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I wanna give some info about my talent build.I was using that precision from combat build too,but realised that if you are over %8 hit without talent points you should spend ur points suc as initiate and eviscerate damage boost talent(i didnt recall exact name).So my ambushes give 4 points ot once,one extra from crit of ambush and one from initiate.
I offer this talent rotation
1-Start with stealth of course and ask your healers to heal for Honor among thieves combo points before fight
2-If you don't have 5 CP before fight ,don't worry.use them for recuperate for energy regen
3-MAcro ur premeditation with ambush and open with ambush for 5 CP
4-Use 5 CP for SnD
5-You have find weakness debuff on enemy now.Spam backstab on enemy for combo points
6-Rupture
7-Pool energy to 100*
8-Pop Shadow Dance
9-Here is Critical and mostly for expert subtlety rogues.With Find weakness debuff Ambush and Backstab Damage is nearly same.If u Ambush right after Shadow Dance,you will have 4 CP at worst conditions because of Honor Among Thieves and Initiate.At this point I offer Backstab as last combo point builder since backstab crits will give 5 energy ,if you user ambush you will deal same damage,more than 3 combo points which will be wasted because
5 Combo points Cap ^^.So to simplify what i mean
you have Shadow Dance-you ambushed-got 4 combo point.Options
1-30k Damage Ambush-3 combo points more but you need one only for 5 CP-40 energy gone
2-30k Damage Backstab-2 combo points with HAT-40 Energy gone -5 energy regain(profit)

10-After Shadow dance goes off and Find weakness goes off too,Use vanish for new opening
11-Do you damage fill your combo points bla bla

Buff -Debuff priority
1-If u have less than 5 CP before fights use them on Recuperate
2-IF u have 5 CP use them on SnD.
3-Then when u have 5 CP more check your Buffs.If u have recuperate have more than 10 seconds or so.Use rupture.If recuperate will vanish soon or u don't even have recuperate renew it.
Buff-Debuff Renewal Priority
1-Don't let your Rupture fall.You will renew it with eviscerate btw.
2-Recuperate and Snd is at same priority for me.Use it at your style
3-If u can't renew rupture somehow,check how much time left for boss.If it's less than 1 min or so,don't try to put Rupture again,just eviscerate ur combo points.

I know people won't understand muchy from here due to bad english.But you can ask me whatever you want.Playing subtlety pve for 3 months and i can answer most of your questions.

Yeah, the doubts enter my mind when I read 'always use 5pt finishers', but if I ever get into the situation one of my debuff falls off as my MoS rupture is about to fall off as well, I'm forced to refresh it with evis and need to build 5 CPS again, but without the benefit of either haste regen or recup regen, depending on which fell off. I find prioritizing recuperate for the energy regen makes it easier to get my rotation back on track, since if it's down I have enough trouble getting CPs just to refresh SnD and Rupture. I did find that 90% of the time Im stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to my debuffs synchronizing their timers I have either vanish or shadow dance up and can quickly get the combo points to save my hide. Using 2 pt finishers only delays the problem, since using a 2-3pt recup right after refreshing rupture puts the two at around the same time remaining again, same with SnD.

I love your description of using non-5pt eviscerates for rupture BTW, it's exactly how I feel when I feel forced to try it. I'm hitting the button just thinking to myself 'oh you bastard, don't do it, just forego this eviscerate's damage and put up a new rupture once you get 5, cause if this fails you'll lose rupture AND have no CPs', but I still do it :p

I might prioritize recuperate over a non-MoS rupture refresh as well for now to keep my energy regen high at all times so the penalty for failing to keep stuff up is minimized, at least until I decide to reforge into haste or get some more gear so I can keep two sets. (I tried using the items I replaced in FL recently, reforged into expertise and haste, but I actually do 3K more DPS using my best gear, even if it's lacking haste)

Thanks for your answers :)

sidenote, I made a topic about target dummy DPS because I'm very curious to get a fair comparison of my DPS to see how I'm performing rotation wise, and doing Assassination runs with my fully optimized-for-mutilate gear I get about 17.5K max if I'm pretty much perfect (or at least feel as though I am), if I make a mistake where I vanish but due to some unknown issue my garrote doesn't go off, I'll drop to 16.5. Doing my tests with subtlety and changing only my two trinkets and my chestplate I make 16.5 to 17.5K as well :p I'm actually very interested to see what happens if I DO reforge optimally, but I kinda want to try subtlety in a raid setting before I commit to it fully and spend all that gold :p

Doing my tests with subtlety and changing only my two trinkets and my chestplate I make 16.5 to 17.5K as well :p I'm actually very interested to see what happens if I DO reforge optimally, but I kinda want to try subtlety in a raid setting before I commit to it fully and spend all that gold :p

I am doing 19.5k with my new gear,sustained or whatever is that word .Actually Sub is hardest to get know,even if we use simplest language,or use 1 hour of training -rotation video,its hard to teach other one i think.I am playing for 3 months and my thoughts on rotation always changes.

