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As I attempt to lodge myself into the ever changing world of the forums, I have another idea for a post.
I, along with others, have been attempting to motivate the Alliance back into her glory days. While we are by no means defeated, some have noted that we seem to be taking it slow with our role play.
To this end, I wanted to try get people interested in a thread like this.
Here we can discuss what we feel would positivly benifit our role playing community, be it Horde or Alliance.
What do I mean exactly? Have you ever rolled a toon and looked for something on the server but never quite found it? Perhaps you've still enjoyed your role play but have always been aching for what you saught after originally.
Maybe you wanted to get caught up in the political side of the Horde Role play, but you found it somewhat sparse. Maybe you wanted to join a community of druids on the Alliance and found no such venue.
Here, in the comfort of this thread, I hope you'll share what you feel the server needs/wants or could simply benifit more from having. This might help you find that type of role play your after, it might also help future guilds and up and comming guilds in growing if they know what your after!
I've always felt there should be more of an Alliance versus Horde atmosphere on the Sha'tar. It's not something that's always popular, role players don't always like pvp, and RPPvP can be too complicated/dull for some people if not done right. And, true enough, in Vanilla and even TBC, the lore didn't push us too much toward fighting the opposite faction.
It wasn't until the Wrath Gate that it felt as if this was to become the trend. Even when united in a common cause the Alliance and Horde can still be at odds. And of course, since then we've seen an increase in Alliance versus Horde lore. The Broken Front, Ulduar, Icecrown to name a few, and that's only just Wrath.
There, for a long time, was a feeling of the Horde being a very nominal threat to the Alliance on the Sha'tar, or at least that's what I saw. We were always more focused on the Legion, the Lich King or the Twilights. But, Cata has shown us that even while in the face of a more powerful foe, we can swing punches at the opposing faction.
I'd like to see more guilds and players driving to fight the Horde. More events in places like Ashenvale, or Arathi where the Horde machine presses against us. And I'd especially like to see Horde guildes and players get involved too. Perhaps striking against us in Ashenvale or fortifying Stranglethorn's Horde camps.
As well as this there is one other thing I'd like to see. A little pride about being in the Alliance. I'd never say "People should fight the Horde and love the Alliance", but it would be nice if there was at least one other character who was proud to fight with the Alliance and honour their leaders!
Um, I started writing, then deleted some of it, then realised what was left was slightly off-topic, but thought it was something I should post anyway. Bear in mind this might sound like I mean this thread, but I don't. I mean other things that I've observed or experienced over the last year-ish.
I feel we need more people to realise that they can sit up and say "yes, I can do that!" - whether "that" is turning up to an RP event initiative that they said they'd like to see, or running one themselves instead of waiting for someone else to (and, sometimes, complaining when it's not how they imagined it).
I hear so many people say "oh, yes, that's a lovely idea! The realm could really use something like that!", and then nobody turns up to the first event because everybody thought that it wouldn't matter if they didn't turn up and did some archaeology instead, because everyone else would turn up, surely.
Or, when the event organiser becomes disheartened by this and considers giving up, people who say "no, don't give up! It's something we really enjoy!" ...and then do the exact same thing as above.
These things don't work if people don't turn up, and there's nothing the faciliator/leader can do to make people turn up other than organise and advertise. People need to stop thinking that we mean everybody else, or "the big names"* when we say "we want YOU to turn up".
Yeah, you. Right there. Who's reading this thread and thinking this doesn't apply to you. I'm guilty of this myself, too, but I'm trying to make fewer excuses and attend more stuff. But - I, like you, can't do it alone.
Take a friend with you. Take your guild with you. No, it doesn't matter that you're not an officer. Are your guild doing something else? No? Take them with you. Worry they won't be interested? Take them with you anyway.
*(This is an expression and an idea that I hate, by the way - that there is a set list of "big names" that are the only ones that can organise significant RP, and that if something doesn't at least have the endorsement of these "big names" then it's doomed to fail. It's unfair on several levels and I hope that it's as minority a viewpoint as I think it is.)
Edited by Ursala on 06/11/2011 20:17 GMT
A good post Ur-Ur. Yes I'm going to call you Ur-Ur.
I've experianced said problems in the past. While I was trying to set up the Theramore project I was was told it as a great idea and that a lot of people would get involved. Of course when the time came to start working it was just me and my number 2! Hard to run a city with 2 people!
