That would be stationary dps. This may come as a shock but you dont get to stand still an entire fight spamming, sometimes you're required to move. It would still work out better to use fof procs when you're forced to move, as well as when you use FFO, frostbolt spam can't keep up with the procs generally. You're acting as if frosts current rotation is any more difficult. It's not.

Then it should be a utility spec like the pvp soul in Rift: A spec that amount other things provides the functionality of resilience and the pvp trinket as well at general buffing of abilities vs other players, but does not bring any enhancements to specific spells and mechanics, like wow talent trees currently does.


We're not talking about rift. We're talking about wow, a game that precedes rift. PvP has been ongoing for years. Anybody thats even done 1 battleground/arena will tell you frost is the pvp spec for mages. Hypothermia debuff? Where did you think that came from?

I'm not interested in your ideas about what they should do for a pvp system, I'm trying to come up with ideas to balance mages in the current system without this mastery stat, which fyi, is in all probable cases going to be nerfed because of pvp.

I find myself missing any rational justification on your part of why Frost is "the pvp" spec over any other specs.


I don't know what to say to this really. Hm. lets think. Just because you find yourself missing a rational justification for why frost is considered a PvP spec, doesn't mean it isn't.

Heres a hint: Look at a lot of the talents, most are designed for survival/control and kiting, not for output of damage in raid enviroments. The damage is mostly burst, another key thing in pvp. Whats required a PvP spec for a dps class: Survival/control/burst. A lot of the bosses are immune to things in the frost spec like root and df stun and the snares, which frost specializes in, so much so that they had to add a secondary effect to DF because it was useless in raids.

I'm generally not thinking blizzard base specs around killing level 85 mobs or just a levelling spec so logically we must conclude its more based around PvP here, especially since its the spec most serious pvp mages have been using for the most part of, oh I don't know the entire game.

YOu have just said that frost is pvp spec, that your suggestions are minded towards making frost so and that you really don't care if you destroy frost pve in the proces ("Our one pvp spec should not suffer at the hands of pve") - how on the face of Azeroth are you then trying to keep us that actually enjoy frost in pve happy? Shall we just go and play arcane?
[/quote]

There's 3 talent trees. Not 1. You have two other trees to choose from, PvP mages don't. I'm still right in what I said. My suggested changes aren't perfect, I already stated so, I don't get paid to balance the game, what I did say is things do need changed however.
Edited by Shemy on 28/09/2011 14:39 BST
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100 Human Mage
15470
I read nearly all the mage Q&A feedback on the EU forums and most of it on the US forums. On the question of rotation, the most common answers said that frost is the most fun and that arcane is too monotonous. Given that feedback, I don't see PvE frost disappearing any time soon.
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85 Human Mage
10065
28/09/2011 02:50Posted by Tayen
damage nerfs to Frost without compromising PvE


Yeah right

if done right Il eat a chicken without eating a chicken.
Edited by Nyantik on 28/09/2011 14:49 BST
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86 Blood Elf Mage
0
28/09/2011 02:50Posted by Tayen
If done correctly, damage nerfs to Frost without compromising PvE and Impact moved higher in the fire tree. A few other changes would be nice too but Blizzard are too stubborn to separate PvE and PvP so they're not possible.


No offense but can we please stop it with the frost pve thing.

Screw frost pve, make it dedicated pvp tree, you can't have it both ways, and I'd rather have them fix fire for pve and frost for pvp, then just screwing it up yet again.
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90 Gnome Mage
12440
Shemy, I am not gonna adress your whole post in detail, but merely remark the following:

1) You continue to contradict yourself. YOur premise is that Frostbolt consume FoF, hence we cannot have FoF-stacks available for movement except for extreme strokes of luck, and your whole argument sorta falls apart

2) Your argument for why Frost is the pvp spec for mages is an appeal to tradition. I realize that we are dealing with descent with modification here, and as such we are stuck with having some pvp-favored mechanics in the frost tree. That however is no argument why the two other trees can't be made viable in pvp to or why Frost pve viablilty have to go yonder for that matter.

3) I am not the one trying to limit mage trees to one specific role. You are. I'd gladly see all three mage trees viable in both pvp and pve, along with every other tree in every other class. I might even have a few ideas to how it could come about (but you are not interested in hearing them, I gather, but lets just say it involves having resilience behave like mastery, adding general and unique pvp utility to each tree). It is you who cling to the idea that there should be one tree in every class that is "the pvp tree", whilest forgetting to mention exactly how this should play out for Paladins and Druids.

This is getting increasingly off topic, so I will halt it here - reply to this post if you wish. I hope I at least have managed to demonstrate why the original point of dispute - FoF-consuming Frostbolts - is a bad idea for frost pve dps and fun-factor.
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85 Night Elf Mage
5680
1) You continue to contradict yourself. YOur premise is that Frostbolt consume FoF, hence we cannot have FoF-stacks available for movement except for extreme strokes of luck, and your whole argument sorta falls apart


Extreme strokes of luck my !@#. You have a one minute cooldown that lasts for 15 seconds to use ice lance, giving you generally 15 seconds every minute (1/4 of a minute) where ice lance is useful because frostbolt won't be able to keep up with the amount of procs generated, in between that you have your DF, your ffb procs and for the remainer use frostbolt. If required to move and have a fof proc, use it on ice lance. So does that really seem like "Just frostbolt spam?" to you?