05/11/2011 22:06Posted by Tomura

Doing my tests with subtlety and changing only my two trinkets and my chestplate I make 16.5 to 17.5K as well :p I'm actually very interested to see what happens if I DO reforge optimally, but I kinda want to try subtlety in a raid setting before I commit to it fully and spend all that gold :p

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised; going from a Training Dummy to a real encounter should give you some nice numbers. The highest damage output I've had so far was just over 29k on a Heroic dungeon boss, which is quite good for the gear.

I normally sit at around 24-25k on a 'Tank and Spank' HC dungeon boss.

Thanks a bunch for this thread. I'm not really fond of Assasination or Combat and will definitely play Sub in PvE as well. This thread will help out ^^

Yeah I hope I can manage the rotation while also keeping up with the raid mechanics and movement etc. On a dummy I can just about keep all the debuffs/buffs active without dropping them (though I cut it close sometimes) and pull about 17-18K dps out of my hat. In the first few heroics I did I had a ball and got to 23K on several bosses.
But then again, my last ZA run I didn't even have to take a surge on Naloriak and still only got up to 20K because I failed at the rotation. I still need to find a balance between waiting for that last CP from the raid or forcing it myself, as I've had groups where waiting for a CP left me without any HaT procs for 6-7 seconds. In any case I've fully reforged and am anxious to try it for real in our next FL raid :)

Can I ask yall something?
I find it hard to keep to the prio's. I can keep Rupture and SnD up. However I cant build combo points fast enough to squeeze in an Evis or Recuperate. I know that a 5 CP Evis refreshes the Rupture, but every time I wanna do Evis , my SnD goes off.

This is what I do:
premed, shadowstep, ambush and maybe a hemo to get 5pt. Then I use those 5 cp's for SnD. Then I build up another 5 with BS and maybe a hemo (if I didnt use it before) and pop Rupture. But when I'm on my 3rd buildup to 5 pt's, my SnD almost falls off. SO I have to do that, and 5 pts later my rupture is down already, slightly before i could use evis to refresh it.

How can I keep Rupture and SnD up and use Evis to refresh the rupture, instead of having te recast it every time?
And how do I ever squeeze in a recuperate? 0.o I don't get 5 cp's so fast...

Should I open with rupture at first 5 pts, or keep doing what I'm doing?

Assuming that we're talking about this character, you're going to really struggle to manage such a rotation until around 85. If you are set on sticking with sub, consider just keeping SnD and Recup up; it should be a lot more viable. When you are 85 and have more haste, you'll have combo points coming out of your ears.

You are correct that you use rupture first, if it is within the Master Of Subtlety window; for now, it's probably worth ignoring it and using SnD.

Well I'm well pleased after yesterday evening's raid. Usually we kick it off with a quick BH run if it's up (and somehow it always seems to be), and I usually end up middle of the pack DPS-wise at 22-23K with Assassination. Yesterday I was first with 25.5K as Subtlety. I would not have managed that with my old spec, even if I made zero mistakes, and I wasn't even optimal now. On the other bosses we did (beth, shannox, rhyo and alys) it was a bit harder to measure, as I'm not sure what I usually manage, but I got the feeling it was definately higher. I could still not keep up with the mage and 2 warlocks tho, even though only one of them is better geared then me, so I hope to improve still.

Glad to hear it. It's probably only going to get better as things become more subconsciously controlled; gear scaling is also pretty good!

Yeah I need to figure out optimizations like should I spam backstab as fast as possible to 4 CPs or try and always wait 2 seconds after one crits before I do the next one to avoid wasting HaT procs. But since HaT procs pretty quickly from the raid anyway, if I did spam Backstab I might just end up with 1 extra backstab done, lower energy, and the same 4 CPs. Which is better? The one that costs the least amount of energy per CP by conserving and only doing HaT-capable backstabs, or the one that leads to the most damage per CP by fitting in more backstabs?

Stuff like that I'll discover as I raid, but I only do so 4 hours in one night a week, so it'll be a slower process than Assassination/Combat where you can practice rotation on dummies.

If you can suck up a few random dungeons (ZA is good), then there are some great Tank and Spank bosses to work on.

Regarding the backstab, since you can almost count on a HaT proc every couple of seconds, you're normally best of stopping BS at 4 and waiting. You're unlikely to be in a position where you'll cap in the next two seconds, but you play it by ear. If you've seen HaT proc you to four, you might be tempted to BS/Eviscerate, but you're not going to get them both off before HaT procs again.

I'm mostly doubting how to get to 4. Should I spam backstab as fast as possible, wasting my own (very likely) HaT procs? Or should I try and be more energy efficient and use 2 backstabs over 2 seconds so both proc and I've only used 70 energy for my 4 points? In one case I've used 70 energy for 2 backstabs = 4 CPs, in the other, I've used 105 energy for 3 backstabs = 4CPs. It's less energy efficient per CP, but it's an extra backstab damage-wise nonetheless.