As for big names, I agree that their attendance shouldn't make or break an event, but there's no doubt about it that it helps. For a start, if the guild leader attends, chances are his members will attend, which already boosts your numbers. If the guild's role play is good stuff, you'll get other people wishing to attend, it's like if your friends recommend a bar! And if one big guild attends chances are another might attend due to an alliance between the two or to stop that guild taking all the glory!
I believe their presence helps, but it's not nessicary! Like chips without salt really. But on a server like the Sha'tar, set in its ways and with a small population, lacking big names saddly often means lacking attendees. Alliance side anyway.
I'm used to nicknames by now Nu-nu x)
As for big names, I agree that their attendance shouldn't make or break an event, but there's no doubt about it that it helps. For a start, if the guild leader attends, chances are his members will attend, which already boosts your numbers. If the guild's role play is good stuff, you'll get other people wishing to attend, it's like if your friends recommend a bar! And if one big guild attends chances are another might attend due to an alliance between the two or to stop that guild taking all the glory!I mostly think the problem I have with "big names" is the perceived dependency on them. I remember not too long ago, somebody complaining that random RP wasn't easy enough to find on the Sha'tar, and myself and my guild leader (as well as a couple of others) asked them what they would propose to change that. Their proposal consisted of "I don't know, one of you big-names should think something up!" The idea they were pushing was that the lack of random RP was the fault of large guilds, and that therefore large guilds and especially their guild leaders were under an obligation to fix it. Which makes sense at face value but I'll explain a little more.
The idea is basically that some people on the realm, i.e. the 'big names' - famous event facilitators and guild leaders of large guilds - have obligation extending beyond those obligations they choose themselves to take on. And there's problems with that idea.
First, it means the people who believe these ideas, have these attitudes, have become passive, and perceive themselves as dependent on somebody else for their RP. They're not proactive any longer. This is, I think, the biggest and the saddest (sad as in, sadface :( ) problem with the idea that 'big names' exist and have some special responsibility or power over the realm. It means that the people who believe this somehow given up the idea that they can create their own RP and influence the realm themselves. And unfortunately, it often means they feel they can blame the big names when the suggested RP initiative goes wrong, regardless of how hard the suggestor may or may not have - but likely not - tried to make it happen themselves. It can too often be a way of trying to get RP with unreasonably minimal effort, by way of shunting that effort onto somebody else. In other words, lazy.
Secondly, it's unfair on the people who themselves are seen as big names. Far more often than not, they've become seen as that because they've run quite a few large events and/or initiatives themselves. The leap of logic which dictates that this means they're under obligation to run whatever events community members think they should is an unreasonable one. It'd be nice for them to do more, sure - it'd be nice for anybody to do more RP initiatives and events, regardless of whether they're well-known or not - but forcing creativity on someone is a surefire way to make them feel rotten and burnt-out. But that is less relevant to what we're talking about here, really.
I agree with what you say that if a guild leader turns up to an event, then his guildies usually will too; but I don't believe that a guild leader ought to be the only person in a guild with the power to command their guildies' attendance. I believe the ideal situation will be one where you have a number of people in the guild who read the realm forums, so that even if the guild leader is away, somebody can put realm events on the guild calendar and guild attendance can be drummed up.
And I think the situation with the realm should be similar - people shouldn't need to rely on big names to advise or tell them what RP events we should or shouldn't go to, or to rely on them to bring attendants with them. We, as event organisers, shouldn't have to rely on big names turning up - we should be able to rely on people to sit up and take note for themselves of what RP events they think are awesome, and then attend them regardless of whether big names are or not.
But that relies on the "people sitting up and taking note" part, and I guess that's what I'm getting at. MORE PEOPLE NEED TO DO THAT.
I ramble a lot! I AM SORRY.
I can see some of your frustration, Ursala but ... and I am not disagreeing with you (hides behind a table) ... one of the reasons big names are important is because of their networks. It is not their responsibility, it is simply how many people they know. The reason I like to see big names linked to events is because I know that word will have gotten out that there is an event. It really doesn't take many events where only a few people turn up to put people new to RP realms (like me) off organising them. It is really not very nice to have an idea, advertise it as best you can, get fired up, make stuff, arrange stuff ... and be sat there with one or two people who feel vaguely uncomfortable but obliged to hang around.
Forums? Not all that many people seem to read them. Trade? Ditto. Rolling Hills? A bit better but still really dependent on word of mouth and being online with the right people at the right time. Whereas a big name getting behind an event means a whole guild of people who know how to RP, will join in and who can make an event work will have heard.