I fail to see how its any different now, except that:

When fof procs, instead of using frostbolt in stationary position, you do one of two things:

1. For best conditions you save the fof proc for a ffb proc to combine it.
2. Otherwise, if its running out of duration, you use ice lance.

If you have 2 fof procs, use one immediately so any further spells dont overwrite and waste a fof proc.

Wow. Thats difficult gameplay, You're pressing two more buttons...slightly more frequently than what I suggested. Theres no more variance than what I suggested, the paths been laid out, you stray from it you're not doing optimal dps. You telling me that instead of casting frostbolt in optimal stationary position, and instead pressing ice lance or ffb on frostbolt generated fof procs (since IL ends up overall stronger on ffo) makes the spec twice as fun?


2) Your argument for why Frost is the pvp spec for mages is an appeal to tradition. I realize that we are dealing with descent with modification here, and as such we are stuck with having some pvp-favored mechanics in the frost tree. That however is no argument why the two other trees can't be made viable in pvp to or why Frost pve viablilty have to go yonder for that matter.


PvP-favoured mechanics? Dude, look at the frost tree.....are you trying to kite and root bosses to death? Blizzard has done their best to make it viable for PvE, but primarily thats not the specs function. Why do you think there is hypothermia? DF? Shattered barrier being on DR with coc root? Do you think its the mobs that complain about roots? Or the stun/root immune bosses?

The other two trees primarily focus on damage, for PvP damage is important but survivability and control are just as important if not more, every class follows this formula.

I never said frost pve viablity had to go, but if its interfering with PvP, it needs adjusting, theres two other trees for that, making another entire part of the game suffer because some people want an additional choice what to play in PvE is just plain selfish. Frost not being adjusted properly because of pvp interferes with pvp completely, the reverse does not hold true since fire and arcane are for pve.

3) I am not the one trying to limit mage trees to one specific role. You are. I'd gladly see all three mage trees viable in both pvp and pve, along with every other tree in every other class. I might even have a few ideas to how it could come about (but you are not interested in hearing them, I gather, but lets just say it involves having resilience behave like mastery, adding general and unique pvp utility to each tree). It is you who cling to the idea that there should be one tree in every class that is "the pvp tree", whilest forgetting to mention exactly how this should play out for Paladins and Druids.


I can't believe I have to explain this, everyone knows this:

There is 10 classes, with 3 different talent trees. Thats a combination of 60 talent specs, each with their invidivual perks and niches. Trying to balance PvP with a combination of every different class, with every different spec is just not possible. You're talking theory here, I don't want to talk theory.

It's all good enough to sit and say that all 3 specs for every class should be viable, but in reality its just not possible to do. I'm not interested because I very much doubt you're involved in PvP so I know it would be a complete waste of time listening to your ideas

What do you do then? What they have been doing, balancing PvP around certain specs.

This is getting increasingly off topic, so I will halt it here - reply to this post if you wish. I hope I at least have managed to demonstrate why the original point of dispute - FoF-consuming Frostbolts - is a bad idea for frost pve dps and fun-factor.


Well, you may think you've proven something, but not to my knowledge.

The only difference from what I suggest and what you're talking about is: Do you press 2 or 3 instead of 1 on fof procs when stationary. If you're telling me that pressing 2 or 3 instead of one on an RNG proc makes that much of a difference in fun factor, I'll call you a liar and be right about it.
Edited by Shemy on 28/09/2011 18:12 BST
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85 Human Mage
2065
I kinda wish they'd ressurect Fire and make it OP ;)
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85 Gnome Mage
7530
28/09/2011 16:33Posted by Triarii
If done correctly, damage nerfs to Frost without compromising PvE and Impact moved higher in the fire tree. A few other changes would be nice too but Blizzard are too stubborn to separate PvE and PvP so they're not possible.


No offense but can we please stop it with the frost pve thing.

Screw frost pve, make it dedicated pvp tree, you can't have it both ways, and I'd rather have them fix fire for pve and frost for pvp, then just screwing it up yet again.

Sure I'm fine with that - but I get they want every spec PvE viable (PvE game afterall) so /shrug. I just hope they find a suitable solution and don't leave it unchanged.
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Frost damage very high in PVP? Are you insane bro? Just prey the nerfhammer don't get us too and we become the 2nd Arms warriors of pvp that can't kill anything anymore. Our sustained damage is s**t and boosting it by promoting casting and nerfing burst isn't an option since all classes have interrupts on low cooldowns. Think before you utter such nonsense. Our burst is our ONLY decent tool.

The only justified nerf that I can think of is to get impact further below on the fire tree. That will be more than enough.
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