Don't try and work it that way, just keep a 'rough' idea in your head of when the last HaT CP kicked in; that will allow you in roughly guess when the next is due. As long as you have enough energy for an eviscerate, keep plugging away with BS until you're at 4. If you have to wait a couple of seconds, you won't cap energy, and you won't waste CP.

Another thing I've been wondering by the way:
I've got hemo glyphed because this spec used to be my PvP offspec, and I've included hemo in my PvE rotation now that it's become my PvE main spec. But should I? I don't mean putting it up every 1 minute to increase the damage my rupture does, I mean should I refresh it every 24 second to keep it's bleed up?

Would it be better to just always rely on rupture being on the target for the bleed and only refresh hemo for the 1 min extra bleed damage debuff? Or should I keep it in my rotation and try to keep the hemo bleed on my target as well? I get the feeling I might be better off replacing the glyph for Eviscerate (or Shadow Dance if I ever get that down right) instead of using it as another bleed, but I'm not sure.

I refresh Hemo every 24 secs, and keep it glyphed. It's great value for money when you consider the 40% bonus damage as a DoT. I generally recommend that people leave that till they have the rotation sorted, as it's one less thing to worry about.

the question is, if you do use hemo you're using 3 hemo's per minute (simplifying 24 sec bleed to 20), where you could also be doing 1 hemo and 2 backstabs, which means a little more energy spent, but also more combo points and what about the damage? I get the feeling hemo does so much less damage than backstab (especially if you include the crit chance and extra CPs) that even with a bonus to bleed damage, using backstabs instead of those 2 extra hemo's per minute might be better DPS wise. Also, it means you can glyph for Eviscerate or Shadow Dance, which in turn also increases the alternative damage output.
Different sources say different things regarding whether or not to go for a glyphed and constantly refreshed hemo or to only use it to boost your rupture and go for another glyph. I think shadowcraft has Eviscerate as the default 3rd glyph, while EJ has hemo as a given.

16/11/2011 12:31Posted by Tomura

if you do use hemo you're using 3 hemo's per minute (simplifying 24 sec bleed to 20), where you could also be doing 1 hemo and 2 backstabs, which means a little more energy spent, but also more combo points and what about the damage? I get the feeling hemo does so much less damage than backstab (especially if you include the crit chance and extra CPs) that even with a bonus to bleed damage, using backstabs instead of those 2 extra hemo's per minute might be better DPS wise. Also, it means you can glyph for Eviscerate or Shadow Dance, which in turn also increases the alternative damage output.

3 Hemos give you 3 CB and the 40% damage bleed, which benefits from Sanguinary Vein.

While BS does more damage in a direct comparison, it uses more energy and has no bleed. When you look at the whole picture, you're getting more bang for buck with Hemo than you are with BS. If the bleed stacked, I'd probably drop BS completely.

As for the Eviscerate/Dance glyphs, I'd possibly rate the Eviscerate above Dance, simply because it's harder to benefit from the additional Dance time when compared with the easy bonus from an Eviscerate crit %. Even then, I'd take the Hemo bleed over the 10% crit increase.

It is not a game-breaker to swap Hemo out, but I do believe it's a DPS loss over-all.

I just did a small test and some napkin math cause it wouldn't stop bugging me.
My hemo hits for an average of 12.4K (including the bleed, which was obviously benefiting from the hemo buff and the damage bonus on a bleeding target), at the cost of 29 energy, giving me 427 damage per energy and an average of 1.32 combo points a my 32% crit.

My backstab hits for an average of 18K (I did a hemo to give the target a bleed, as ideally you would always have Rupture on there and benefit from the damage bonus). for 37 energy on average, giving me 487 damage per energy and an average of 1.62 combo points.

While I have a tendency to bow to the wisdom of more experienced players, I'm not seeing this 'more bang for your buck' you mention. Even including the bleed damage, hemorrhage gives me less for my buck (energy) in both bang categories, damage and combo points. I'd love to see what I'm missing if you can spare even more time to explain stuff to my inexperienced behind :p

You're forgetting that Hemo double-dips from crit. You should be basing this on logs, too, rather than dummy tests.

Looking at a fairly old Shannox log of mine (I barely raid anymore), my Hemo DoT ticked for an average of 3k (including crits). My Hemo hit for an average of 22k damage. Taking 8 ticks of the Hemo DoT, my Hemo did an average of 46k per GCD spent on it. My Backstab did ~35k/GCD.

There's a lot more to how the Hemo bleed works than this, but it gives you an idea of how much damage you can expect from the Hemo bleed itself, on your own terms; quite a lot. It also scales quite well with gear since it double dips from Sanguinary Vein and Crit.