So I guess I am saying that I get your point but the practicality is that big names are important. I'd love to run a whole load of things - but I can't reliably get enough people to turn up to an event. Some of that is down to me not knowing how to do things properly. Some of it is not. The passivity, I think, comes from the simple mechanism - you come to a realm, you are excited and try to organise something. No one shows, you get disheartened, you stop thinking you can do it after a few tries. You end up sat there waiting for someone better at it to organise things, or hoping a well known person will back you if you suggest something. Breaking back out of that is difficult.
You are, I am afraid, well known and liked in the community. You saying an event is good enough for you to want to go to makes a difference. Same with a lot of the core RPers on the server. People feel more comfortable going somewhere there are people they know and respect who will act as a 'guarantor' of good RP!
I had a point. But I lost it about paragraph two. Any ideas?
One of the most potent things for me on roleplay servers is the fact that everyone has a diffrent story, a rich history deticated to the heroes and villeins, the hasbeens wanabes neverwillbes and those arogant prats who think they can dodge a bullet.
but there is one binding story, one things that drives everyone, its generaly wow Cannon.
I think the shatar lacks a strong player driven cannon, something that all roleplayers can relate to. Back in "the day" we had the defence of astranaar, the player run silithid campaigns ect, that was big news and impacted the community as a whole, something that bound and immortalised the servers.
A horde vs Alliance war would be tasty, but at the minute the server doesnt have the capabilities, especialy the under nurished alliance Rp community, but as Vashnu said, we're trying, we're fighting for the future of Alliance Rp and Rp on the server in general, I beleive we're fighting the good fight and that it can be won, with determination we can bring the excentrisitics that define our server back.
Another thing I feel wow lacks completely is moral ambiguity, think of the last load of bad guys we fought, Arthas, Want to kill everything, why? For the craic. Deathwing, wants to kill everything, why? for the craic. Its blizzard making their bad guys easy to kill off ect, but its rediculous, We need bad guys who are doing things for a reason, we need people doing evil acts for good ends, people trying to get their day done, tho the contents of said day are moraly questionable.
I'm really drunk btw, sorry guys, just back from the EMA's.
Heh, if you want moral ambiguity in you plots then don't play Wow. I am sorry if that sounds like I am bashing Blizz, I am not. But their stories since I joined (WotLK) have been laughably one dimensional. It is not just them, most games seem to be gravitating to this model where you have stereotyped characters (so you don't have to spend time working them out - you 'know' them) who basically do bad things because they are bad or good things because they are good. Every now and then we get a hint of something more (Garrosh and Thrall for example) but it is always hampered by the simple fact that nothing you do can be allowed to matter. Because it is a MMORPG you cannot pick sides, cannot change things.
OT but what I would love to see are times when you could. Say there are two factions, Garrosh and Thrall as an obvious example, and over an expansion notes were made on how many people fought for each side, how many quests were done, that sort of thing. Then what happened in the next expansion depended on how the fight went.
That moral ambiguity is something I'd love to see used in the RP community. PVP being the way it is Alliance cannot feud with each other. BUT they can get the Horde to do it for them. If there are Horde and Ally guilds with enough similarity in outlook/aims can they transcend the boundaries of faction and co-operate in some way? Effectively the Horde side harass the Alliance's enemies and vice versa. Probably only works on an RPPVP server unless you set the area of interest as Wintergrasp. Meh. I dunno. I'm in that awkward "want SOMETHING" kind of place with RP.
I disagree with you when it comes to your stance on moral ambiguity, Kelzay. Yes, recently the villains are very much the bad guys, but that's probably to enforce the sense that there is that Big Bad out there who wants nothing more than total <insert evil goals her>. Even waaaay back in TBC we had someone like Maiev killing Illidan. Recently we had Sylvanas facing off against Arthas as well. Hell, in Cataclysm you witness the Horde blowing up nigh elven children at Thal'darah Grove. You can't say that it's solely a black & white affair really, especially when soon we're going to have more of an emphasis on the war between the Alliance and the Horde in the next expansion. Both sides will and have already committed atrocities upon one another. Maybe Blizzard don't hang up a sign saying "MORAL AMBIGUITY HERE", like they do with the good vs evil main plot, but it's certainly there, and it's almost definitely a matter that can be (and has been) expanded upon.
Hell, we even have entire guilds adopting this moral ambiguity into their very concept. The Convocation of Elrendar, The Spine, and even Dagger and Totem to name a few off of the top of my head, and that's only from my experiences Horde-side. Sure, these folks aren't the bad guys, but the former two almost certainly aren't the good guys. The latter, on the other hand, are just !@#$%.
So the potential is there, it's just a matter of finding the key to unlock it. Get some inter-guild RP brewing, and hopefully that will spill out into the rest of the community.
What I do agree with is your overall demeanor, Kelzay. I can only respect someone who arrives in the game in WotLK and within such a short amount of time begins to make efforts to provide RP for the community. I'm sorry that you haven't met with complete success, but stick at it none-the-less if it's something you're adamant on pursuing! Eventually it'll work out. And when in regards to your "want SOMETHING" attitude, I can relate entirely.
The storyline wasnt the point I was trying to force, it was more RP in itself, I led a guild who was so moraly ambigous even I did'nt know the alignment! but the RP was fun and the characters where deeper than the people wearing argent dawn tabards and thinking it a personality, I am admittedly embittered by past events and I'm generalising quite abit.
And your whole arc about big wigs, Its the old high school cool kids thing... *shrugs*
off to work now, I'll write something in alittle more detail in abit.
Ok, guess I am missing sections of the story then. TBC was before my time and TBH I rushed it to get to Northrend. More background reading I should have done :D
I do hope the MoP adds some of that blurring of good and bad into the game.
As for the cool kids comment. Not what was meant at all. What was meant is that they are established, they are known, they are in networks of people they have got to know over the years. That's all. Anyone hangs around long enough, gets involved in enough stuff then they can join the ranks of connected people. It is not about anything more than that.
Look, if you all want some 'Big name' help (Hate that term,) I promise I'll turn up to more events to bring in the punters 'eh?
Seriously though, I'm guilty of not attending enough events recently and I've been known to skip some because there was a lackage of people and I just though, meh I won't be missed. I can see both sides though.
You can't build an event on the foundations that known RPers will attend, but then if they do then that's great because the chances are they will attract other people which is a sad truth.
Back to the subject though, I think there's alot of fear as far as RP goes. Like, everyone wants to make their character as awesome as possible, but can't because they are scared of how people will treat them playing as a Dragon, or a vampire, or a cookie monster. I'm guilty again of looking at people who RP dragons and thinking, "really though?"
I think this is one of Vashs first points which she pointed out, or similar perhaps. Just giving more of a chance to how people would like to RP, and watching the effects it might have on the community. Be it good or bad.
Now before this gets throw around, Im not accusing everyone of hating on Dragons or whatever! I'm just pointing out what Ive seen in the past!
In the wise words of some drunk person I was chatting to the other day. "Don't hate, apriciate!... Bruv."
I RP an numbers-geek accountant who is scared of fire. While I can sort of see the desire to make your character the best at anything I personally find it really hard to RP with someone who is too awesome because the conversation always comes back to how awesome they are...
I'd love to see more local culture. People writing plays and things in the local style, then acting them out (good excuse to go retro raiding for costumes too!). Fashion events, poetry events (in a defined and non-derivative style, not ABAC ABAC....). History evenings, debates, stuff like that. RP sports based on good old /roll macros we could all build.
Less talking and more doing.
There's a huge cloud of fear hanging over the Sha'tar, a fear of being judged and perhaps rightfully so.
We Sha'tarians only seem to accept perfection.
When we meet someone new or read an event the first thing we do is scan for any errors and then get orgasms when we can correct these errors.
Even when we attend an event we will still whine about anything we can, we can't just ignore those lollers, we must be vocal on how they are ruining the event.
We are as creative as the current movie and game market, afraid to try new things and forever stuck in brown/greyish environments looking at the same barrels of the same guns over and over again till it bores us.
And then we complain some more.
What on earth are you talking about, Quincy?
EDIT: The only case I can surmise you are referring to is this: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/927079944?page=1
And that was awful. It was ill-conceived, and was rightfully panned. It bent the lore so much you could make an imperfect circle out of it, and had all the signals of a turgid storyline.
It also happened around eleven months ago.
Edited by Gremkarc on 08/11/2011 20:06 GMT
So where were you for our Hallows event, Quincy? Seeing as you seem so adamant on less talking more doing. Why aren't you doing? I haven't seen you at anything RP wise since Viatrix left.
If you're going to slate people for not doing the least you could do is be sure you weren't one of those not doing.
That said, I don't mean offence, though I know it doesn't sound like it XD. I'm just rather appalled at the "one rule"ism in your post, Quincy.
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